93 posts in this topic

Posted

[quote name='ichi' timestamp='1369520517' post='595713898']
That depends on what's the actual implementation of that "new system". If you had to pay full price to devs and/or MS for second hand games then I don't see how you'd get a dime for your game collection.
[/quote]

I agree, but most people are just making stuff up. Look I agree that Microsoft should have got their stuff together before the conference. I just think most of this stuff is just stupid and people are making a lot bigger deal of all of this.

You know you make a big deal of something and you wasted all of that time complaining and worrying and it turned out that you wasted your time and energy on nothing, that is how I see most of these people freaking out about Xbox One. It's no big deal and people are acting like it's the end of the world.

Maybe, I am older and more mature, or maybe I am more intelligent. At the end of the day, most of the complaints are invalid. I am not saying this because of damage control, but because a lot of the complaints are simply invalid.

I am waiting to see if they allow using apps without Xbox Live Gold, if they still don't allow that, then that is a valid complaint.

We have people complaining about the cloud service that can enhance their games on the console. It's like some Salem Witch hunt where all rationality has gone out of the window and complete panic and FUD has taken over.
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Posted

Why are you waiting to see if they'll allow apps without a gold sub? This is microsoft we're talking about. If you are 'more intelligent' like you think, you should have learned from the past near 8 years that microsoft likes to put everything behind a pay wall and that's highly unlikely to change.
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Posted

[quote name='GP007' timestamp='1369524799' post='595714004']
So take the disc with you? The point is that it sounds like it'll be tied to your account so regardless of what X1 it is, yours, your friends w/e, if you login with your account you can play the game on another system because it's linked to you already. Having the option to d/l it again without the disc is a bonus.
[/quote]

I think you need to re-read my initial post.

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Posted

[quote name='Blackhearted' timestamp='1369529085' post='595714096']
Why are you waiting to see if they'll allow apps without a gold sub? This is microsoft we're talking about. If you are 'more intelligent' like you think, you should have learned from the past near 8 years that microsoft likes to put everything behind a pay wall and that's highly unlikely to change.
[/quote]

Well, because on the original Xbox they didn't have silver and only had gold. Silver is the 360's free account and so I want to see if there are changes like they have in the past. Windows 8 apps hiding behind a pay wall would not make sense.

Rationality >>>>>>>>> Jumping to conclusions

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Posted

If they pass on the savings (which they won't) from the increased profits it could be good, but otherwise it's double dipping and anti-consumer.

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Posted

Jim Sterling takes this opinion apart masterfully, a must watch - [url="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7370-When-The-Starscreams-Kill-Used-Games"]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7370-When-The-Starscreams-Kill-Used-Games[/url]

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Posted

[quote name='Audioboxer' timestamp='1369671204' post='595716996']
Jim Sterling takes this opinion apart masterfully, a must watch - [url="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7370-When-The-Starscreams-Kill-Used-Games"]http://www.escapistm...Kill-Used-Games[/url]
[/quote]

Most who comment about used games have ZERO knowledge about how the business is actually done. Good video.

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Posted

Also this is one of the best posts I've seen in a while on this matter, well put together
[color=#000000][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]

[quote]Well, this is the disconnect I guess. You admit you only hold this view because of the detrimental effects (you think) are impacting the industry. You are asserting that a fundamental aspect of property rights and consumer rights as it has existed since the beginning of trade should be adjusted and recodified on a [i]per-industry basis[/i], not because it's inherently bad or unethical, but just because you think it's a threat to the industry's health. Which means you are essentially arguing for protectionism for corporations--consumers are free to exercise their consumer rights only up to a certain point, but if that free exercise is perceived to threaten the viability of the industry, then their rights must be limited in order to save the industry.

I don't think I can put into words my disgust at this demeaning display of groveling at the feet of your game developer overlords. Even a die-hard laissez-faire capitalist would not be so subservient, because even a capitalist would accept that[i]sometimes industries die[/i] and that's the way the world works. As much as I enjoy games, there is no inherent good in this industry. The ends do not justify the means here; there is nothing that makes the gaming industry [i]inherently[/i] worthy of preservation, not to the point that would justify carving out a special exemption for them where used games are somehow magically not OK when they are OK for every other packaged good on the planet. Just because your favored set of content producers couldn't properly adapt does not justify rewriting the rules of what "property ownership" means and fundamentally removing the ability to preserve, inherit, pass on, lend, and share its products.

The industry does not come first; consumers do. I have no sympathy for an industry that cannot properly stumble its way around a viable secondhand market like every other mature industry in the world. Sometimes your old product just isn't good enough, and the way you solve it is by [i]making a better product[/i], not by forcing consumers to adapt to your archaic and myopic business model with your dying breath. If this industry can't find a way to make money off the primary market -- even with DLC and exclusive pre-order content and HD re-releases and map packs and online passes and annualized sequels and "expanding the audience" and AAA advertising and forced multiplayer -- then, if I may be so blunt,[b][i]**** it[/i][/b]. [i]It doesn't deserve our money in the first place.[/i] If an entire industry has its head so far up its ass, is so focused on short-term gains, and has embraced such a catastrophically stupid blockbuster business model in the pursuit of a stagnant market of hardcore 18-34 dudebros that it thinks it has no choice but to take away our first-sale rights as its last chance of maybe, finally, creating a sustainable stream of profits, then it can [i]go to hell[/i]. It doesn't need your protection, it needs to be taken out back and beaten until it remembers who its real masters are.

I especially have a hard time having any sympathy because so many of the industry's problems are of its own making. They chose to focus on shaderific HD graphics over long-lasting appeal and gameplay; they chose to focus on linear scripted cinematic B-movie imitations that were only good for one playthrough instead of replayability and open-ended design; they chose to pour so much money and marketing into military porn and fetishized violent shootbang Press A to Awesome titles, exactly the kinds of games that hardcore gamers, the [i]most likely gamers to trade in games quickly[/i] were prone to buying and reselling; and perhaps most galling, they chose to give Gamestop loads of exclusive pre-order bonuses while they knew exactly what Gamestop would say to those customers once in the store. They kept making insanely lavish and nonsensical displays of spectacular whizz-bang, despite that being exactly the kind of game most susceptible to trading after one week because there was nothing left to do with it. And now they're discovering that putting so many insanely expensive eggs into one fragile and easily breakable basket is maybe not the most sustainable business model ever.

So forgive me if I find myself not caring one bit when the industry complains that it's just so hard to sell six million copies of Gears of Medal of Battle of Uncharted Angry Dudes VII in the first week and that's why they need to take away used sales for the entire platform. No, the problem isn't at this end.[/quote]
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=59545309&postcount=1361
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Posted

It's still early days. Let's give it a few months and see how things develop. Microsoft is notorious for changing their minds.

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[quote name='Blackhearted' timestamp='1369529085' post='595714096']
Why are you waiting to see if they'll allow apps without a gold sub? This is microsoft we're talking about. If you are 'more intelligent' like you think, you should have learned from the past near 8 years that microsoft likes to put everything behind a pay wall and that's highly unlikely to change.
[/quote]
If they want to do a Store similar to W8 / WP then Gold sub will have to go.

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Posted

[quote name='BajiRav' timestamp='1369755414' post='595719308']

If they want to do a Store similar to W8 / WP then Gold sub will have to go.
[/quote]

Gold sub for apps through a store, if they do it and open it up to 3rd parties, which I think they will otherwise why have it be a part of BUILD 2013? Then yeah, you won't need Gold to use them like on W8 and WP. Gold will still be around though, but for other things I'm sure. They've talked zero about the new Live service apart from saying it's been redone for the X1. That could mean anything really.

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Posted

[quote name='Mephistopheles' timestamp='1369464782' post='595712844']
Why yes, having a different opinion from your own on the Xbox One makes journalists 'Microshills'. You're being ridiculous.

Funny how Valve implemented a similar system with Steam hardly anyone complains about, save for those wanting to pirate games.
[/quote]

Yeah. I personally don't have an issue with some sort of DRM mechanic. But that said, I get concerned because some people simply will not be online with their consoles, or unable to do so. I should still be able to loan my game to a friend if I so desire. I'm sure that used games will be supported. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. But my concern more than anything is with all of these restrictions, they either have to make a boat load of exceptions, or rethink the policy... It really has the potential to, even inadvertently, hinder normal game behavior...

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Posted

[quote name='GP007' timestamp='1369497954' post='595713400']
So MS who does should be getting a small cut then, following the line of thinking so far.
[/quote]

Why should they? To them a used game is a zero sum game. They pay nothing for it, and gain nothing for it. If Microsoft are loosing money on consoles it's their own tough cheese for not using a better business model. It doesn't make it OK to rip gamers off and profitwhore when the purpose behind cutting off used games was to stop studios losing money, not Microsoft. Essentially, what is happening here is that Microsoft are lining their pockets, the developers (the ones actually losing the money) are no better off, and their gamers are a whole lot worse off.

Shows what Microsoft are turning into though tbh (Apple).

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Posted

[quote name='Javik' timestamp='1369760717' post='595719514']
Why should they? To them a used game is a zero sum game. They pay nothing for it, and gain nothing for it. If Microsoft are loosing money on consoles it's their own tough cheese for not using a better business model. It doesn't make it OK to rip gamers off and profitwhore when the purpose behind cutting off used games was to stop studios losing money, not Microsoft. Essentially, what is happening here is that Microsoft are lining their pockets, the developers (the ones actually losing the money) are no better off, and their gamers are a whole lot worse off.

Shows what Microsoft are turning into though tbh (Apple).
[/quote]
How are you sure so sure that Microsoft is going to keep all of the money it gets from used games? What makes you think some of it won't go to the likes of Activision or EA or Ubisoft? Their business model was and probably is going to be "sale hardware at loss, make money in game sales". Every game sold new for Xbox makes Microsoft money. If they wants to broaden their revenue/profit sources, then more power to them (as long as it doesn't get in the way of honest customers).
You are also completely ignoring the fact that publishers and developers have been wanting a slice of the used game sales for a long time now.

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Posted

[quote name='Javik' timestamp='1369760717' post='595719514']
Why should they? To them a used game is a zero sum game. They pay nothing for it, and gain nothing for it. If Microsoft are loosing money on consoles it's their own tough cheese for not using a better business model. It doesn't make it OK to rip gamers off and profitwhore when the purpose behind cutting off used games was to stop studios losing money, not Microsoft. Essentially, what is happening here is that Microsoft are lining their pockets, the developers (the ones actually losing the money) are no better off, and their gamers are a whole lot worse off.

Shows what Microsoft are turning into though tbh (Apple).
[/quote]

You do know that Microsoft also develop games and also lose their royalty fee on each game if it's a used game?

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Posted

[quote name='TheLegendOfMart' timestamp='1369479335' post='595713000']
No we don't know but considering they are going to put this system into place for used games it's not a stretch to assume they are going to do it for rentals as well.

I don't know how to run a business but they get paid for the original sale, if they can't recoup their $150m budget for a game then maybe it's time to downscale things a bit.

What part of what I am saying is defending the PS4?

For all I know PS4 is going to have exact same system in place and I haven't even mentioned PS4 in this topic.

No one is crying either, I am passionate about technology and I like discussing it with like minded people, what I get p*ssed off at is people "crying" because I am speaking bad about their favourite console.

My avatar and sig are ironic, I get accused of being a Sony fanboy or like yourself accusing me of being paid by Sony to trash Microsoft I might as well go all out and don myself with appropriate avatar and signature.

Not sure what scare tactics, propoganda and ignorance I am displaying, I am just using the words Microsoft have put out into the press to discuss the subject.

You are the one getting your panties in a twist because I seemingly am championing one over the other.


Charging for used games isn't going to combat piracy. Pirates are still going to find ways around the restrictions.
[/quote]

I don't care if you talk bad about Xbone. I care because you are ranting and raving and you don't have all the facts. All you have are assumptions.

You are jumping to conclusions because they support your hate. That is not rational.

If you care about technology, you will look at all of the FACTS and decide. E3 is the big show and Microsoft will be telling things up to the very launch of the box. We will not know everything until the full launch. We can know most things by E3.

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Posted

[quote name='TheLegendOfMart' timestamp='1369467140' post='595712878']
Samsung doesn't get a cut of the sale if I sell my TV
LG doesn't get a cut of the sale if I sell my Monitor
Sony doesn't get a cut of the sale if I sell my PS3
Google doesn't get a cut of the sale if I sell my phone
Movie studios don't get a cut of the sale if I sell my movie collection
Intel doesn't get a cut of the sale if I sell my PC
Book publishers don't get a cut of the sale if I sell my book collection

Why should Microsoft/Publishers get a cut of the sale if I sell or buy games?
[/quote]

I am not necessarily saying I disagree, but I think there is a difference to take in to account between a physical item & a piece of software.

A used TV is just that, a used TV. A "used" game is as good as a new game. The developer/publisher isn't getting anything back when someone else is getting a copy of that game. The only reason they can get that software is because it's distributed on a disc.

Personally I think (& I am no expert) MS would be best leaving used games as they are & push strong for digital sales next-gen.

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[quote name='Lamp0' timestamp='1369820675' post='595721022']


I am not necessarily saying I disagree, but I think there is a difference to take in to account between a physical item & a piece of software.

A used TV is just that, a used TV. A "used" game is as good as a new game. The developer/publisher isn't getting anything back when someone else is getting a copy of that game. The only reason they can get that software is because it's distributed on a disc.

Personally I think (& I am no expert) MS would be best leaving used games as they are & push strong for digital sales next-gen.
[/quote]

They did say that each game on the X1 will be available on disc and digitally. So what they could do is offer specials or some type of same day and date access to all games for Gold members only while free users have to wait a bit. This would keep retail happy in the end because if you don't want to wait then you'd go out to get the physical disc copy from a store.

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