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Posted

[quote name='BajiRav' timestamp='1370638985' post='595743830']
the same congress that went on to pass the Patriot act?
[/quote]




That would be the one

[quote name='StephenBratz' timestamp='1370638985' post='595743828']
So with your and Mudslag's comments, it is not any one person's fault if the finger is being pointed at Obama, it is the fault of all of Washington. Unless we want to blame it on someone who is not Obama, then we will blame it on one specific person.
[/quote]


It's not any one person's fault because this isnt run, controlled nor created by any one person or group. This is a collective problem created by all of Washington.

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Posted

[quote name='F_C' timestamp='1370639407' post='595743842']
[size=3][/color][/size]

[size=3][font=Segoe UI, Segoe, Helvetica, Arial, FreeSans, sans-serif][color=#282828]I think the main problem with blaming it on person (whether that be Obama, Bush, or whoever) is it insinuates the idea that once Obama/Bush/whoever is removed from power then all of this will stop and it will get better. [/color][/font][/size]
[size=3][color=#282828]It won't. The whole system is like this.[/color][/size]
[/quote]

No doubt, but it is more than that. The issue is that the current Administration based their entire campaign on stopping this type of thing, that there would be unparalleled transparency. Instead, we have a President that literally does nothing while his minions abuse their power in whatever ways they want for their own personal benefit. And when found out - from Benghazi, IRS, the worsening unemployment numbers, spying on their own citizens, it is everybody else's fault. And rather than fixing it, he stands by and makes it worse. All this after using these same situations for political gain. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfX7RI7DGI8&feature=player_embedded

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Posted

[quote name='mudslag' timestamp='1370639900' post='595743852']
It's not any one person's fault because this isnt run, controlled nor created by any one person or group. This is a collective problem created by all of Washington.
[/quote]

Unless it can be directly blamed on some video maker.
Unless it can be directly blamed on some low-level clerk.
Unless it can be directly blamed on the previous President.
Unless it can be directly blamed on the president from the 1980s.
Unless it can be directly blamed on the opposition party.
Unless it can be directly blamed on an already departing government employee.
Unless it can be directly blamed on racism, sexism, homophobia, hate groups, etc.

If you cannot find some way to blame it on any of these, then we will claim it is the fault of the entire government.
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Posted

[quote name='StephenBratz' timestamp='1370638985' post='595743828']
So with your and Mudslag's comments, it is not any one person's fault if the finger is being pointed at Obama, it is the fault of all of Washington. Unless we want to blame it on someone who is not Obama, then we will blame it on one specific person.
[/quote]

I'm not trying to make any political point or let anyone off the hook. I only pointed out that the problem isn't limited to Obama. You can focus all the blame on him if you want but you'd be missing the point as this is clearly about more than just one man.
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Posted

[quote name='jakem1' timestamp='1370638601' post='595743810']
.....and the military in particular.
[/quote]
eh? What am I missing here? When did the military get involved in this?

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Posted

[quote name='StephenBratz' timestamp='1370640909' post='595743884']
Unless it can be directly blamed on some video maker.
Unless it can be directly blamed on some low-level clerk.
Unless it can be directly blamed on the previous President.
Unless it can be directly blamed on the president from the 1980s.
Unless it can be directly blamed on the opposition party.
Unless it can be directly blamed on an already departing government employee.
Unless it can be directly blamed on racism, sexism, homophobia, hate groups, etc.

If you cannot find some way to blame it on any of these, then we will claim it is the fault of the entire government.
[/quote]


Trying to equate blame on one issue does not equate blame on another unrelated issue. Jakem1 makes the point clear, if all you want to do is point your finger at Obama then you clearly dont care about the facts that made all this happen in the first place. You're bitching for the sake of it. This was a collective part on all of Washington, plain and simple.

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Posted

[quote name='C-Squarez' timestamp='1370639231' post='595743838']
A random persons respect on the internet probably doesn't mean much but I respect this statement. With what's going on, some people still hold firm that it's for the best.

On another note, I remember lurking in conversations where people would predict this kinda stuff and the thumb thugs of Neowin would do what they do and bash them for being "ignorant and paranoid". Now that those tin foil hat wearers seem to be right, I wonder how those aforementioned thumb thugs feel. I wish the hoopla for being right about some "far out conspiracy" was as big as the hoopla for the bashing the "conspiracy theorists" received for being "stupid".
[/quote]The time to believe a claim is when sufficient evidence is presented. This no more vindicated conspiracy theorists than a meteorite impact would vindicate the village idiot for claiming the sky was falling.

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Posted

[quote name='HSoft' timestamp='1370641254' post='595743900']
eh? What am I missing here? When did the military get involved in this?
[/quote]

The NSA as a branch of the military.

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Posted

[quote name='StephenBratz' timestamp='1370640441' post='595743870']
No doubt, but it is more than that. The issue is that the current Administration based their entire campaign on stopping this type of thing, that there would be unparalleled transparency. Instead, we have a President that literally does nothing while his minions abuse their power in whatever ways they want for their own personal benefit. And when found out - from Benghazi, IRS, the worsening unemployment numbers, spying on their own citizens, it is everybody else's fault. And rather than fixing it, he stands by and makes it worse. All this after using these same situations for political gain. For example:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfX7RI7DGI8&feature=player_embedded[/media]
[/quote]
In all fairness, and more or less in keeping with the original point made about you just cannot blame one person, it is not like Obama is the first president to make false promises either. He just had a better marketing campaign team than any previous president and a better spiffier graphic design team as well. As a result perhaps he tricked people even more so then usual into believing the false promises being made. No doubt he had a few focus groups telling him these are the things the people want to hear about. And one cannot take away the fact my man has a way with the words. However at the end of the day it is the sick, twisted and sadistic game they ALL play. No matter what side.

I truly believe that the politics within DC are nothing more and nothing less than a very complex and very convoluted game of war for a very privileged and very isolated small select group of people who are granted membership. A membership that almost always includes a deep affiliation to a corporate entity. The government's only purpose is to keep the government going. It exists for itself and nothing else. They have just duped people into believe the game being played is for the benefit of all Americans. When it has no doubt been proven it only benefits itself.

"The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist."

So while yes, my own personal ideals and beliefs usually tend to align more with the Democratic party, that still does not mean I trust or believe a single one of them.

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Posted

[quote name='mudslag' timestamp='1370641373' post='595743906']
Trying to equate blame on one issue does not equate blame on another unrelated issue. Jakem1 makes the point clear, if all you want to do is point your finger at Obama then you clearly dont care about the facts that made all this happen in the first place. You're bitching for the sake of it. This was a collective part on all of Washington, plain and simple.
[/quote]

The fact is that Obama signed the PATRIOT Sunsets Extension Act of 2011 into law on May 26, 2011. After complaining about the Patriot Act over and over, he could have stood by his word and vetoed it. The Senate had the votes to override the veto, but not the house. So he could have killed the bill. And what has happened since this leaked? A steady stream of it being Republican's fault. I know you are just trying to make sure that the heat is taken off of Obama and spread around so that he walks away unscathed, but when he himself has blamed Bush for this very thing, but he willingly continues it, then it is his fault.

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[quote name='DirtyLarry' timestamp='1370642223' post='595743952']
In all fairness, and more or less in keeping with the original point made about you just cannot blame one person, it is not like Obama is the first president to make false promises either. He just had a better marketing campaign team than any previous president and a better spiffier graphic design team as well. As a result perhaps he tricked people even more so then usual into believing the false promises being made. No doubt he had a few focus groups telling him these are the things the people want to hear about. And one cannot take away the fact my man has a way with the words. However at the end of the day it is the sick, twisted and sadistic game they ALL play. No matter what side.

I truly believe that the politics within DC are nothing more and nothing less than a very complex and very convoluted game of war for a very privileged and very isolated small select group of people who are granted membership. A membership that almost always includes a deep affiliation to a corporate entity. The government's only purpose is to keep the government going. It exists for itself and nothing else. They have just duped people into believe the game being played is for the benefit of all Americans. When it has no doubt been proven it only benefits itself.

"The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist."

So while yes, my own personal ideals and beliefs usually tend to align more with the Democratic party, that still does not mean I trust or believe a single one of them.
[/quote]

Bush got on an aircraft carrier with a "Mission Accomplished" banner hanging in the background. He was directly blamed because he is the Commander In Chief, the Navy is under him, so he should have controlled them better and not posted that sign.
The NSA is a dept of the DOD, which falls under the Executive Branch. The IRS is part of the Treasury, which is under the Executive Branch. The State Department is under the Executive Branch. But the President takes no responsibility for that?

A few weeks ago Axelrod complained that the government is just too big, that one person cannot handle all that happens and that is why we are seeing all these scandals. Of course, that is what the Tea Party was about, reducing the size of the government so that it is more manageable and this type of thing would not happen. And we know how that turned out.

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Posted

[quote name='jakem1' timestamp='1370642146' post='595743950']
The NSA as a branch of the military.
[/quote]


The NSA falls under the DoD but is not under Military control, it is a civilian organization similar to the FBI and CIA

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Posted

I saw President Obama struggling but still wholeheartedly defending this decision. It was jawdropping for me. I was shocked he dared to say it was necessary and calling it an "inconvenience" we have to live with. O-M-G.

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Posted

FISA, Patriot Act, then the recent Supreme Court Decision to allow Cops to take Everybody's DNA... SMH...

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Posted

[quote name='z0phi3l' timestamp='1370643498' post='595743994']


The NSA falls under the DoD but is not under Military control, it is a civilian organization similar to the FBI and CIA
[/quote]

Ultimately it's all the same and forms part of the government's security apparatus.

[quote name='SlimShady' timestamp='1370643634' post='595744002']
I saw President Obama struggling but still wholeheartedly defending this decision. It was jawdropping for me. I was shocked he dared to say it was necessary and calling it an "inconvenience" we have to live with. O-M-G.
[/quote]

It's worse than that:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/us-government-special-privilege-scrutiny-data

This should turn into a full-blown constitutional crisis if enough Americans stand up and do the right thing and enough foreign governments stand up for the rights of their citizens.

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Posted

The problem is that, it doesn't matter if this is common knowledge or secret, it doesn't matter if everyone rebels and this stuff all 'apparently gets stopped', no matter what - this WILL continue to go on and no-one will stop it, no matter what any politician or other high-standing person tells you, it will always exist.

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Posted

The US government aren't going to stand for this, if there's one thing they react big to it's being made to look silly. The people that did this could be in for long prison terms.

(I personally find it funny however)

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Posted

[quote name='StephenBratz' timestamp='1370642998' post='595743984']
Bush got on an aircraft carrier with a "Mission Accomplished" banner hanging in the background. He was directly blamed because he is the Commander In Chief, the Navy is under him, so he should have controlled them better and not posted that sign.
The NSA is a dept of the DOD, which falls under the Executive Branch. The IRS is part of the Treasury, which is under the Executive Branch. The State Department is under the Executive Branch. But the President takes no responsibility for that?
[/quote]

Yes, he should take responsibility for that. Anything that happens under his watch is his responsibility.
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[quote name='TPreston' timestamp='1370641596' post='595743922']
The time to believe a claim is when sufficient evidence is presented. This no more vindicated conspiracy theorists than a meteorite impact would vindicate the village idiot for claiming the sky was falling.
[/quote]

There was a lot of evidence tho. A NSA whistleblower was quoted but for those trolls on Neowin it isn't enough. I remember seeing the topic and the example I used was;

"If Redmak or whatever his name is announced on the forum that Neobond was selling our info I would believe it. Even if you don't believe what's being said, its coming from a source that would know. Its believable."

^^That example was too complex for the minds of Neowin. Some people on the forum need to redefine what they consider proof. Quickly off topic, General Westley Clark in 2007 said that we would go into a number of countries because our military didn't know what to do about terrorism and since we are a hammer, every problem needs to be a nail. He said he was told this right after 9/11 right before we went after Saddam. We've been to just about every country that man named and we are discussing the others. To me, THAT'S enough proof that the war on terror is B.S.

Listen to the whistleblowers! And I didn't mean to stray off topic but I wanted to use another example.

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[quote name='Growled' timestamp='1370665727' post='595744308']
Yes, he should take responsibility for that. Anything that happens under his watch is his responsibility.
[/quote]

Responsibility, yes. But unless he actually ordered it, or knew about it, then the [b]fault[/b] for it isn't his. He's only responsible because he's the top guy.

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[quote name='FloatingFatMan' timestamp='1370704678' post='595744862']
Responsibility, yes. But unless he actually ordered it, or knew about it, then the [b]fault[/b] for it isn't his. He's only responsible because he's the top guy.
[/quote]But what you can also say is that he doesn't find it a big deal, or he doesn't care that much to confront Congress about changing it.

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[quote name='SlimShady' timestamp='1370705292' post='595744874']
But what you can also say is that he doesn't find it a big deal, or he doesn't care that much to confront Congress about changing it.
[/quote]

Of course he doesn't. He's a politician; they ALL want us normal folks monitored.

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