100 posts in this topic

I answered you question multiple times, i.e. "Having a tooth pulled? Getting a tattoo?" You seemed to ignore that

No I did not, I directly address it. "It'll be over soon" sure, that's a valid comment. "Just let it happen"? Not valid in that context at all. It suggests something the party does not wish for, but is going to happen regardless of their will. I would find it a very odd thing for someone to say.

I am not unable to look beyond anything, but I'm just not jumping on the bandwagon, and seeing something that isn't there.

"What isn't there" suggests you do not quite understand etymology as a concept. Everything evolved from somewhere in language. Meanings behind current phrases often carry over the baggage of their original meanings. Would you say "Wait a cotton picking minute"? It's a perfectly acceptable throwaway phrase (see: Yosemite Sam), but the etymology is from the slavery of African Americans, who used to pick cotton in fields. I'm not saying the phrase is wrong, but I am saying that it carries the possibility of offending someone based upon it's origin.

How you can come to that conclusion, from me pointing out the inanity of others seeing sexual innuendo where there was none, is beyond me.

Hence our discussion.

I'm sure you have watched the video by now, hopefully numerous times. What is your genuine opinion on what took place? Do you really think he was referring to dominating her sexually?
Just a yes or no answer to that please, then we can just agree to disagree.

Don't try to force a black and white answer into a grey area! That is how children bicker and we are arguing a topic by discussion. Of course we disagree, and that's absolutely valid - the discussion itself is also equally valid.

My answer: Did he mean to threaten that he was going to figuratively rape her? Obviously not. Does the phrasing of his comment originate from someone asserting their dominance over another against their will? Quite clearly yes.

Do I think he shouldn't have said it? Honestly? I genuinely am unsure. The intention may well have been 100% unrelated to rape, I would suggest this. However, I turn my own argument back on myself: Would I say to an African American "Wait a cotton picking minute"? Hell no, because I am quite aware it could offend by trivialising the origin.

agreed this thread should be closed

Why? Do you not care to take part in such debate? Feel free to not take part in such debate then. Doesn't mean everyone else should follow your lead.

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If there is ever a time to call for rationality this would be that time.

This guy calling for rationality? Someone go check if rain is now falling upwards.

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No I did not, I directly address it. "It'll be over soon" sure, that's a valid comment. "Just let it happen"? Not valid in that context at all. It suggests something the party does not wish for, but is going to happen regardless of their will. I would find it a very odd thing for someone to say.

Since when did "Just let it happen" have any connotation with rape, please explain the history/origin of that. Of course they don't what it to happen, they are getting their arse kicked. It is cringe worthy trash talk, but to automatically associate it with the act of rape? That is down to the mind of the listener.

"What isn't there" suggests you do not quite understand etymology as a concept. Everything evolved from somewhere in language. Meanings behind current phrases often carry over the baggage of their original meanings. Would you say "Wait a cotton picking minute"? It's a perfectly acceptable throwaway phrase (see: Yosemite Sam), but the etymology is from the slavery of African Americans, who used to pick cotton in fields. I'm not saying the phrase is wrong, but I am saying that it carries the possibility of offending someone based upon it's origin.

Because I believe somebody didn't mean something, and people are taking it to mean something else, that now equates to me not understanding the concept of etymology? Please do not insult my intelligence.

Again, show me the history of this term, as you have with the cotton picking example. Where and when it has ever been used with regards to rape.

Quite clearly.

Blindly.

Don't try to force a black and white answer into a grey area! That is how children bicker. Adults argue a topic by discussion. Of course we disagree, and that's absolutely valid - the discussion itself is also equally valid.

Insinuating that I am a bickering child because I want a straight answer. Nice.

My answer: Did he mean to threaten that he was going to figuratively rape her? Obviously not. Does the phrasing of his comment originate from someone asserting their dominance over another against their will? Quite clearly yes.

Show me this origin you keep trying to hammer home.

Do I think he shouldn't have said it? Honestly? I genuinely am unsure. The intention may well have been 100% unrelated to rape, I would suggest this. However, I turn my own argument back on myself: Would I say to an African American "Wait a cotton picking minute"? Hell no, because I am quite aware it could offend by trivialising the origin.

To my mind, one has a genuine history that can be traced. The other does not. So until proven otherwise (which I would be wholly willing to accept), I think we are at an impasse.

I would also appreciate it if you would stop trying to belittle me.

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Since when did "Just let it happen" have any connotation with rape, please explain the history/origin of that.

"Just take it" "don't fight it" etc. Plenty of rape victims say that is what their rapist tells them. Hell, some people have advised women to "just let it happen" if they are being raped. usually men offer women this advice. I think I posted a story about some religious leader encouraging rape victims not to fight back and just let their rapist get it over with.

It's like when child molesters tell children "tell tell any adults because no one will believe you". If you've ever listened to evidence given about a trial involving such crimes you see these themes are pretty common.

Edit: why the hell did you put everything in a big quote block? Made it harder to quote you.

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Since when did "Just let it happen" have any connotation with rape, please explain the history/origin of that. Of course they don't what it to happen, they are getting their arse kicked. It is cringe worthy trash talk, but to automatically associate it with the act of rape? That is down to the mind of the listener.

"Just let it happen" - what do YOU think is the origin? How can YOU justify that is has anything other than links with something happening to someone against their will? I didn't associate it with rape, I associated it one person asserting their dominance with another against their will.

Because I believe somebody didn't mean something, and people are taking it to mean something else, that now equates to me not understanding the concept of etymology? Please do not insult my intelligence.

No, because you have suggested that something "isn't there" simply because you cannot see back far enough. I'm not calling your intelligence into play here. You originally stated you had no understanding of what etymology is - not me!

Again, show me the history of this term, as you have with the cotton picking example. Where and when it has ever been used with regards to rape.

I think you are now acting deliberately blind to things in an attempt to make a point. Do you genuinely suggest that this phrase, in the context of asserting dominance holds no origin?

Blindly.

I could argue this point against you. Great!?

Insinuating that I am a bickering child because I want a straight answer. Nice.

Stating that a black/white answer in a very interpretive subject is far from conclusive and below the level of the argument. If you take that personally, that's your problem and not mine.

Show me this origin you keep trying to hammer home.

Again, I feel that you are acting deliberately naive. In the context of one person dominating another against their will (which fits perfectly with beating someone in a game - in a jocular way) - if you genuinely cannot make the connection - then how can I ever prove it to you? You clearly are against making that connection. There are many reenactments of rape, forced dominance and such that use this and similar phrases. Much akin to "It's better for you if you don't fight it" and such phrases. Do I have access to every phrase uttered during such situations? Clearly not. But I do have recollection of such news articles an so on - which is the way that language works - word of mouth.

To my mind, one has a genuine history that can be traced. The other does not. So until proven otherwise (which I would be wholly willing to accept), I think we are at an impasse.

If we had access to the words spoken during rape situations, I am 100% certain the other would be provable, but I do agree we are at an impasse. Which is why I call this now a discussion rather than an argument.

I would also appreciate it if you would stop trying to belittle me.

I'm genuinely not. If you feel belittled, that is your issue, because I am quite enjoying this discussion with you.

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for gods sake ppl it was someat in the heat of the moment, im pretty sure if it was a guy sitting next to him he'd of said more or less the same thing if not worse. he was probably being polite cus she was a woman, when ppl get into stuff like that anything comes out of there mouth.

This is whats wrong with the world to many sensitive people around, dont like it go wrap yourself in cotton wool and click your heels 3 times saying theres no place like home... congrats to entering the boring place

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I know it's very easy to say things like "Look it's just a joke, get over it" or "You're just overthinking it".

Problem is, that vague references and jokes like this can perpetuate an ideal that it's a comedic subject.

You're not going to win with people that don't get it, or most likely don't want to get it. Just be glad Microsoft did. I'm sure you've been in online multiplayer. You really think those types of dudes that get off on talking like that don't get it? Or are happy that Microsoft has apologized for it? What MS said was tame and borderline compared to the real deal.

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Casual rape jokes are normalized far beyond just games culture. Back in the 90s, we (Texans) had a gubernatorial candidate Clayton Williams who was asked about rape and joked ?if it?s inevitable, just relax and enjoy it.? Yes. That?s real life. Several years before that, Tex Antoine, a New York City weatherman (but originally from Texas? damnit) joked, while responding to a story about a 5-year old girl who was violently raped, ?With rape so predominant in the news lately, it is well to remember the words of Confucius: ?If rape is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it.?? Also real life. And those are just two examples I knew off the top of my head. - See more at: http://gamersagainstbigotry.org/2013/06/why-just-let-it-happen-itll-be-over-soon-is-a-rape-joke-and-extremely-problematic/#sthash.Oh8YgvfS.dpuf'>http://gamersagainstbigotry.org/2013/06/why-just-let-it-happen-itll-be-over-soon-is-a-rape-joke-and-extremely-problematic/#sthash.Oh8YgvfS.dpuf

http://gamersagainstbigotry.org/2013/06/why-just-let-it-happen-itll-be-over-soon-is-a-rape-joke-and-extremely-problematic/

for gods sake ppl it was someat in the heat of the moment, im pretty sure if it was a guy sitting next to him he'd of said more or less the same thing if not worse. he was probably being polite cus she was a woman, when ppl get into stuff like that anything comes out of there mouth.

This is whats wrong with the world to many sensitive people around, dont like it go wrap yourself in cotton wool and click your heels 3 times saying theres no place like home... congrats to entering the boring place

And because it's in the heat of the moment it's ok? What an idiotic response - the level of conversation in here is a bit higher than this, I'd have hoped.

You're not going to win with people that don't get it, or most likely don't want to get it. Just be glad Microsoft did. I'm sure you've been in online multiplayer. You really think those types of dudes that get off on talking like that don't get it? Or are happy that Microsoft has apologized for it? What MS said was tame and borderline compared to the real deal.

Not really about winning, I think Darkfiber and I are/were enjoying the discussion. But yes, Microsoft have publicly apologised for what was said - which sort of proves the point.

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no booth babes, rape jokes or degrading woman?

Worst. Party. Ever.

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Would the same outrage have occurred if it was two guys? I threaten to rape my friends all the time when gaming, saying far more offensive things than I'd like to admit and yes, some of them are women. But it is just trash-talk and equality - although, granted the boundary is far more reserved with my female friends, but isn't that in a sense inequality?

Mountains and mole hills by the Twitter populace as per.

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ok Nik louch, have you never said anything in the heat of the moment???

Men talk to each other like that all the time, woman want equal rights well they can be talked to like that, most even find it funny. i bet the woman who it was said to didnt take offense and dont give me any crap about talking to "ladies" cus there isnt many of them left in the world im telling ya, and if there is there old because those ideologies were decades ago.

Before you give me any things about "ladies" do ladies go round punching ppl, getting drunk out there minds going commando (no knickers) cus its easier access and sitting in a puddle of there own sick??? even the posh ones do it. theres not many ladies or gentlemen left, the lines are blurred and tbh the world is better for it. dont want walk around treading on eggshells, i give woman lots of crap in a humourous context and they love it even if they dont admit it, if she aint bothered why is everyone else?

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But it is just trash-talk and equality

It is trash talk, and not suggesting that it's in any way unacceptable. Would the context differ between two men? Slightly. Would the underlying meaning based upon origin? Not at all. THAT's where the joke is formed, it's the whole point of the phrase. It's what makes it "funny".

It is trash talk, of course. But it's not JUST trash talk.

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ok Nik louch, have you never said anything in the heat of the moment???

Of course I have. Where did I say I hadn't. Where did I say it was wrong. What point are you even trying to argue here?

Men talk to each other like that all the time, woman want equal rights well they can be talked to like that, most even find it funny. i bet the woman who it was said to didnt take offense

And... So...? What point are you making? I've never disputed this!?

dont give me any crap about talking to "ladies" cus there isnt many of them left in the world im telling ya

A somewhat troubling and misogynistic view you have there... I think you need to reevaluate who you associate with if you don't have any "ladies" in your circle.

and if there is there old because those ideologies were decades ago.

Really? Again, I disagree. I know some sluts, I know some women and I know some who I would most certainly class as "ladies".

Before you give me any things about "ladies" do ladies go round punching ppl, getting drunk out there minds going commando (no knickers) cus its easier access and sitting in a puddle of there own sick???

You are describing one type of women. Go on, where are you heading with this?

even the posh ones do it

Acting with class has nothing to do with economic standing. Where are you taking this argument?

theres not many ladies or gentlemen left

In your social circle maybe!?

the lines are blurred and tbh the world is better for it

You just argued that women sit in their own vomit and wear no underwear for easier access. Are you a little confused?

i give woman lots of crap in a humourous context and they love it even if they dont admit it

Oh you absolute charmer, you! Right... Hmmmmm - I find the phrase "They love it even if they don't admit it" to be questionable...

if she aint bothered why is everyone else?

You have no way to know whether she is or is not bothered. Moreover, do you have to be black to find racism offensive? Do you have to be disabled to find mocking a paraplegic offensive?

I think your arguments are quite poor.

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"Just let it happen" - what do YOU think is the origin? How can YOU justify that is has anything other than links with something happening to someone against their will? I didn't associate it with rape, I associated it one person asserting their dominance with another against their will.

That's fine, I am in agreement with that. In that he was kicking her arse, and therefore dominating her in a fighting game.

No, because you have suggested that something "isn't there" simply because you cannot see back far enough. I'm not calling your intelligence into play here. You originally stated you had no understanding of what etymology is - not me!

How far back do I need to look before I find the source?

Just because I had forgotten the meaning of a word and had to look up, does not mean I do not understand it's concept. Turns out I actually love etymology, and have always found it very interesting.

I think you are now acting deliberately blind to things in an attempt to make a point. Do you genuinely suggest that this phrase, in the context of asserting dominance holds no origin?

What? No. I'm just saying that I don't see the origin being based in rape.

I could argue this point against you. Great!?

You understand where I was coming from with the Beavis and Butthead thing, right? "hu huhu huhuhu, she said fight stick". That is how I see some peoples reaction to this.

Stating that a black/white answer in a very interpretive subject is far from conclusive and below the level of the argument. If you take that personally, that's your problem and not mine.

I just wanted a clear simple answer on where you stood on one facet of this of this debate. You answered it well, apart from the thinly veiled insult.

Again, I feel that you are acting deliberately naive. In the context of one person dominating another against their will (which fits perfectly with beating someone in a game - in a jocular way) - if you genuinely cannot make the connection - then how can I ever prove it to you? You clearly are against making that connection. There are many reenactments of rape, forced dominance and such that use this and similar phrases. Much akin to "It's better for you if you don't fight it" and such phrases. Do I have access to every phrase uttered during such situations? Clearly not. But I do have recollection of such news articles an so on - which is the way that language works - word of mouth.

Of course I can make the connection, as I can with many things in life, if I so chose. But I think to do so in this case is juvenile. I am not above being juvenile, believe me, I am no stranger to the joys of a well timed "yeah, like you mum" joke.

I can totally see how it could be interrupted that way, but i truly believe that it was not said or implied that way. Hence the outrage is unfounded.

If we had access to the words spoken during rape situations, I am 100% certain the other would be provable, but I do agree we are at an impasse. Which is why I call this now a discussion rather than an argument.

I agree that it could be proven, I can imagin it being said in that scenario, but I don't see it as being a commonly used phrase, even in jest. It's sick and depraved, and I cannot for a moment imagine that guy even remotely referring to that.

Just because some sick **** has uttered those words, dose not make that the origin. Do you remember that classic scene from Police Story, with the cactus? Innuendo can be derived from just about anything.

I'm genuinely not. If you feel belittled, that is your issue, because I am quite enjoying this discussion with you.

Calling my remarks inane, the bickering child thing, etc. It's just not needed.

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"Just take it" "don't fight it" etc. Plenty of rape victims say that is what their rapist tells them. Hell, some people have advised women to "just let it happen" if they are being raped. usually men offer women this advice. I think I posted a story about some religious leader encouraging rape victims not to fight back and just let their rapist get it over with.

It's like when child molesters tell children "tell tell any adults because no one will believe you". If you've ever listened to evidence given about a trial involving such crimes you see these themes are pretty common.

Edit: why the hell did you put everything in a big quote block? Made it harder to quote you.

Well I can't say I have much experience with rape victims, or the evidence of child molestation cases. How many people that are bitching about this on twitter do?

I have seen the error of my ways, regarding quotes (Y)

/snip

I lol'd

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All I can say is, if people stopped trying to frame this in the context of rape, and framed it instead in a gaming/Xbox Live context, it makes perfect sense. When you beat someone in a game, you are 'asserting dominance' over them, at least temporarily and in the context of the game. Someone could have made this comment about a game of checkers, for ****'s sake.

The only reason this became a big deal is because a bunch of non-gamers were watching (or more likely hearing about on Twitter, getting offended on someone else's behalf, going on a moral crusade) a gaming event and do not understand the "live gaming culture".

If they think that was rapey and offensive, heaven help them the first time they get 'teabagged' in Halo :laugh:

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anyone who sees rape in that must have been raped at some point in their life. I'm sorry they had to go through that, but not everything is about rape.

I talk smack to my girl all the time when we're playing games, does that mean I want to rape her or beat her too?

what about when I talk smack to my bros, does that mean I want to rape them too?

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People are just reaching.. But DAMN.. How much negative press can a console get.. I really hope Microsoft listens.

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what about when I talk smack to my bros, does that mean I want to rape them too?

Wow... I'm done here - it seems some people can clearly not follow an argument (DF: I don't mean you - I was enjoying our back & forth).

I clearly have said "No it doesn't mean you want to rape them". It means you wish to dominate them in game. Fine. Except the phrase has it's roots back in other forms of domination, and using it in a joking way - well it's perfectly acceptable for some to see that as belittling a harrowing crime.

But hey, if people can't keep up, that is their problem.

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The whole tone of this thread reflects a hostility towards women. Are you aware of how hostile the gaming community is towards female gamers, and how often the word and idea of rape get thrown around as an insult? It's not particularly surprising some people would view that display at E3 to be, at the very least, in poor taste.

I don't think people in this thread are hostile towards women. I think you're mistaking the tone of negativity for the people that made this an issue to begin with (which includes men) with hostility towards women. No one is singling out women and attacking them and no one is denying the gender inequality issues women face in gaming.

What? Less negative than being stupid or of being a Nazi/fascist?

You didn't answer my question. If they used more positive words, would you still use the same "A lot of angry men on Neowin, it seems." blanket statement? You generalized most of the people in this thread because of 2 posts (2 out of 32 at the time).

Some people mightn't see the problem, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. People in this thread have been entirely dismissive of this issue. One or two people may have made a reasoned response, but most were just along the lines of "Oh women complaining ..Here we go again..". This topic reeks of male privilege.

It seems any woman who advocates for women's rights is a "militant feminist". Like any atheist who advocates for secularism is a "militant atheist".

What you said reminds me of a video I watched awhile ago. It was about a men's rights activist bringing up the issue of false rape allegations that have drastic consequences for the men involved. The feminists around him, which included one man, completely ignored what he had to say and accused him of ignoring the issue of real rape victims. What they didn't realize is that the man reported on real rape victims for a long time and only recently switched his focus to false rape allegations against men.

I think you're confusing some people's focus on this specific issue for dismissal of an even greater issue. I don't see how that has to do with "male privilege". And I also think you're viewing this thread with a lens of hostility. When did anyone say something similar to, "Oh women complaining ..Here we go again"? The person that popularized what happened on Twitter is a male game developer. Any issues we have with how this was perceived is with people (men and women) and not just women.

Anyway, there's a big difference between advocating for women's rights and advocating against men's rights but that's a debate for another thread.

That's all very well and good but if re-read what I said, you'll find I didn't mention the event at all - but rather the reactions to it. In this thread, and elsewhere.

You didn't have to mention the event because we're obviously on the same topic here. You mentioned the reactions to what happened and I addressed why the reactions happened. Gender inequality issues are a real thing for women in gaming but that doesn't mean we're ignoring it or disagree with it simply because we disagree with this specific case. It's unfortunate that some people said awful things on Twitter but that certainly doesn't reflect our community here. I just think it's a little unfair to lump Neowinians with silly men/boys that have nothing better to do than hate on women online.

All I can say is, if people stopped trying to frame this in the context of rape, and framed it instead in a gaming/Xbox Live context, it makes perfect sense. When you beat someone in a game, you are 'asserting dominance' over them, at least temporarily and in the context of the game. Someone could have made this comment about a game of checkers, for ****'s sake.

The only reason this became a big deal is because a bunch of non-gamers were watching (or more likely hearing about on Twitter, getting offended on someone else's behalf, going on a moral crusade) a gaming event and do not understand the "live gaming culture".

If they think that was rapey and offensive, heaven help them the first time they get 'teabagged' in Halo :laugh:

I think that's a big issue. Some people associate dominance with rape because women are perceived to be helpless when they've been raped by an evil strong man. Rape is an awful thing but I don't think it should be extended to other stuff, so much that men have to be careful of what they say because they may be seen as supporting rape. "Just let it happen, it'll be over soon." is a good example. Am I not allowed to say that to a woman? What about a man? What if I said that to a dog? What if a woman said that to me? Is she allowed to say it because women don't rape men? That's the major problem with framing something as harmless as that sentence as rape-y.

And I think you're right Charisma. A lot of women don't play games for various reasons but some of the ones active on social networks are firm supporters of feminism. I can see why they saw that as an issue without considering the gaming aspect of it. A bunch of people got offended on Twitter for various reasons and this was blown way out of proportion.

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I don't think people in this thread are hostile towards women. I think you're mistaking the tone of negativity for the people that made this an issue to begin with (which includes men) with hostility towards women. No one is singling out women and attacking them and no one is denying the gender inequality issues women face in gaming.

This issue has been summarised in this thread like so:

A non issue

anyone offended should "see a shrink"

feminazis up to their old tricks

this:

Im-offended-that-means-Im-right.jpeg

people who have a problem with this should just go and get laid

morons

accusations of white knighting

If that isn't hostile, what would you describe it as?

You didn't answer my question. If they used more positive words, would you still use the same "A lot of angry men on Neowin, it seems." blanket statement? You generalized most of the people in this thread because of 2 posts (2 out of 32 at the time).

No. Because if they didn't display hostility I wouldn't think they were being angry jerks. My point was that this thread is wholly dismissive of the issue and hostile to anyone who thinks otherwise. The examples above, which are greater than 2, make that clear.

Add in the fact that some comments some people have made on this site in topics concerning sexual assault, women's rights, rape etc. are informing my view that there are a lot of angry men on this site. There was one particularly awful topic awhile ago which almost made me leave the site entirely.

What you said reminds me of a video I watched awhile ago. It was about a men's rights activist bringing up the issue of false rape allegations that have drastic consequences for the men involved. The feminists around him, which included one man, completely ignored what he had to say and accused him of ignoring the issue of real rape victims. What they didn't realize is that the man reported on real rape victims for a long time and only recently switched his focus to false rape allegations against men.

OK. And?... False rape allegations do happen and not only are they damaging to the man accused but also damaging to the victims of actual rape because some people think lots of women cry rape when it hasn't actually happened. In any case, rape going unreported or being poorly prosecuted is far more common than false allegations.

I think you're confusing some people's focus on this specific issue for dismissal of an even greater issue. I don't see how that has to do with "male privilege". And I also think you're viewing this thread with a lens of hostility. When did anyone say something similar to, "Oh women complaining ..Here we go again"? The person that popularized what happened on Twitter is a male game developer. Any issues we have with how this was perceived is with people (men and women) and not just women.

No, I am just willing to admit when I see people dismissing an issue because it doesn't effect them. That is pretty much the definition of privilege.

White person: That isn't racist. Get a sense of humour!

Straight person: That isn't homophobic, stop making mountains out of mole hills!

Man: We were just having a little fun, sweetheart, lighten up!

When you're in the position of privilege you don't appreciate what it is like not to be and can dismiss all types of bigotry.

Anyway, there's a big difference between advocating for women's rights and advocating against men's rights but that's a debate for another thread.

But you'll bring it up anyway? Who is advocating against men's rights? No one.

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This issue has been summarised in this thread like so:

A non issue

anyone offended should "see a shrink"

feminazis up to their old tricks

this:

Im-offended-that-means-Im-right.jpeg

people who have a problem with this should just go and get laid

morons

accusations of white knighting

If that isn't hostile, what would you describe it as?

]

No. Because if they didn't display hostility I wouldn't think they were being angry jerks. My point was that this thread is wholly dismissive of the issue and hostile to anyone who thinks otherwise. The examples above, which are greater than 2, make that clear.

Add in the fact that some comments some people have made on this site in topics concerning sexual assault, women's rights, rape etc. are informing my view that there are a lot of angry men on this site. There was one particularly awful topic awhile ago which almost made me leave the site entirely.

]

OK. And?... False rape allegations do happen and not only are they damaging to the man accused but also damaging to the victims of actual rape because some people think lots of women cry rape when it hasn't actually happened. In any case, rape going unreported or being poorly prosecuted is far more common than false allegations.

]

No, I am just willing to admit when I see people dismissing an issue because it doesn't effect them. That is pretty much the definition of privilege.

White person: That isn't racist. Get a sense of humour!

Straight person: That isn't homophobic, stop making mountains out of mole hills!

Man: We were just having a little fun, sweetheart, lighten up!

When you're in the position of privilege you don't appreciate what it is like not to be and can dismiss all types of bigotry.

]

But you'll bring it up anyway? Who is advocating against men's rights? No one.

No, it hasn't. Stop trying to paint the people in this thread in a negative light just because a few people chose their words poorly. You wouldn't be saying the same if a female dismissed the issue which did happen (see here and here). You seem so focused on the "hostility" or to use a better word, "negativity" but do you realize that just because someone is angry about something doesn't mean they're wrong? As I said before, this is a specific case that we're disagreeing with. Most of us here may happen to be male but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to disagree with an issue like this.

From my perspective, you have an issue with the people that responded to the issue in an immature way. And it turns out I was right. Most people in this thread were dismissive of the issue for valid reasons, not because they disagree with feminism in general. Who cares if they're angry. Anger is a valid emotion and we're allowed to express it just like happiness and sadness. The fact that you dwell on that so much troubles me. If the way people express their emotions bother you so much, then you need to grow some thicker skin.

You're not even focused on why we're disagreeing with the issue. Instead, you're focused on the way people expressed their emotions in response to it and painted them in a bad light because of that. I'd say that's a variation of an appeal to emotion (which is a logical fallacy). You associated negative emotions with people in this thread and disagreed with their position based on that.

The reason I brought up that example was to highlight a point. Most people in this thread disagreed with the issue. You took offence to their negativity and the way they responded and called them out for dismissing the issue rather than addressing why they dismissed. You could have brought up points of your own to show why this specific case was an issue, but you didn't.

Also, the privilege examples you brought up don't help your argument at all. It's entirely possible to be a white heterosexual male and disagree with what is seen as an issue against females (e.g. see the 2 posts I linked to above).

Anyway, I expressed my stance on the issue more than once and I'd like to know why you think this specific case is valid. Simply saying, "Women's rights issues are a real thing in gaming." doesn't count.

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No, it hasn't. Stop trying to paint the people in this thread in a negative light just because a few people chose their words poorly. You wouldn't be saying the same if a female dismissed the issue which did happen (see here and here). You seem so focused on the "hostility" or to use a better word, "negativity" but do you realize that just because someone is angry about something doesn't mean they're wrong? As I said before, this is a specific case that we're disagreeing with. Most of us here may happen to be male but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to disagree with an issue like this.

People didn't "choose their words poorly" they posted childish responses which I challenged. The fact that 2 women (one random twitter person who could be completely full of **** - and another who seems to contradict herself by liking my fist post in this topic) didn't see the problem with this is irrelevant, it doesn't address the issue of sexism in gaming at all, it makes excuses for it by saying "well, see, some women are completely fine with being treated poorly".

From my perspective, you have an issue with the people that responded to the issue in an immature way. And it turns out I was right. Most people in this thread were dismissive of the issue for valid reasons, not because they disagree with feminism in general. Who cares if they're angry. Anger is a valid emotion and we're allowed to express it just like happiness and sadness. The fact that you dwell on that so much troubles me. If the way people express their emotions bother you so much, then you need to grow some thicker skin.

What's valid about saying "this issue doesn't effect me therefore it is a none issue?" Nothing.

I'm not dwelling on it, this is a forum where people express ideas and exchange opinions. I am taking the unpopular opinion so that means I am dwelling on it? Now you're dismissing my opinion because you disagree with it. LOL!

I am not thin-skinned, I disagree with the way people express themselves on this issue. Seems like a completely vali position to me. I think you're grasping because you have no ground left to defend. Attacking me as being thin-skinned doesn't strengthen your position one iota.

You're not even focused on why we're disagreeing with the issue. Instead, you're focused on the way people expressed their emotions in response to it and painted them in a bad light because of that. I'd say that's a variation of an appeal to emotion (which is a logical fallacy). You associated negative emotions with people in this thread and disagreed with their position based on that.

I have pointed out why I think people are disagreeing: male privilege. It doesn't effect anyone in this thread because they're men and rape jokes don't bother them so much so they dismiss the issue.

The reason I brought up that example was to highlight a point. Most people in this thread disagreed with the issue. You took offence to their negativity and the way they responded and called them out for dismissing the issue rather than addressing why they dismissed. You could have brought up points of your own to show why this specific case was an issue, but you didn't.

Why do you keep saying I am offended? I'm not. I don't throw that word around. You're trying to make this an emotional issue by accusing me of being offended and thin skinned. I've calmly made my points which people are free to agree or is agree with.

It's also worth noting that I haven't actually said whether I think this incident was sexist or if the joke made was rape-related. I have stated that the gaming culture has a problem with sexism, misogyny , abuse and with using the notion of rape as an insult. You've completely ignored that in favour of getting up on your high horse in an attempt to display your superior intellect.

Also, the privilege examples you brought up don't help your argument at all. It's entirely possible to be a white heterosexual male and disagree with what is seen as an issue against females (e.g. see the 2 posts I linked to above).

Anyway, I expressed my stance on the issue more than once and I'd like to know why you think this specific case is valid. Simply saying, "Women's rights issues are a real thing in gaming." doesn't count.

Now you're just being obtuse. My examples were to illustrate people with privilege dismissing serious issues that effect people without privilege.

Again, if you had read the whole topic you'd see I didn't say anything about this specific case beyond pointing out sexism and abuse directed towards women in gaming and why people might construe the comments made as misogynistic.

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People didn't "choose their words poorly" they posted childish responses which I challenged. The fact that 2 women (one random twitter person who could be completely full of **** - and another who seems to contradict herself by liking my fist post in this topic) didn't see the problem with this is irrelevant, it doesn't address the issue of sexism in gaming at all, it makes excuses for it by saying "well, see, some women are completely fine with being treated poorly".

The first reason I replied to you was because of this statement: "A lot of angry men on Neowin, it seems." Your subsequent replies were attempts at reinforcing your argument that Neowin has a lot of angry, hostile and sexist men. I tried to illustrate the point that the few people who used poor words and negative language were not representative of the men of Neowin. This thread isn't about addressing the issue of sexism. That requires a lot more work from a lot more people (both men and women) so I agree with you. Misogyny is a sad an unavoidable issue that needs to be dealt with.

What's valid about saying "this issue doesn't effect me therefore it is a none issue?" Nothing.

I'm not dwelling on it, this is a forum where people express ideas and exchange opinions. I am taking the unpopular opinion so that means I am dwelling on it? Now you're dismissing my opinion because you disagree with it. LOL!

I am not thin-skinned, I disagree with the way people express themselves on this issue. Seems like a completely vali position to me. I think you're grasping because you have no ground left to defend. Attacking me as being thin-skinned doesn't strengthen your position one iota.

Who said that? You're cherry picking (another logical fallacy). You're pointing out a few examples that support your argument while ignoring the rest of us that disagreed with the issue in a mature and respectful manner. I'm not saying you can't disagree with how someone expresses their disagreement with an issue. But to infer that they're angry about something or believe it doesn't affect them because of privilege isn't right. The issue I have is your focus on how someone disagreed with something rather than why. In this case, valid counterpoints were brought up to oppose the issue but you completely ignored that and swept most of us under the "angry men" rug.

I have pointed out why I think people are disagreeing: male privilege. It doesn't effect anyone in this thread because they're men and rape jokes don't bother them so much so they dismiss the issue.

And I disagree with you. I've read various tweets and comments, from women, that disagree with it. Do they disagree with it because of male privilege? It seems like you don't want men to disagree with it because they're men. I spoke to my sister and mother about it and they too disagree. To imply that men are not allowed to express disagreement, in any manner (e.g. angrily, happily, sadly), because they're less likely to get raped is unfair.

Why do you keep saying I am offended? I'm not. I don't throw that word around. You're trying to make this an emotional issue by accusing me of being offended and thin skinned. I've calmly made my points which people are free to agree or is agree with.

It's also worth noting that I haven't actually said whether I think this incident was sexist or if the joke made was rape-related. I have stated that the gaming culture has a problem with sexism, misogyny , abuse and with using the notion of rape as an insult. You've completely ignored that in favour of getting up on your high horse in an attempt to display your superior intellect.

It seemed like you were offended. You disagreed with the emotional aspect of people's disagreement so this was an emotional issue from the start. I merely pointed out that only a few people made posts that can be seen as "negative". Then you brought up the issue of gender inequality as a whole. And how people may not see the problem in this specific case but that the problem exists on a larger scale. As I said before, no one denied that. No one said "Oh, because the problem doesn't exist here... it isn't an issue at all for women in gaming." I certainly never ignored it and I've said it multiple times. What else do you want me to say other than, "I agree with you and I acknowledge the problem of sexism, misogyny, and abuse in the gaming industry."

Superior intellect? I'm not trying to display anything. I have nothing against you, compl3x. I'm not trying to be an condescending and I'm not picking on you because you have an opinion that isn't shared by many here.

Now you're just being obtuse. My examples were to illustrate people with privilege dismissing serious issues that effect people without privilege.

Again, if you had read the whole topic you'd see I didn't say anything about this specific case beyond pointing out sexism and abuse directed towards women in gaming and why people might construe the comments made as misogynistic.

You didn't. You stated quite clearly that you had an issue with how people responded to the issue. That's why I asked you why you think this case is valid. But enough about that. We can agree to disagree.

However, I'd like to say something. Maybe you don't have an issue with the emotions expressed but the reasons why they expressed it. It may be because they're in a privileged position (one where men are less likely to get raped). It may be because of misogyny. The bottom line is, the reasons why have to be addressed and not the resulting emotions aroused by the reasons.

With that said, I can't say I agree with some of the other posts in this thread.

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