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#31 threetonesun

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:50

Digital is great for movies, TV, and (more-or-less) music.

 

However, I much prefer to keep my games physical. Licenses and servers expire...

 

Discs wear out, RAM goes faulty. You still have a license to the physical media, you can't make copies on a whim.




#32 Jason Stillion

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:54

I hope Mass Cause (Mass Effect prequel) goes digital only and puts Gamestop out of business.

 

 

 

You do realize the old XboxOne business model before Microsoft did a 180 allowed Gamestop to be a place you can resell your game license to. 



Discs wear out, RAM goes faulty. You still have a license to the physical media, you can't make copies on a whim.

I have Xbox (Original) Content I can never re-download due to live being discontinued, yet I have SNES carts and Ps1 games that work perfectly fine even now. 



#33 Lord Method Man

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:58

You do realize the old XboxOne business model before Microsoft did a 180 allowed Gamestop to be a place you can resell your game license to. 


I have Xbox (Original) Content I can never re-download due to live being discontinued, yet I have SNES carts and Ps1 games that work perfectly fine even now. 

 

 

Who cares? According to most "gamers" here you should only be playing the most recent bleeding-edge "AAA" Call of DLC release anyway.



#34 xWhiplash

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:59

Discs wear out, RAM goes faulty. You still have a license to the physical media, you can't make copies on a whim.

 

You do know hard drives fail as well right?  What happens if you are really REALLY into gaming and have download 20 (or more) games and your hard drive dies?

 

Statistics are very very unlikely to have all 20 discs be unreadable at the same time unless something wacky happens.



#35 Yusuf M.

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:23

remember before iphone came out, how ridiculous data prices and bandwidth were? when there is demand for tens of gigs for games, you will see the internet provider industry shift towards accommodating such needs.

If only the same kind of progress can be made with dedicated Internet connections. Unfortunately, it's an issue with the infrastructure otherwise Internet service providers would offer competitive speeds and pricing with very high bandwidth limits (or none at all). I'm with a small ISP right now and my monthly bandwidth limit is 300 GB. The reason it's so high is because the subscriber number is low. Most people are with bigger ISPs and they're forced to pay high prices for low monthly bandwidth limits. It sucks, but that's the unfortunate truth.

 

Discs wear out, RAM goes faulty. You still have a license to the physical media, you can't make copies on a whim.

It's far more likely for a hard drive containing 10 games to fail than 10 separate discs to wear out. Never in my history of gaming has a disc ever worn out on me. The only time I've had issues with a disc was when I dropped it or tossed it.



#36 threetonesun

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:26

You do know hard drives fail as well right?  What happens if you are really REALLY into gaming and have download 20 (or more) games and your hard drive dies?

 

Statistics are very very unlikely to have all 20 discs be unreadable at the same time unless something wacky happens.

 

I can back up my hard drive, in fact I do. If my hard drive died, I could just play off the backup until I got a new one.

 

That wasn't my point, anyway. You're buying a license to software no matter what format it comes in, discs are no better a backup of that license than digital, especially if every gaming company goes to some online-sign in system or "forced" multiplayer.


It's far more likely for a hard drive containing 10 games to fail than 10 separate discs to wear out. Never in my history of gaming has a disc ever worn out on me. The only time I've had issues with a disc was when I dropped it or tossed it.

 

Again, all you're getting is a license either way. Saying discs are more "reliable" ignores the fact that the media is relatively unimportant.

 

And yes, your discs will die eventually, they don't last forever. Older cart based systems are already starting to suffer from degradation issues, and they were built of tougher stuff than CDs/DVDs.



#37 Jason Stillion

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:47

I can back up my hard drive, in fact I do. If my hard drive died, I could just play off the backup until I got a new one.

 

That wasn't my point, anyway. You're buying a license to software no matter what format it comes in, discs are no better a backup of that license than digital, especially if every gaming company goes to some online-sign in system or "forced" multiplayer.


 

Again, all you're getting is a license either way. Saying discs are more "reliable" ignores the fact that the media is relatively unimportant.

 

And yes, your discs will die eventually, they don't last forever. Older cart based systems are already starting to suffer from degradation issues, and they were built of tougher stuff than CDs/DVDs.

It is relevant if you want to play after those server's are taken offline game play in the future.

Consumer protection laws have not caught up with Digital Content yet. 

 

Also want to mention that I have pressed cd's from 1st gen gaming that still work perfect, and current blu-ray discs have a special 3m coating (that's required for blu-ray standard) that make them more scratch / damage resistance then cd's/dvd's. 

 

There been several MS all digital systems that came out and died / not longer usable, yet physical media is working fine.

 

What's really going on, is Microsoft wanted to try and shift the business model from the existing one and, at this time at least, there was enough push back that they had to scrap that idea. Microsoft may of pulled it off it didn't completely butchered the message / reveal on selling it. 

 

3rd Party's publishers behaviors, EA / Sim City in particular did not help their case either or build confidence of what could be. 



#38 threetonesun

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:00

It is relevant if you want to play after those server's are taken offline game play in the future.

Consumer protection laws have not caught up with Digital Content yet. 

 

Also want to mention that I have pressed cd's from 1st gen gaming that still work perfect, and current blu-ray discs have a special 3m coating (that's required for blu-ray standard) that make them more scratch / damage resistance then cd's/dvd's. 

 

There been several MS all digital systems that came out and died / not longer usable, yet physical media is working fine.

 

What's really going on, is Microsoft wanted to try and shift the business model from the existing one and, at this time at least, there was enough push back that they had to scrap that idea. Microsoft may of pulled it off it didn't completely butchered the message / reveal on selling it. 

 

3rd Party's publishers behaviors, EA / Sim City in particular did not help their case either or build confidence of what could be. 

 

If the servers go offline, you won't be able to play the game no matter what format it's in. If the publisher ties the disc to any online system, you're SOL either way, and that's the trend for every major publisher right now. What good is your Battlefield 3 disc if EA turns the servers private and they all die out?

 

On the other hand, if my hard drive dies, I can redownload the entire game from Steam, or from a backup. If a disc breaks, I'm SOL. There's also the fact that I can have that same game saved to multiple PCs at once, and even multiple operating systems.



#39 dead.cell

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:06

I love the direction we're going with digital purchases, but that's on PC gaming. I don't think consoles are near the point to where I could feel safe in investing my money to a platform that's tied to a console where I will also have to worry about servers going offline down the road.

 

The interviews with Major Nelson where he easily dodges that question just puts me off from wanting to invest in such an idea. If they can't make a serious commitment to me as a consumer, why the hell should I make the commitment to go digital? No thank you!



#40 Cruton_

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:25

Hey Y'all 

 

Newbie to the site so if I cross any etiquette ect please throw it at me so I learn but 1st thing you should understand is that I tend to post from knowledge based conviction. I never look for fights but I research my kb rather than coming at topics from a "fanboy" approach.

 

This subject grabbed my attention baring in mind what was generally perceived to be the biggest E3 so far when it came to consumer impact, ( console) gaming & massive marketing f*ck ups. 1stly I should declare an interest, I'm a Sony guy through and through. Always have been( since I saved up for 18 months and brought a stereo system off of them and was looked after amazingly when it went wrong) & always will be so naturally I lean more towards the PlayStation than the XBox HOWEVER I go out of my way not to be a fan boy and see merits in both platforms.

 

 

But back to the subject at hand  "

All it's going to take is one AAA game to start the movement"

In essence is this wrong, no. Is it at best 5 years away, yes. As the OG poster stated it will only take one publisher who has a blockbuster title to make that step but with the worldwide economy the way it is and the natural aversion to 'overt' risk within the industry I cant see any of the power houses taking the risk anytime soon. With SCE's widely lauded, but IMO more one sided than it's made out to be, support for the "indie games dev's" sector it would appear from the outside that the next/ best chance for a switch to full digital media in the console market would be from their camp. However a AAA title would undoubtedly be a 2nd outing of said title and would end up not being an "indie game" at all as whatever publisher is providing the backing will exert such influence over the titles style, content and DLC package that it will be too far removed from it's original and will either cease to be an indie game with a mass following based on it's merits and therefore wont make a big enough market impact to be a triple A title OR uniformed gamers will see the publisher and rubbish it for that reason alone( both EA & AV are starting to suffer mass consumer backlash over their perceived laziness regarding their catalogue, EA being a long way down the road towards official 'gamer h8').

 

IS THERE A NEW POWER HOUSE WAITING IN THE WINGS?

 

My only answer to this is: PLEASE GOD YES! But for even a high-medium publisher to make that step with the difficulty of getting the amount of credit facility needed I see this as not around the corner.

 

Some Of The Other Responses

 

Game Stop( US) GAME( UK/ EU) Saturn( GER) < Listed those Ive had experience of and understand rather than talking about those in countries I know nothing about)

 

There's an argument about their business models. They moved quicker than the music/ movie retailers so have come out better however it's still a struggle. When GAME nearly went to the wall earlier this year there was a mass outpouring of support from consumer which helped them extend credit facilities & continue as backers could see from consumer led support the business was definitely viable. Many consumers feel a deep affiliation to the store they grew up with( I remember it when it was called Electronic Boutique/ EB as I'm ancient lol)  and didnt want to see it go. Also in the UK there is a long serving untrust in the postal service and it's ability to deliver games on release day -why pay £5.00 for rush delivery when it's still going to get to you one day after it's available in store. However is a long standing affiliation to a particular store a reason for it to survive? Long term I would say no but recent events, certainly in the UK, would suggest yes. When it comes to the "used games take money out of devs/ publishers pockets" statement I will use the same response I've always given: I have brought whole franchises worth of games( brand new) because of one game I bought at a discounted price so it can and does have a positive as well as a negative impact. IMO the used game market is an integral part of the games industry and I'd rather have it in the hands of Game or Game Station( yes I'm aware they are now the same entity) than MS/ AV ect. A physical/ high street retailer will always be more consumer led on price as their staff get the kick back from them taking the p*ss( MW3 price point originally placed at £55 but UK consumers stating they refused to buy a game above the £49.99 mark so greedy publishers couldnt add another £5-£10 off of one game being a case of note). Amazon and the others dont sell to benefit consumers in the slightest, they undercut by maybe a couple pounds or dollars to try and make the sales that's it. I cant remember who said it but there was a response pointing out the difference that PC gamers had regarding Steam ect and they couldnt have been more right. Theres a myriad of retailers who create a vastly different, considerably more consumer focussed market place for PC gaming compared to console gamers. IFFFFFFF the console market could develop this way then yes there would be no need for high street retailers. The importance of them is simple - the feedback they get from customers face to face feeds back into the industry that at the moment cant be trusted - if the only way we could complain about price points / recycling of content was via email then publishers for consoles would have us pay £100 / $140 for a standard game not an upgraded version. ( btw this isnt me being old and not liking the idea of digital only it's a realistic assessment of what would happen to f*ck console gamers if the big boys got their way and cut out a middle man that for once works on the consumers favor rather than the other way round).

 

DIGITAL V PHYSICAL: With BD carrying 55GB of data upwards more and more regularly it simply makes it pointless right now until western ISP's adopt the Asian approach more. I have a 120mbps connection which actually averages out at 134 but I'm in the infinitely small percentage of people in the UK with that kind of speed/ download capability. From the amount of friends I have in the US they seem to be generally way lower and the extent of their fibre network coverage wise which isnt susceptible to storms is way lower as well. Despite my high speed connection I will still get "ramp back" if I download more than 8.4GB in a single day or 65GB per month( something I personally see as idiotic if your going to offer such speeds but that's another topic totally) which means even with Sonys "download as you play" it isn't a viable option and ISP's need to be influenced to relax such constraints ( pre Virgins Nationwide upgrade the old cables could handle up to 305mbps peak with 70% capacity load I havent got the figures for what it is now but it's obvs gonna be considerably higher with that much investment). Yes compression rates have vastly improved over the last 4-5 years however at best your looking at iro 25GB for a content rich title. Furthermore whilst the PS4 will ship with replaceable drives there is no word on whether the XB1 will do likewise and with a suggested 500GB HD at launch is that really enough for a DD only move - personally I think not. Ive around 130 games in my PS3 library & my games purchases have slowed markedly in the last 18 months as I gear up for the next gens.

 

Think thats about all from what I can remeber reading of others posts  - discuss lol

 

Cruton_

 

 

 

 



#41 Jason Stillion

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:31

If the servers go offline, you won't be able to play the game no matter what format it's in. If the publisher ties the disc to any online system, you're SOL either way, and that's the trend for every major publisher right now. What good is your Battlefield 3 disc if EA turns the servers private and they all die out?

 

On the other hand, if my hard drive dies, I can redownload the entire game from Steam, or from a backup. If a disc breaks, I'm SOL. There's also the fact that I can have that same game saved to multiple PCs at once, and even multiple operating systems.

I have a very large pc game collection (dos, win3x, win9x, etc) and now an extensive gog.com game collection.

 

I also have a drive that supports burning to M disc, which which is DVD that could last up to 1000 years (http://www.mdisc.com/what-is-mdisc/). 

(Edit - I don't expect the disc, or a drive that can read it to be around in 1k years, but this type of disc seems it will at least last my lifetime)

 

Pressed discs (not burnable cd-r, dvd+/-R are a different story and do not last as long unless you buy high end, and store correctly) last for a quite some time used / stored normally. 

I have 500-600 games discs (cd, dvd's, blu-ray's, etc) and none of the one's I've tried have failed to read due to age.

 

If we're talking about online only game, that's a different story. I've played Guildwars 1, and Guildwars 2, however I went in knowing some days those server's are going offline.

I make the distinction between online only, and games that offer full offline, offline/online mix. 



#42 threetonesun

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:42

I have a very large pc game collection (dos, win3x, win9x, etc) and now an extensive gog.com game collection.

 

I also have a drive that supports burning to M disc, which which is DVD that could last up to 1000 years (http://www.mdisc.com/what-is-mdisc/). 

(Edit - I don't expect the disc, or a drive that can read it to be around in 1k years, but this type of disc seems it will at least last my lifetime)

 

Pressed discs (not burnable cd-r, dvd+/-R are a different story and do not last as long unless you buy high end, and store correctly) last for a quite some time used / stored normally. 

I have 500-600 games discs (cd, dvd's, blu-ray's, etc) and none of the one's I've tried have failed to read due to age.

 

If we're talking about online only game, that's a different story. I've played Guildwars 1, and Guildwars 2, however I went in knowing some days those server's are going offline.

I make the distinction between online only, and games that offer full offline, offline/online mix. 

 

We're talking about two different things. A console game, on disc, can't be copied or backed up (legally). You're relying on that one physical disc for storage versus digital storage and the possibility of a server somewhere being shut down.

 

As I said though, there are plenty of games today which come on disc, are single player, and still require you to sign into an account which is tied to a server somewhere which could easily be removed.



#43 Yusuf M.

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:04

Again, all you're getting is a license either way. Saying discs are more "reliable" ignores the fact that the media is relatively unimportant.

 

And yes, your discs will die eventually, they don't last forever. Older cart based systems are already starting to suffer from degradation issues, and they were built of tougher stuff than CDs/DVDs.

Then why did you say "Discs wear out"? To me, it seemed like you were implying that hard disks have better reliability than discs. It's not even an issue of reliability but one of convenience. Hard disks have limited space which can be an issue for people with large game collections. It's also inconvenient to have to remove one game in favour of another and wait for a game download to complete. It's easier to just swap discs and not have to wait at all.

 

Also, digital games are tied to your account so you can't resell it or lend it to someone. Sometimes I let my friends borrow my games so they could try it before buying it.

 

If the servers go offline, you won't be able to play the game no matter what format it's in. If the publisher ties the disc to any online system, you're SOL either way, and that's the trend for every major publisher right now. What good is your Battlefield 3 disc if EA turns the servers private and they all die out?

 

On the other hand, if my hard drive dies, I can redownload the entire game from Steam, or from a backup. If a disc breaks, I'm SOL. There's also the fact that I can have that same game saved to multiple PCs at once, and even multiple operating systems.

The same problem affects the digital version of a game. If the servers go down, then you can't play online (or offline, depending on the game).

 

You're comparing apples to oranges. PC gaming requires you to install a game to your hard drive. However, console gaming doesn't. Other factors come into play like the higher likelihood of someone with a computer having a high speed Internet connection. Also, the success of digital distribution platforms as well as competitive pricing (Steam sales, need I say more?) pushed PC to going primarily digital. The same thing hasn't happened with console gaming because each respective company controls pricing. You're not going to see the kinds of sales we've enjoyed on Steam, Origin, Impulse, etc.



#44 threetonesun

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:44

Then why did you say "Discs wear out"? To me, it seemed like you were implying that hard disks have better reliability than discs. It's not even an issue of reliability but one of convenience. Hard disks have limited space which can be an issue for people with large game collections. It's also inconvenient to have to remove one game in favour of another and wait for a game download to complete. It's easier to just swap discs and not have to wait at all.

 

Also, digital games are tied to your account so you can't resell it or lend it to someone. Sometimes I let my friends borrow my games so they could try it before buying it.

 

The same problem affects the digital version of a game. If the servers go down, then you can't play online (or offline, depending on the game).

 

You're comparing apples to oranges. PC gaming requires you to install a game to your hard drive. However, console gaming doesn't. Other factors come into play like the higher likelihood of someone with a computer having a high speed Internet connection. Also, the success of digital distribution platforms as well as competitive pricing (Steam sales, need I say more?) pushed PC to going primarily digital. The same thing hasn't happened with console gaming because each respective company controls pricing. You're not going to see the kinds of sales we've enjoyed on Steam, Origin, Impulse, etc.

 

Again, we're talking about two different things. If you're buying DRM free PC games from gog and copying them to disc, then it's a moot point. If you comparing console games on disc (which can't be copied / stored on a hard drive) to console games delivered digitally (which can be backed up / redownloaded), a hard drive seems like the more reliable option. But again, that's probably a moot point, as either are tied to the longevity of the console, which may or may not be tied to an online service itself.

 

So discs have the advantage of being shared, and the disadvantage of being relatively fragile (they are, look at how many stories there are out there of 360s / PS3s eating up discs). I think in this next generation, discs will lose the hard drive space advantage, as they'll probably require installation.

 

As I said earlier, a lot of games today focus on multiplayer, or have some online component making their long-term viability questionable, not to mention every console maker has made it clear that backwards compatibility is gone. My point is that you're going to be forced into what is essentially a digital download world without any of the conveniences of digital download.



#45 +FiB3R

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 19:12

/snip


Nice first post. Welcome to neowin. (Y)