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#31 Dot Matrix

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:37

"A great base for a great new direction in personal computing", whatever. That's nice in a research lab. What consumer and businesses need is an actually useful operating system here and now. Your constant old/new legacy/future 90s/today rambling is just vague arbitrary judgement calls void of substance and meaning. Throwing away a mature and incomparable ecosystem of consumer and professional applications does not magically create value for anyone. The emergence of new interaction paradigms, simply because they are new, does not obsolete older interactions paradigms that excel at other things (like productivity, precision, comfort, etc). Apple invented the iPhone yet did not try to turn their Macs into large iPhones with keyboards. 

 

Different interaction paradigms for different needs. FYI, command-lines are still around because command-lines are still the best UI for certain tasks. 

 

 

The more I read dotmatrix's posts, the more I think this -> some people liked MS so much and was so desperate for changes to occur, they can't wait to hop onto the W8 bandwagon before even using their head to what's going on. So far the argument of change must occur from the legacy desktop to 'modern' UI is the weakest stance so far.

 

Modern UI isn't "tacked on" to the desktop - the desktop is now an app within the Metro UI. And, yes, changes needed to occur. The old ways of doing things, are being pushed out for new ways. The old, desktop/file/folder based computing is loosing ground to new app based paradigms.We're also moving towards new input methods - touch and motion sensing the biggest two. And what precision are you talking of? The mouse offers no more precision than my finger does. I have a 1680 by 1050 screen, getting a ridiculously small 1x1 strike zone, to precisely hit a specific pixel is damn near impossible - and it only gets worse as screen resolutions get higher, and the pixel density gets deeper. That level of precision isn't needed by people, and those that do need it, use other more specific tools for the task.

You're not going to be having a good day trying to do all of this on the desktop. It was built in a different day for a different age, and it's starting to show. In this day and age, devices are key, not desktop PCs. They are just one device among many, that need to work and play together. This argument isn't void of meaning, just look around you and you'll see it.

 

Also, they haven't thrown away the desktop, like I said it's still there, within the Metro Start Screen. But all those features, you'll start to see deprecated, and transformed into the Metro UI, The Control Panel being the biggest evidence for that. Soon, the desktop will be replaced, and emulated for only the advanced users still wishing to run that one desktop app, while everyone else works, and plays in the Metro environment.




#32 Mugwump00

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:59

When Microsoft can transition their major productivity suite to Modern, so it can be accepted by productivity-users sat at productivity workstations and is no limitation to their productivity, than maybe "arrow-fingers" Dot Matrix's vision might have a justifiable basis in the real world.

 

Me, I like Windows 8.1's desktop improvements, I like using my Surface for Surfing, but we're no-where near replacing what I do on a desktop for a living with an array of Modern apps.  No-where near.



#33 xWhiplash

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:28

Modern UI isn't "tacked on" to the desktop - the desktop is now an app within the Metro UI. And, yes, changes needed to occur. The old ways of doing things, are being pushed out for new ways. The old, desktop/file/folder based computing is loosing ground to new app based paradigms.We're also moving towards new input methods - touch and motion sensing the biggest two. And what precision are you talking of? The mouse offers no more precision than my finger does. I have a 1680 by 1050 screen, getting a ridiculously small 1x1 strike zone, to precisely hit a specific pixel is damn near impossible - and it only gets worse as screen resolutions get higher, and the pixel density gets deeper. That level of precision isn't needed by people, and those that do need it, use other more specific tools for the task.

You're not going to be having a good day trying to do all of this on the desktop. It was built in a different day for a different age, and it's starting to show. In this day and age, devices are key, not desktop PCs. They are just one device among many, that need to work and play together. This argument isn't void of meaning, just look around you and you'll see it.

 

Also, they haven't thrown away the desktop, like I said it's still there, within the Metro Start Screen. But all those features, you'll start to see deprecated, and transformed into the Metro UI, The Control Panel being the biggest evidence for that. Soon, the desktop will be replaced, and emulated for only the advanced users still wishing to run that one desktop app, while everyone else works, and plays in the Metro environment.

 

 

So you are telling me that a mouse has no more precision than your finger?  Really?

 

If the desktop is soooooooo 1990's then explain to me how I can record a several hour video and render it in a reasonable amount of time?  How are these tablets able to store my several hundred GB, to several TBs of Photoshop, Premiere, After Effects, Visual Studio projects and assets?

 

Why do you keep bringing that up?  Who cares if the desktop paradigm is old.  It still works doesn't it?

 

Explain to me what can possibly replace a desktop with a few $300 Graphics cards in SLI.

 

The desktop....IS....NOT....GOING....ANYWHERE.  There is NO DAMN reason to force this damn new interface on desktop users.  MS could have made it completely optional, either an option at install/first start up, registry setting, or GPO.

 

Major businesses will not be upgrading to Windows 8+ unless they make an option to avoid the new interface.  Windows 8 is a horrible OS for content production and professional work.

 

 

 

 And, yes, changes needed to occur. 

 

Why?  Please explain why changes were NEEDED....absolutely NEEDED to occur in the DESKTOP environment?  What was absolutely needed when Windows 7's desktop is perfectly fine?  

 

 

 

Soon, the desktop will be replaced, and emulated for only the advanced users still wishing to run that one desktop app, while everyone else works, and plays in the Metro environment.

 

I doubt we will ever see that happen.  If Windows 7 becomes the next Windows XP which it will, programmers will develop for the highest marketshare.  So the program will have to be a desktop program



#34 Andre S.

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 16:23

Modern UI isn't "tacked on" to the desktop - the desktop is now an app within the Metro UI. And, yes, changes needed to occur. The old ways of doing things, are being pushed out for new ways. The old, desktop/file/folder based computing is loosing ground to new app based paradigms.

What's actually happening is that touch devices are filling a need for mobility, information consumption and casual gaming/productivity that desktops and laptops always sucked at; that Microsoft is late to the party and pouring all their energies into trying to get competitive in that new space.
 
That doesn't mean, as you assume, that desktops and laptops have no place today and can be utterly replaced with other devices. They've simply reached maturity and market saturation as a technology. They're not a growth market anymore, but they're still a huge market, and there's no reason to think they won't remain so. Note that mobile devices will also reach maturity and market saturation soon.
 
That's like saying headphones should replace loudspeakers systems.
 
All these devices (desktops and laptops are also "devices") are best suited for certain uses. A large, physical keyboard is a much faster, versatile and comfortable typing device than a small touchscreen virtual keyboard. Despite what you say, a mouse is a much more precise input device, if only because you can actually see where you're clicking whereas a finger obstructs the view. Traditional desktop paradigms like contextual menus, drop-down menus which you seem to so hate are still some of the most effective ways we have to expose a large number of functions in software. Mobile-oriented software tends to be minimalistic for a reason.
 
By the way, if your theory of touch interaction paradigms taking over everything was true, how come the next-gen consoles still use basically the same controllers the previous generation did? What device would you rather use in a competitive match of Battlefield 4? ;) Or do you think games like that are a dying brand too?


#35 Dot Matrix

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:07

1.) So you are telling me that a mouse has no more precision than your finger?  Really?

    2.) If the desktop is soooooooo 1990's then explain to me how I can record a several hour video and render it in a reasonable amount of time?  How are these tablets able to store my several hundred GB, to several TBs of Photoshop, Premiere, After Effects, Visual Studio projects and assets?

    3.) Why do you keep bringing that up?  Who cares if the desktop paradigm is old.  It still works doesn't it?

    4.) Explain to me what can possibly replace a desktop with a few $300 Graphics cards in SLI.

    5.) The desktop....IS....NOT....GOING....ANYWHERE.  There is NO DAMN reason to force this damn new interface on desktop users.  MS could have made it completely optional, either an option at install/first start up, registry setting, or GPO.

    6.) Major businesses will not be upgrading to Windows 8+ unless they make an option to avoid the new interface.  Windows 8 is a horrible OS for content production and professional work.

    7.) Why?  Please explain why changes were NEEDED....absolutely NEEDED to occur in the DESKTOP environment?  What was absolutely needed when Windows 7's desktop is perfectly fine?  

    8.) I doubt we will ever see that happen.  If Windows 7 becomes the next Windows XP which it will, programmers will develop for the highest marketshare.  So the program will have to be a desktop program


1.) Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Who exactly is aiming for pixel precision with a mouse? Certainly no one. There are other tools for that job. Pixel precision isn't needed in day to day OS operations. That argument is flawed.

2.) Not sure why you need a desktop to do that? I can edit photos on the Photoshop Express app, and on my phone using specialized apps as well. If someone made a Modern app that can edit video, then you would be able to do the same on Metro without any issues. Metro isn't going to slow down your render time. Also, my Surface can connect to my file server, where I store everything of my own, so again, your storage space argument is also flawed. If you have "several hundred GB, to several TBs of Photoshop, Premiere, After Effects, Visual Studio projects and assets", then you too should have a separate file server for those. You're certainly not storing those on a PC either without cluttering it up.

3.) I never said the desktop didn't work, but look at where computing is headed - touch, motion, mobility, and ease of use. When you look at those, the desktop starts falling apart, and becomes quite problematic. x86 requires work to maintain, it takes work to setup, it has holes that need fixed, it's not built for touch, motion or mobility, etc...

4.) What? How is Metro not able to use graphics cards? So it's flat in design, so what? What does that have to do with hardware?

5.) Too bad, but all indications point to its eventual demise, and don't kid yourself. It's not going to be there forever. Getting angry and defensive isn't going to change that. Also, there's no forcing anyone here. You can still install and use x64 apps, but I don't expect that to be the case 10 or so years from now.

6.) Fox News just proved to the world that Metro can be used for business use. So again, your argument is looking to be invalid as time moves on.

7.) See number 3. Again, the future viability of the current file-based desktop paradigm doesn't look good as newer technology comes to the market.

8.) Then where are all the developers for Windows 7? Why are they flocking like crazy to developing for iOS, Android, and Windows Phone apps and not desktop? After all, Windows has more market share then they do *combined*, yet I do not see the same level of development for Windows 7 as I do for iOS, Android, and Windows Phone. And maybe you're forgetting, but Windows 7 powered devices failed badly after the OS was released. Many companies scrambled to create alternative UIs to run on top of it, but that didn't work.
 

By the way, if your theory of touch interaction paradigms taking over everything was true, how come the next-gen consoles still use basically the same controllers the previous generation did? What device would you rather use in a competitive match of Battlefield 4? [ ;)]  Or do you think games like that are a dying brand too?

Why are we talking about consoles? Honestly, for a game of BF4, I'd love to have a gun-like IR controller for my PC.

#36 +LogicalApex

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:21

"A great base for a great new direction in personal computing", whatever. That's nice in a research lab. What consumer and businesses need is an actually useful operating system here and now. Your constant old/new legacy/future 90s/today rambling is just vague arbitrary judgement calls void of substance and meaning. Throwing away a mature and incomparable ecosystem of consumer and professional applications does not magically create value for anyone. The emergence of new interaction paradigms, simply because they are new, does not obsolete older interactions paradigms that excel at other things (like productivity, precision, comfort, etc). Apple invented the iPhone yet did not try to turn their Macs into large iPhones with keyboards. 

 

Different interaction paradigms for different needs. FYI, command-lines are still around because command-lines are still the best UI for certain tasks. 

Very well stated :)

 

In addition, if Microsoft were to seriously consider killing the desktop in any deep and drastic manner they would kill Windows with it. Irrespective of personal feelings on the issue, as Dot Matrix seems to have, the reality is consumers don't prefer Windows in a touch centered world. That may change over time, but that is the present reality. Throwing out the legacy applications that so populate the computing landscape and, of course, the Windows landscape they would be essentially throwing in the towel. They already have a hard enough time convincing new touch focused applications to come to their platform at all...

 

The desktop isn't going anywhere due to the practical reality, as you so well eluded to.



#37 Studio384

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:39

I would love to see the tile grid from Windows Phone show up on Windows, I like that one way better because you can do more with it. Like 2 small tiles left, one normal in the middle and 2 small tiles right. And I would also like to see the tile annimations from Windows Phone come to Windows, in Windows, tiles just move up or down (mostly up), in Windows Phone, they realy flip around, or like the people app does in WP is awesome.



#38 xWhiplash

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:44

1.) Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Who exactly is aiming for pixel precision with a mouse? Certainly no one. There are other tools for that job. Pixel precision isn't needed in day to day OS operations. That argument is flawed.

2.) Not sure why you need a desktop to do that? I can edit photos on the Photoshop Express app, and on my phone using specialized apps as well. If someone made a Modern app that can edit video, then you would be able to do the same on Metro without any issues. Metro isn't going to slow down your render time. Also, my Surface can connect to my file server, where I store everything of my own, so again, your storage space argument is also flawed. If you have "several hundred GB, to several TBs of Photoshop, Premiere, After Effects, Visual Studio projects and assets", then you too should have a separate file server for those. You're certainly not storing those on a PC either without cluttering it up.

3.) I never said the desktop didn't work, but look at where computing is headed - touch, motion, mobility, and ease of use. When you look at those, the desktop starts falling apart, and becomes quite problematic. x86 requires work to maintain, it takes work to setup, it has holes that need fixed, it's not built for touch, motion or mobility, etc...

4.) What? How is Metro not able to use graphics cards? So it's flat in design, so what? What does that have to do with hardware?

5.) Too bad, but all indications point to its eventual demise, and don't kid yourself. It's not going to be there forever. Getting angry and defensive isn't going to change that. Also, there's no forcing anyone here. You can still install and use x64 apps, but I don't expect that to be the case 10 or so years from now.

6.) Fox News just proved to the world that Metro can be used for business use. So again, your argument is looking to be invalid as time moves on.

7.) See number 3. Again, the future viability of the current file-based desktop paradigm doesn't look good as newer technology comes to the market.

8.) Then where are all the developers for Windows 7? Why are they flocking like crazy to developing for iOS, Android, and Windows Phone apps and not desktop? After all, Windows has more market share then they do *combined*, yet I do not see the same level of development for Windows 7 as I do for iOS, Android, and Windows Phone. And maybe you're forgetting, but Windows 7 powered devices failed badly after the OS was released. Many companies scrambled to create alternative UIs to run on top of it, but that didn't work.
 
Why are we talking about consoles? Honestly, for a game of BF4, I'd love to have a gun-like IR controller for my PC.

 

1.  So you would rather have your arms touching your monitor during a full days of work instead of having it resting on the desk using a mouse?!

 

2.  Photoshop Express is the same as Photoshop Extended now?  If you do not need the features in Photoshop Extended, then fine.  However, I use them.  Show me a modern app that has the same features as Photoshop extended.  Photoshop elements is not the same you know?  A modern app is the same as After Effects, Premiere Pro, and Final Cut?  Show me a modern app that does 10% of what these true video editing programs do.  If it works for you, fine.  But I need things like plug in support.  I need things like a very expensive processor and video card when I work on 3D models and special effects.  You are saying a tablet will fit my needs?  A tablet will let me utilize as many CUDA cores I can throw at a problem?

 

3.  These new devices take absolutely NO work to get set up?  They are NEVER problematic?  It requires NO maintenance?  Please.  

 

4.  You said desktops are a thing of the past.  Show me what device can use my SLI GTX 680 setup please.

 

5.  What indications?  Was the desktop demise seen in a prophecy?  So what if tablets are new.  Cars, trucks, SUVs, and so on did not prove the demise for other vehicle types.  How is having tablets in the world proving the desktop's demise?

 

6.  Is there a Metro app that gives me the same functionality as Adobe Suite?  No?  Then I cannot use it for productivity.  I have to use the OMG SO HORRIBLE desktop interface.

 

7.  What?  Why is file based the emphasis here?  How can you possibly work on files with out a file based system?

 

8.  Wow.  You have got to be kidding me.  No desktop programs?  What about Office 2010?  Office 2013?  The adobe suite?  VMWare?  Virtualbox?  Visual Studio?  FL Studio?  Minecraft and hundreds of other PC games?  Yeah there are NOOOOOOO developers out there.



#39 f0rk_b0mb

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:50

1. There should not be duplicate apps! for example: Two IE's, two calculators, two sound recorders, two music players, etc. They should add an "Open on desktop" option, which is essentially a windowed version of the modern application and kill the desktop versions of the apps. I frickin' hate being asked why her is two of everything, explaining it, and getting that blank look of "Which one should I use".

 

2. The control panel should be fully ported over to its modern counterpart without any gimps on functionality and options. The desktop one should cease to exist. 

 

3. Windows 8 apps, Windows RT apps, Windows Phone Apps, and Xbox apps should all be the same thing. They scale up/down depending on what device is being used and sync data in real time.

 

4. More screen colors, textures, and animations.

 

5. New icon set for desktop, fix transparent task bar. Perfect the metro icons: in some apps, they look blurry and unantialiased.

 

6. Lots of other stuff I can't think off right now.

 

 

Jesus Christ, I'm starting to sound like Dot Matrix. :wacko: :)



#40 Andre S.

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 19:56

8.) Then where are all the developers for Windows 7? Why are they flocking like crazy to developing for iOS, Android, and Windows Phone apps and not desktop? 

In the world I live in (and I'm actually a software engineer), most Windows development still happens on the desktop. All video games are still built on the old Win32 and COM-based APIs. All professional applications still are built on and designed for the desktop, and there's no move to bring them to mobile devices, because in general that wouldn't make sense for the users.

 
x86 requires work to maintain, it takes work to setup, it has holes that need fixed, it's not built for touch, motion or mobility, etc...

 

What? x86 is a CPU instruction set. Do you even know what that is?

 

Why are we talking about consoles? Honestly, for a game of BF4, I'd love to have a gun-like IR controller for my PC.

Your theory is that computing is moving entirely to mobile/touch computing, and that traditional user interfaces are going away. Yet, the next-generation consoles designed by Microsoft and Sony are not mobile devices and use the same interaction paradigms as their predecessors. How do you explain that?



#41 Dot Matrix

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:07

1.  So you would rather have your arms touching your monitor during a full days of work instead of having it resting on the desk using a mouse?!
 
2.  Photoshop Express is the same as Photoshop Extended now?  If you do not need the features in Photoshop Extended, then fine.  However, I use them.  Show me a modern app that has the same features as Photoshop extended.  Photoshop elements is not the same you know?  A modern app is the same as After Effects, Premiere Pro, and Final Cut?  Show me a modern app that does 10% of what these true video editing programs do.  If it works for you, fine.  But I need things like plug in support.  I need things like a very expensive processor and video card when I work on 3D models and special effects.  You are saying a tablet will fit my needs?  A tablet will let me utilize as many CUDA cores I can throw at a problem?
 
3.  These new devices take absolutely NO work to get set up?  They are NEVER problematic?  It requires NO maintenance?  Please.  
 
4.  You said desktops are a thing of the past.  Show me what device can use my SLI GTX 680 setup please.
 
5.  What indications?  Was the desktop demise seen in a prophecy?  So what if tablets are new.  Cars, trucks, SUVs, and so on did not prove the demise for other vehicle types.  How is having tablets in the world proving the desktop's demise?
 
6.  Is there a Metro app that gives me the same functionality as Adobe Suite?  No?  Then I cannot use it for productivity.  I have to use the OMG SO HORRIBLE desktop interface.
 
7.  What?  Why is file based the emphasis here?  How can you possibly work on files with out a file based system?
 
8.  Wow.  You have got to be kidding me.  No desktop programs?  What about Office 2010?  Office 2013?  The adobe suite?  VMWare?  Virtualbox?  Visual Studio?  FL Studio?  Minecraft and hundreds of other PC games?  Yeah there are NOOOOOOO developers out there.


1. Huh? Why would people's arms be constantly extended? It doesn't take too much effort to lift an arm for 1-2 seconds to touch or motion for a control. The keyboard has keys that aid in navigation.

2. Again, why does Metro not allow you to use high end hardware? Is there something wrong with your machine?

3. Metro requires less maintenance than x64 does. For example, it has better memory management, and doesn't require user interaction after uninstallation. There's no mess of miscellaneous junk left over that needs to be cleaned up.

4. See number 2.

5. You've mistaken me, when I talk of "desktop", I talk of the desktop UI. That paradigm isn't going to last forever, no matter how hard to try to save it. It'll give way to newer and better things, once Apple and Google settle on a new path. You're going to see a lot of smartphone like features in desktop PC models before long. Voice, touch, and motion controls are slowly, but surely working their way in to newer devices. And for those to work, they'll need a UI that can work with them. The desktop can't do that.

6. Not yet. But who says there can't be one? No one has developed one. Why don't you?

7. Apps have taken over maintaining files. They save, open, edit, relocate, and share them on behalf of the user.

8. And what normal user sets out to use these programs? Aside from Office, the programs you listed are HIGHLY professional specific, and honestly, there is nothing - nothing - preventing these from working their way over to the Metro side. In fact, virtualization might be the only way to run an older desktop program before long - with the desktop and any remaining Win32 bits existing entirely in a virtualized environment, completely isolated from the new Metro environment. Also, games are far from making up a complete app ecosystem. Where are all the social media apps, or Bing apps that can take advantage of localized APIs? There's not even a store for users to go to on Windows 7.

#42 f0rk_b0mb

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:27

1. There should not be duplicate apps! for example: Two IE's, two calculators, two sound recorders, two music players, etc. They should add an "Open on desktop" option, which is essentially a windowed version of the modern application and kill the desktop versions of the apps. I frickin' hate being asked why her is two of everything, explaining it, and getting that blank look of "Which one should I use".

 

2. The control panel should be fully ported over to its modern counterpart without any gimps on functionality and options. The desktop one should cease to exist. 

 

3. Windows 8 apps, Windows RT apps, Windows Phone Apps, and Xbox apps should all be the same thing. They scale up/down depending on what device is being used and sync data in real time.

 

4. More screen colors, textures, and animations.

 

5. New icon set for desktop, fix transparent task bar. Perfect the metro icons: in some apps, they look blurry and unantialiased.

 

6. Lots of other stuff I can't think off right now.

 

 

Jesus Christ, I'm starting to sound like Dot Matrix. :wacko: :)

 

Thought of something:

 

7. No more x86. x64 and x128 only. :)



#43 domboy

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 20:55

Modern UI needs a taskbar. I shouldn't have to swipe to see the time, battery status, network status, etc. If nothing else, make an option to allow the desktop taskbar view-able from a modern app in some way (expect for things that should be full screen, like netflix/videos).

 

Open up the desktop to third-party apps on Windows on ARM. I didn't say Windows RT as such an option might be more appropriate for something like Windows 8 Professional for ARM.

 

And similarly, make the WinRT API be able to target the desktop.

 

Contrary to what some of the above Modern UI fans are saying, having multiple UIs available is not a bad idea, as different input methods have different interaction needs, as well as strengths and weaknesses. Screen sizes as well to some extent. But allowing the apps to run in either UI (desktop or modern) would be a smarter move than forcing one UI at the expense of the other, as Microsoft seems to want to do with Modern UI. The Surface is a perfect example of this as even on Windows RT I spend a lot of time using the desktop UI when I want to do something more than watch Netflix. Those that think the desktop should go away need to seriously rethink their position (note I didn't say anything about the APIs). Just because the tank track was invented didn't mean we threw out using the wheel. 

 

Oh, and the insanely ugly color bar that replaces dialog boxes in modern ui apps needs  to get thrown out... put it back to being a box.



#44 Atomic Wanderer Chicken

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:00

I think Windows RT needs some kind of emulator for X86/64 apps on the desktop. The emulator could step down a program power wise and automatically make it compatible on a arm processor!



#45 Andre S.

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 21:40

3. Metro requires less maintenance than x64 does. For example, it has better memory management, and doesn't require user interaction after uninstallation. There's no mess of miscellaneous junk left over that needs to be cleaned up.

x64 (technically x86-64) is a CPU instruction set, not a Windows API. "Metro" is a design language. I think you meant to compare two different sets of Windows APIs. You should refer to them by their names, i.e. Win32 and WinRT. WinRT runs equally well on any CPU architecture be it x86, x86-64 or ARM. Win32 was also implemented for Itanium at some point.

 

Also, FYI, WinRT is implemented on top of Win32, so it does not replace it: it depends on it.

 

WinRT is not an environment subsystem – it is a library on top of the Win32 environment subsystem. http://blogs.microso...n-windows-8.asp