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#16 illage3

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:50

illage3: well so does the PS4 if it wants the same level of "dynamic worlds" that ex. live on while you're not playing. Some games will have internet requirements, while others will disable certain features when offline(ex. using the latest stored copy of the world when playing offline).

 

I'm not saying that One is better then PS4, I'm just saying that your argument isn't valid. :-)

My Argument is valid, you still need an internet connection to play your games properly.   Shows the Xbox One is not all up to scratch.  Why should certain features (aside from online multiplayer) be disabled if people don't have an internet connection?




#17 JonnyLH

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:51

Nice post, some cool bits in there. A lot of good interviews.


My Argument is valid, you still need an internet connection to play your games properly.   Shows the Xbox One is not all up to scratch.

Not up to scratch because a game with online content needs an internet connection?

 

Go back to 1995. This thread is a good gathering of information, stop causing console wars.



#18 illage3

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:54

Nice post, some cool bits in there. A lot of good interviews.


Not up to scratch because a game with online content needs an internet connection?

 

Go back to 1995. This thread is a good gathering of information, stop causing console wars.

I never specifically said "Online content" my opinion stems from the fact that if you want to experience even single player games, you now need an internet connection which I believe we shouldn't have to have to enjoy dynamic worlds in our games.



#19 +MikeChipshop

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:55

Still hasn't convicned me to get the Xbox One.  Those dynamic worlds etc need AN INTERNET CONNECTION!


Better to strive to push forward than to develop for the lowest common denominator.
My place on the fence is slowly swinging X1 way... slowly but surely.

#20 illage3

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:01

Better to strive to push forward than to develop for the lowest common denominator.
My place on the fence is slowly swinging X1 way... slowly but surely.

Fair enough, my console is going to be a PS4 but I'm open to getting an X1 a few months down the line.  



#21 Quigley Guy

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:03

I see the xbox cloud as progressive enhancement to the game more than a strict online requirement - the game should run fine offline (possibly at a lower resolution / framerate etc) but the experience will be enhanced when it has access to an internet connection.

 

Bigger battles, better draw distance, smarter AI etc.



#22 JonnyLH

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:04

I never specifically said "Online content" my opinion stems from the fact that if you want to experience even single player games, you now need an internet connection which I believe we shouldn't have to have to enjoy dynamic worlds in our games.

Yeah, I totally get that concept. I just feel the world is moving to the situation that the internet is just as important as the electricity providing it. Personally, I haven't played a game offline for years, even single player games.



#23 illage3

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:07

I see the xbox cloud as progressive enhancement to the game more than a strict online requirement - the game should run fine offline (possibly at a lower resolution / framerate etc) but the experience will be enhanced when it has access to an internet connection.

Yeah I see what your talking about and I agree.  Thing is though, we're talking Dynamically changing worlds so things such as enemy positions, mission structure, item locations, day/night cycle won't work without an internet connection.  Obviously this is a requirement if its an MMO like Destiny, but I'm thinking that open world games like MGSV would miss out a ton of content if you don't have an internet connection.   This is where my concerns lie.


Yeah, I totally get that concept. I just feel the world is moving to the situation that the internet is just as important as the electricity providing it. Personally, I haven't played a game offline for years, even single player games.

I always play single player games offline, so no one bothers me while I play them (Skyrim for example), I like having the choice, and I don't want to have most of the game cut off because of the choice I make.

.



#24 Quigley Guy

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:16

Yeah I see what your talking about and I agree.  Thing is though, we're talking Dynamically changing worlds so things such as enemy positions, mission structure, item locations, day/night cycle won't work without an internet connection.  Obviously this is a requirement if its an MMO like Destiny, but I'm thinking that open world games like MGSV would miss out a ton of content if you don't have an internet connection.   This is where my concerns lie.

 

I don't really see what you'll be missing at all. May not look as pretty as the PS4 (assuming that developers tap in to the true power of the hardware - unlikely tho) but will still be the same core experience...



#25 +FiB3R

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:37

 

two people on the family plan can single player portion at the same time, other people can play concurrently

 

This sentence is incomplete/doesn't make sense. Also, (using my gibberish translator :laugh: ) I have yet to see this confirmed.

 

Would be good if true.



#26 vetFourjays

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:48

Good post.
 

Many people dismissing "The Cloud" abilities are going to be really surprised over the next five years as this will evolve over time and many games that are expected to do only 30 frames per second will do 60.  That is one thing that Microsoft has over Sony at the moment.  This is why I believe Halo for Xbox One will be 1080p and 60 frames per second because the processing is offloaded on the server and this allows the game to be run at faster speeds, if Microsoft can get third parties on this, Sony could have a hard time with the same game going 30 frames per second.

I still find these kinds of claims about the cloud usage on the Xbox One extremely dubious. I'm not even sure Microsoft has claimed them directly. Do you have a source with detailed information on just what can be offloaded and how/why it would increase frame rates so much?

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but the reason I find them dubious is because it doesn't make any sense when talking of things like doubling frame rates (it does make sense with dedicated server multiplayer and persistent worlds). Let's say you start offloading all your physics calculations to get more processing for "more frame rates". First you are assuming the user has Internet, but let's say they do (its the most likely scenario). You fire the gun, and the game asks the cloud to calculate the trajectory. It sends the data to the cloud and awaits a response. At a frame rate of 60 fps, the response would need to be returned within 16ms (1 sec / 60 frames) to be returned for the next frame. You could skip a frame, but that'd still need to be back within 32ms. So the first problem is you need very good Internet to get the data back quick enough. In some areas this kind of response time may be possible (to be honest I have no idea). What about those who don't? Or is the game fibre only? Anyway, let's assume the user's Internet is super awesome.

 

Oh no! Your wife/girlfriend/sister/mother/aunt/dog/cat starts watching a YouTube video and it is taking longer for the data to travel. And/or the network is struggling to handle the sudden increase in traffic. So the game, expecting the data back within 16/32ms is instead waiting much longer. Now what does it do? Calculate it itself? Why would the game go to all this effort, sending data across the Internet to get a response that it had the power available to do in a fraction of the time? Or do the graphics/framerate randomly decrease while it does the calculations itself? Or does it just keep on waiting for a response, leaving your bullet in limbo? And what happens if, while waiting for the response, a tank drives in front of your perfectly aligned sniper shot? It would need to ask for the cloud for a new calculation, further increasing the time it needs to wait before it actually knows where the bullet is going. The way I understand it, at the very least you get all the current problems of multiplayer gaming (lag, hit detection, etc) and more (afaik existing multiplayer games do only what's necessary to keep things synced).

 

As I said, I find these kind of claims about the cloud extremely dubious and I haven't seen them substantiated either.

 

The reason Sony are struggling to get 30fps is likely down to software. Microsoft came from a PC world, and their consoles are based on the same age-old DirectX APIs to my knowledge. Likewise, Xbox devs will be fully familiar with it. Meanwhile this is Sony's first foray into an x86 console, and the PS3 was on an entirely different weird and wonderful architecture. The API may have bugs in it, or may simply need to mature. Likewise, the developers are probably ironing out issues from going from PS3 to PS4 in their own software. I'd be surprised if it wasn't fixed by the time it launches. It may very well have been fixed by the time E3 was being shown - I doubt either company brought the most "up-to-date" hardware and software.



#27 BajiRav

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:51

Yeah I see what your talking about and I agree.  Thing is though, we're talking Dynamically changing worlds so things such as enemy positions, mission structure, item locations, day/night cycle won't work without an internet connection.  Obviously this is a requirement if its an MMO like Destiny, but I'm thinking that open world games like MGSV would miss out a ton of content if you don't have an internet connection.   This is where my concerns lie.


I always play single player games offline, so no one bothers me while I play them (Skyrim for example), I like having the choice, and I don't want to have most of the game cut off because of the choice I make.

.

Single player works offline like it does on Xbox 360/PS3/PS4 but if you are online, then things like drivatar in Forza 5 are possible. If you don't have connection, opponents are traditional AI controlled but if you are online then opponents are "drivatars".

Is it clear now?



#28 JonnyLH

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:57

Good post.
 

I still find these kinds of claims about the cloud usage on the Xbox One extremely dubious. I'm not even sure Microsoft has claimed them directly. Do you have a source with detailed information on just what can be offloaded and how/why it would increase frame rates so much?

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but the reason I find them dubious is because it doesn't make any sense when talking of things like doubling frame rates (it does make sense with dedicated server multiplayer and persistent worlds). Let's say you start offloading all your physics calculations to get more processing for "more frame rates". First you are assuming the user has Internet, but let's say they do (its the most likely scenario). You fire the gun, and the game asks the cloud to calculate the trajectory. It sends the data to the cloud and awaits a response. At a frame rate of 60 fps, the response would need to be returned within 16ms (1 sec / 60 frames) to be returned for the next frame. You could skip a frame, but that'd still need to be back within 32ms. So the first problem is you need very good Internet to get the data back quick enough. In some areas this kind of response time may be possible (to be honest I have no idea). What about those who don't? Or is the game fibre only? Anyway, let's assume the user's Internet is super awesome.

 

Oh no! Your wife/girlfriend/sister/mother/aunt/dog/cat starts watching a YouTube video and it is taking longer for the data to travel. And/or the network is struggling to handle the sudden increase in traffic. So the game, expecting the data back within 16/32ms is instead waiting much longer. Now what does it do? Calculate it itself? Why would the game go to all this effort, sending data across the Internet to get a response that it had the power available to do in a fraction of the time? Or do the graphics/framerate randomly decrease while it does the calculations itself? Or does it just keep on waiting for a response, leaving your bullet in limbo? And what happens if, while waiting for the response, a tank drives in front of your perfectly aligned sniper shot? It would need to ask for the cloud for a new calculation, further increasing the time it needs to wait before it actually knows where the bullet is going. The way I understand it, at the very least you get all the current problems of multiplayer gaming (lag, hit detection, etc) and more (afaik existing multiplayer games do only what's necessary to keep things synced).

 

As I said, I find these kind of claims about the cloud extremely dubious and I haven't seen them substantiated either.

 

The reason Sony are struggling to get 30fps is likely down to software. Microsoft came from a PC world, and their consoles are based on the same age-old DirectX APIs to my knowledge. Likewise, Xbox devs will be fully familiar with it. Meanwhile this is Sony's first foray into an x86 console, and the PS3 was on an entirely different weird and wonderful architecture. The API may have bugs in it, or may simply need to mature. Likewise, the developers are probably ironing out issues from going from PS3 to PS4 in their own software. I'd be surprised if it wasn't fixed by the time it launches. It may very well have been fixed by the time E3 was being shown - I doubt either company brought the most "up-to-date" hardware and software.

Right on the money, the way it was described in the OP is quite stupid. 

 

There is quite a lot of elements in games which aren't latency sensitive which could be sent out to the cloud, but its probably not going to give a fps boost like mentioned in OP. I think we're going to see more gameplay elements rather than graphical.



#29 Graimer

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 12:19

delete me. dualpost



#30 xWhiplash

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 12:20

I also fail to see how the cloud is going to make things SOOOOO much better.  For cases like you mentioned, if somebody wants to watch Netflix or YouTube, what happens with the cloud calculations?  How can a single player game be better with internet for use with calculations?  Ever play an MMO or FPS when somebody else on the network is watching a movie from Netflix or YouTube?

 

Also, I do not trust that family sharing feature.  Okay so now what needs to be done to share a 360 game?  Lend them the disc right?  How many people can play your game at once?  One right?  They are really fighting for a feature where not one but TWO people can play at the same time?  I fail to see how game companies will allow this to happen.  Forget the supposed "10 member" limit, just having the ability to have two people playing at the same times does not seem right to me.  I thought there were all of these horrible stories about used game sales, and MS made it EVEN EASIER to do this?  If people do not have to pay to play, they will not.  Even if it is a game I am DYING to play, I would rather split it with a friend and we can both play single player at the same time.  If I did not have that option, yes I would have to spend the full $60.

 

Can anybody explain how game companies would allow this?  I am not a cheapy (I just spend $150 on PSN in the last 3 days), but if I could split the cost with a friend and still have the full single player game available, that is a benefit,  Not to mention you can share it with 9 other people too.  How would this feature be allowed without some restrictions?  If they do not allow this, they would get $120 from us instead of $60.  I do not buy used.

 

Oh you know what will happen then?  No more single player.  Or at least single player with 10% of the usual budget that would only take you 3 hours to beat.  THANKS!  I do not care about multi-player.  I enjoy the single player.  But if sales are divided by 10, you know where the budget will go right?