163 posts in this topic

if market really want to see the Price Drop of the Xbox one, there is a way:
Market need to treat Xbox One like it treat the Surface RT
as Microsoft finally see that xbox one goes the same way as Surface RT, MS will doing price cut, en masse.

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If $100 really mattered,then the WiiU would be $100 cheaper than the PS4,therefore,using some peoples logic here, the WiiU should outsell the PS4,and the PS4 has no chance.... except that's not how it works.

 

Selling a nextgen console is going to be a tough tough sell. You are not going to be able to sell your box just by using better graphics as your selling point. That may have worked from the xbox/ps2 days, when we were transitioning to HDTV,and HD console gaming was going to take advantage of this. But today? How are you going to get the general consumer to drop $400-$500 on a console with "better graphics"? Especially when the last gen stuff can be had for a fraction of the cost,play gaming in HD,and have massive software libraries? Nobody is dropping that kind of money for "better graphics" unless there is more to it.

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lol if you think people don't like better gfx then you are mistaken.

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If $100 really mattered,then the WiiU would be $100 cheaper than the PS4,therefore,using some peoples logic here, the WiiU should outsell the PS4,and the PS4 has no chance.... except that's not how it works.

 

Selling a nextgen console is going to be a tough tough sell. You are not going to be able to sell your box just by using better graphics as your selling point. That may have worked from the xbox/ps2 days, when we were transitioning to HDTV,and HD console gaming was going to take advantage of this. But today? How are you going to get the general consumer to drop $400-$500 on a console with "better graphics"? Especially when the last gen stuff can be had for a fraction of the cost,play gaming in HD,and have massive software libraries? Nobody is dropping that kind of money for "better graphics" unless there is more to it.

 

+1000....

I keep saying it over and over again... once you get to $400+ you better show me more, more, more... The games are a given.... what else can it do once it gets to that price point...

 

I know some are going to say, "Throwing $$$, at something doesn't always work"

And I say, "As long as you got the $$$, you keep throwing until you become a winner"

lol if you think people don't like better gfx then you are mistaken.

 

People do like better graphics. That's true

 

But... this is a BIG BUT....

If the graphics are not that big a difference between the 2 & and the EXPERIENCE is WAY better on the XB1....

 

$500 will no longer matter, and their will be a ton of backlash against the $400 box...

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lol if you think people don't like better gfx then you are mistaken.

 

The average person out there couldn't care less. Go out on the street (or even go to a Game store) and ask people what the visible difference between 60fps and 30fps are. 99% wont be able to tell you.

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The average person out there couldn't care less. Go out on the street (or even go to a Game store) and ask people what the visible difference between 60fps and 30fps are. 99% wont be able to tell you.

 

People who could not care less are not likely to spend 500$ on a video game console.

 

I personally highly doubt Joe Blow will buy a One at full price for the TV things and The Cloud eXperience. I might be wrong though.

 

Most people who will buy a One and/or a PS4 in the first year or two are gamers. And i'm sad to say most of them care about their exclusive games and gfx a lot. People who doesn't care will buy the One or PS4 when they will be reduced in price and when devs will stop supporting the 360 and PS3. And by then the trend will probably be clear and we will already be deep thru the generation.

 

Games, graphics and the price point are important. This is what drive people to buy a console. Now i'm not saying the One wont have good gfx. I'm sure both consoles will have approx the same gfx power. Next generation will likely be a draw like the current one. I just highly doubt the TV things and the cloud will play as big of a role as some people think it will.

 

I could very well be totally wrong but to me it all boils down to the exclusive games and the gfx. Again could be wrong but i don't think devs (EA, Activision, Ubi) will lose too much time supporting the cloud for multiplatform titles unless the One takes a comfortable lead using outstanding exclusive titles and gfx. Microsoft will need to show them the way by making cool things with the cloud and with Kinect and giving people a reason to spend 500$ on the One. I'm sorry but so far we have not really seen this at E3. One lineup was strong but it did not convince me the cloud and kinect did worth 100$. PS4 lineup was good too.

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There's more to a game then just the graphics, and at this point we're not seeing large jumps in graphics like we used to.  I'd take some good gameplay with a specific visual twist than just flat out pretty textures and boring gameplay.   Look at BF4, then look at BF3.  Tell me there's enough of a difference graphically between the two, because I don't see it.   And that's arguably the best looking game so far.

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lol if you think people don't like better gfx then you are mistaken.

 

I never said nobody likes better graphics. What I said was, are people willing to spend $400-$500 just for better graphics?

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I never said nobody likes better graphics. What I said was, are people willing to spend $400-$500 just for better graphics?

 

So taking the cloud stuff away it is all just about graphics?

 

What about enhanced CPU power and RAM?  What about better physics, game mechanics, and more?  It is NOT just about graphics.  What about a game 3 years down the line that you want to play?  It will be a next-gen exclusive probably.  So you will need a new console to play it.

 

I do not care one bit about all of this cloud stuff or Kinect or everything else.  I like the new graphics, new power for other game mechanics as well.  Plus, there will be games I want to play that are PS4/XBox One exclusive.

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So taking the cloud stuff away it is all just about graphics?

 

What about enhanced CPU power and RAM?  What about better physics, game mechanics, and more?  It is NOT just about graphics.  What about a game 3 years down the line that you want to play?  It will be a next-gen exclusive probably.  So you will need a new console to play it.

 

I do not care one bit about all of this cloud stuff or Kinect or everything else.  I like the new graphics, new power for other game mechanics as well.  Plus, there will be games I want to play that are PS4/XBox One exclusive.

 

I think you're actually backing what he's saying.  He said it's not just about better graphics.  Games have to offer more than just better visuals.  You can have a great looking game but if gameplay isn't good, the story is generic, then it's not worth it.   Also, prettier looking games alone are not going to keep the console market going.  As much as some want to deny it, the hardcore gaming market is pretty much what it is, and that isn't all that huge.   After all these years on the market look at how many systems the 3 main players have sold, now compare that to anything else out there that also plays games but at a more casual level, and it's a huge difference.

 

The only way you can grow it and sell more than just ~100million units after 7+ years on the market, is to offer more than just games.  They know that, even the game developers know that which is why you don't see anything close to the level of 3rd party exclusivity we used to get back in the PS2 days.     Gamers will just think about their own thing, they want more of the games they like and care about little else.  But the companies can't keep dropping billions into these devices and only come out selling tens of millions when they have to sell hundreds of millions.   Why else has the 360 and PS3 generation lasted so long compared to what we used to have?  They're going to bleed the hardware they have to the last drop in the hopes of making a good enough profit to keep this going.

 

Everyone wants to target a broader audience now, Nintendo started it with the Wii and grabbing up the casuals to initial success,  MS and even Sony have seen how it helps to do more than just core gaming.  It seems it's only the core gamers that don't see it.

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I think the XBOX ONE is already a hell of a deal at the current price, for what you get. I was expecting them to cost more.

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I think you're actually backing what he's saying.  He said it's not just about better graphics.  Games have to offer more than just better visuals.  You can have a great looking game but if gameplay isn't good, the story is generic, then it's not worth it.   Also, prettier looking games alone are not going to keep the console market going.  As much as some want to deny it, the hardcore gaming market is pretty much what it is, and that isn't all that huge.   After all these years on the market look at how many systems the 3 main players have sold, now compare that to anything else out there that also plays games but at a more casual level, and it's a huge difference.

 

The only way you can grow it and sell more than just ~100million units after 7+ years on the market, is to offer more than just games.  They know that, even the game developers know that which is why you don't see anything close to the level of 3rd party exclusivity we used to get back in the PS2 days.     Gamers will just think about their own thing, they want more of the games they like and care about little else.  But the companies can't keep dropping billions into these devices and only come out selling tens of millions when they have to sell hundreds of millions.   Why else has the 360 and PS3 generation lasted so long compared to what we used to have?  They're going to bleed the hardware they have to the last drop in the hopes of making a good enough profit to keep this going.

 

I think he was trying to say hardware is important but not only for graphics, but for game physics and engine mechanics and that it becomes more important in a few years time when game developers are able to push games further than now.

 

The PS3 generation has lasted 7 years, the PS2 was 6 years and the PS1 was 6 years. One year extra isn't much of a difference. 

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I think he was trying to say hardware is important but not only for graphics, but for game physics and engine mechanics and that it becomes more important in a few years time when game developers are able to push games further than now.

 

The PS3 generation has lasted 7 years, the PS2 was 6 years and the PS1 was 6 years. One year extra isn't much of a difference. 

 

 

Well, not really, going back and looking at it again every playstation has been on the market for 9 years to date, well, the PS3 will be since Sony isn't going to stop making PS3s when they ship PS4s.   Either way, 9-10 years for consoles on the market is now the norm really, and even then look at the sales numbers.   It took the PS1 over 9 years to sell 100million+ units.   It's taken the PS2 that much to sell 150million when it was the monopoly console on the market.    If you had those kind of sales numbers of units in any other of the device markets that also sell games and people play games on, they'd be considered flops.    My point is that they have to make them able to do more than just core gaming so they can expand their markets.  The costs of R&D aren't going down, the costs of gaming, AAA titles, isn't going down either, hell it's been going up. 

 

These guys need to be selling hundreds of millions of units before they're taken off the market,  instead if they just target core gamers then as the numbers show they're fighting over a small market of 100m to maybe 200million worldwide.   Keeping in mind that people buy multiple systems and also that they buy replacements or the newer redesign to replace the old one.   That's honestly not that big of a market for something that's being sold close to 10 years.

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PS4 lineup was good too.

 

I thought the PS4 line up was a joke. Between F2P and third party games, there were only a few exclusives. 

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Well, not really, going back and looking at it again every playstation has been on the market for 9 years to date, well, the PS3 will be since Sony isn't going to stop making PS3s when they ship PS4s.   Either way, 9-10 years for consoles on the market is now the norm really, and even then look at the sales numbers.   It took the PS1 over 9 years to sell 100million+ units.   It's taken the PS2 that much to sell 150million when it was the monopoly console on the market.    If you had those kind of sales numbers of units in any other of the device markets that also sell games and people play games on, they'd be considered flops.    My point is that they have to make them able to do more than just core gaming so they can expand their markets.  The costs of R&D aren't going down, the costs of gaming, AAA titles, isn't going down either, hell it's been going up. 

 

These guys need to be selling hundreds of millions of units before they're taken off the market,  instead if they just target core gamers then as the numbers show they're fighting over a small market of 100m to maybe 200million worldwide.   Keeping in mind that people buy multiple systems and also that they buy replacements or the newer redesign to replace the old one.   That's honestly not that big of a market for something that's being sold close to 10 years.

 

Even shelf life wise as you mentioned the difference is still 1 year.

 

Also you do realize that every PlayStation has sold more copies than any Xbox.

 

1PlayStation 2 (PS2)53.6555.2823.1825.57157.682Nintendo DS (DS)57.1652.0733.0112.43154.673Game Boy (GB)43.1840.0532.472.99118.694PlayStation (PS)38.9436.9119.369.04104.255Wii (Wii)44.7333.2312.739.2899.976Game Boy Advance (GBA)40.3921.3116.962.8581.517PlayStation Portable (PSP)21.3223.4819.7814.7679.348PlayStation 3 (PS3)26.8131.209.3610.7178.089Xbox 360 (X360)44.1624.351.647.6477.7910Nintendo Entertainment System (NES)33.498.3019.350.7761.9111Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES)22.888.1517.170.9049.1012Nintendo 64 (N64)20.116.355.540.9332.9313Nintendo 3DS (3DS)9.788.7411.762.0132.2914Sega Genesis (GEN)16.988.393.580.5929.5415Atari 2600 (2600)23.543.350.000.7527.6416Xbox (XB)15.777.170.531.1824.65

 

Targeting core gamers has worked for Sony, it also does all the media side of things except it doesn't have a TV input so you can watch your tv shows through it. I honestly don't see the point of that feature, my TV has a tuner so I can watch TV on it. My tv also does suggestions, hand gesture controls and voice controls. (All of the new Samsung range do actually)

 

The only upside to the Xbox One I can see is the Kinect features only.

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Even shelf life wise as you mentioned the difference is still 1 year.

 

Also you do realize that every PlayStation has sold more copies than any Xbox.

 

1PlayStation 2 (PS2)53.6555.2823.1825.57157.682Nintendo DS (DS)57.1652.0733.0112.43154.673Game Boy (GB)43.1840.0532.472.99118.694PlayStation (PS)38.9436.9119.369.04104.255Wii (Wii)44.7333.2312.739.2899.976Game Boy Advance (GBA)40.3921.3116.962.8581.517PlayStation Portable (PSP)21.3223.4819.7814.7679.348PlayStation 3 (PS3)26.8131.209.3610.7178.089Xbox 360 (X360)44.1624.351.647.6477.7910Nintendo Entertainment System (NES)33.498.3019.350.7761.9111Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES)22.888.1517.170.9049.1012Nintendo 64 (N64)20.116.355.540.9332.9313Nintendo 3DS (3DS)9.788.7411.762.0132.2914Sega Genesis (GEN)16.988.393.580.5929.5415Atari 2600 (2600)23.543.350.000.7527.6416Xbox (XB)15.777.170.531.1824.65

 

Targeting core gamers has worked for Sony, it also does all the media side of things except it doesn't have a TV input so you can watch your tv shows through it. I honestly don't see the point of that feature, my TV has a tuner so I can watch TV on it. My tv also does suggestions, hand gesture controls and voice controls. (All of the new Samsung range do actually)

 

The only upside to the Xbox One I can see is the Kinect features only.

 

I'm not making this a pissing contest over who sells more than who, I don't care.  You're kinda sidestepping my point.  Look at the numbers you're posting for the different systems, life to date unit sales.   At best we have a bit over 150million, and that was for the PS2 which had the market all to itself after Nintendo dropped the ball and the Xbox came in late and was new.   After all these years on the market and you don't have one system that goes over 200million.  That just proves my point that the "gamer" market is small, it is what it is, 100m to at best 200 million because as I've said people buy multiple systems and or replacements and redesigns at cheaper prices.

 

It's small, if it was any smaller it'd be thought of as niche.  With R&D costs going up, game development costs going up, they need to sell more than 100million after 10 years.   They know this, both Sony and MS.  They're pushing them as all around media hubs now, more and more.   The PS1 doubled as a CD player, the PS2 was a cheap DVD player at the time.  The PS3 was also marketed as the best BD player at the time.    It's not hard to see that they all want to get more people to buy these than have been.  Right now all they're doing is splitting a small market when they would love nothing more than to sell to everyone, not just gamers.

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Even shelf life wise as you mentioned the difference is still 1 year.

 

Also you do realize that every PlayStation has sold more copies than any Xbox.

 

1PlayStation 2 (PS2)53.6555.2823.1825.57157.682Nintendo DS (DS)57.1652.0733.0112.43154.673Game Boy (GB)43.1840.0532.472.99118.694PlayStation (PS)38.9436.9119.369.04104.255Wii (Wii)44.7333.2312.739.2899.976Game Boy Advance (GBA)40.3921.3116.962.8581.517PlayStation Portable (PSP)21.3223.4819.7814.7679.348PlayStation 3 (PS3)26.8131.209.3610.7178.089Xbox 360 (X360)44.1624.351.647.6477.7910Nintendo Entertainment System (NES)33.498.3019.350.7761.9111Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES)22.888.1517.170.9049.1012Nintendo 64 (N64)20.116.355.540.9332.9313Nintendo 3DS (3DS)9.788.7411.762.0132.2914Sega Genesis (GEN)16.988.393.580.5929.5415Atari 2600 (2600)23.543.350.000.7527.6416Xbox (XB)15.777.170.531.1824.65

 

 

right...vgchartz. you know the ones who are always way off,especially with xbox360 numbers,until Microsoft releases official numbers, then vgchartz adjusts them.. every single time. and 0.2% difference doesn't matter as much as xbox360 slaughtering the rest in software and accessories sales.

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right...vgchartz. you know the ones who are always way off,especially with xbox360 numbers,until Microsoft releases official numbers, then vgchartz adjusts them.. every single time. and 0.2% difference doesn't matter as much as xbox360 slaughtering the rest in software and accessories sales.

 

Weekly data may be a calculated guess at VGChartz but anything older that that and the data is directly from the NPD.

 

I'm not making this a ****ing contest over who sells more than who, I don't care.  You're kinda sidestepping my point.  Look at the numbers you're posting for the different systems, life to date unit sales.   At best we have a bit over 150million, and that was for the PS2 which had the market all to itself after Nintendo dropped the ball and the Xbox came in late and was new.   After all these years on the market and you don't have one system that goes over 200million.  That just proves my point that the "gamer" market is small, it is what it is, 100m to at best 200 million because as I've said people buy multiple systems and or replacements and redesigns at cheaper prices.

 

It's small, if it was any smaller it'd be thought of as niche.  With R&D costs going up, game development costs going up, they need to sell more than 100million after 10 years.   They know this, both Sony and MS.  They're pushing them as all around media hubs now, more and more.   The PS1 doubled as a CD player, the PS2 was a cheap DVD player at the time.  The PS3 was also marketed as the best BD player at the time.    It's not hard to see that they all want to get more people to buy these than have been.  Right now all they're doing is splitting a small market when they would love nothing more than to sell to everyone, not just gamers.

 

If the PS2 was released in 2000, Dreamcast in 1999, Xbox in 2001. So because Dreamcast was a flop and Xbox released 1 year later than means the PS2 had no competition?

That would mean the X360 had no competition because the PS3 was released a year later, yet the PS3 still managed to sell more.

 

The Console gamer market bought almost 300 Million consoles this generation, the gamer market isn't getting smaller it was 230 Million the generation before. (Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox and Gamecube).

Its only getting bigger and they don't just make money off the hardware sales anymore.

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Weekly data may be a calculated guess at VGChartz but anything older that that and the data is directly from the NPD.

 

 

If the PS2 was released in 2000, Dreamcast in 1999, Xbox in 2001. So because Dreamcast was a flop and Xbox released 1 year later than means the PS2 had no competition?

That would mean the X360 had no competition because the PS3 was released a year later, yet the PS3 still managed to sell more.

 

The Console gamer market bought almost 300 Million consoles this generation, the gamer market isn't getting smaller it was 230 Million the generation before. (Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox and Gamecube).

Its only getting bigger and they don't just make money off the hardware sales anymore.

 

 

Yes the PS2 had no competition, look at it's library, it had more games than any other system in that generation and had way more 3rd party support and exclusives than at any other time.   Also look at the Xbox, Dreamcast and Gamecube numbers, they pale in comparison to the 150+million the PS2 sold.  That, my friend, is not having any competition.

 

And this generations numbers are boosted by the Wii, most of the Wiis sales were to casuals, it's where it made it's big success, and now why we see the WiiU flopping, because the casuals are fine with the Wii and don't feel the need to upgrade yet again, or anytime soon, to the WiiU just for some better graphics.   Out of the that lots of people also buy the same systems, lots have a PS3 and a 360, or they buy more than one, I know some who have 2 or more 360s or have gotten another PS3 etc.   There's also those who get the new redesigns.   I got the newer 360 S and gave my original 360 to my sister.  So out of the 80million 360s sold to date I count for 2.  Others more and the same works for the PS3.  That all helps to inflate the numbers since it's not a true 1 to 1 sale.

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Even shelf life wise as you mentioned the difference is still 1 year.

 

Also you do realize that every PlayStation has sold more copies than any Xbox.

 

1PlayStation 2 (PS2)53.6555.2823.1825.57157.682Nintendo DS (DS)57.1652.0733.0112.43154.673Game Boy (GB)43.1840.0532.472.99118.694PlayStation (PS)38.9436.9119.369.04104.255Wii (Wii)44.7333.2312.739.2899.976Game Boy Advance (GBA)40.3921.3116.962.8581.517PlayStation Portable (PSP)21.3223.4819.7814.7679.348PlayStation 3 (PS3)26.8131.209.3610.7178.089Xbox 360 (X360)44.1624.351.647.6477.7910Nintendo Entertainment System (NES)33.498.3019.350.7761.9111Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES)22.888.1517.170.9049.1012Nintendo 64 (N64)20.116.355.540.9332.9313Nintendo 3DS (3DS)9.788.7411.762.0132.2914Sega Genesis (GEN)16.988.393.580.5929.5415Atari 2600 (2600)23.543.350.000.7527.6416Xbox (XB)15.777.170.531.1824.65

 

Targeting core gamers has worked for Sony, it also does all the media side of things except it doesn't have a TV input so you can watch your tv shows through it. I honestly don't see the point of that feature, my TV has a tuner so I can watch TV on it. My tv also does suggestions, hand gesture controls and voice controls. (All of the new Samsung range do actually)

 

The only upside to the Xbox One I can see is the Kinect features only.

What are you going on about? Everything I've seen you post has been false.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/05/x360-april-npd

 

I know this is US only, but its been the best selling console there for 28months.

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Yes the PS2 had no competition, look at it's library, it had more games than any other system in that generation and had way more 3rd party support and exclusives than at any other time.   Also look at the Xbox, Dreamcast and Gamecube numbers, they pale in comparison to the 150+million the PS2 sold.  That, my friend, is not having any competition.

 

So the PS2 had no competition cause it was a lot better than the Xbox?

 

What are you going on about? Everything I've seen you post has been false.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/05/x360-april-npd

 

I know this is US only, but its been the best selling console there for 28months.

 

You are clearly deluded then. PS3 has sold more units globally than the X360 have, im not limiting myself to one market (US).. If I was to do that I might as well check which sold better in Ethiopia and than say that console sold more units... it just doesn't work like that.

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You are clearly deluded then. PS3 has sold more units globally than the X360 have, im not limiting myself to one market (US).

Sauce me.

If you link me to the homepage of VGChartz, I think I will actually cry.

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So the PS2 had no competition cause it was a lot better than the Xbox?

 

 

You are clearly deluded then. PS3 has sold more units globally than the X360 have, im not limiting myself to one market (US).

I think you are splitting hairs. He clearly means that PS2 had no meaningful competition. Xbox was as much a competitor as Mac or Linux is to Windows or Windows Phone is to iOS/Android. I still remember walking into gamestop in those days and Xbox+games were limited to an ignored corner in them. The PS2 game library was simply unbeatable compared to Xbox.

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I think you are splitting hairs. He clearly means that PS2 had no meaningful competition. Xbox was as much a competitor as Mac or Linux is to Windows or Windows Phone is to iOS/Android.

 

Define why it wasn't a meaningful competitor to the PS2. Because the comment you quoted was a question and he says the PS2 has no competition cause it had better games, better content and third party support. Doesn't that make the console better?

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Well as someone in the UK and Europe, No I wont be buying. Not at launch price. Im sorry but for the asking price of ?430 I could build a nice wee mini gaming PC. Maybe once ther hardware is sub ?300, i.e nearer ?250-275 and I,ll consider one.

I know most folk are like WTF Pc you going to build for that money. But im thinking some 2nd hand bits and a small form Shuttle barebones system or something.

Mind you for ?430 the power house of a card I could buy for my current PC and still have money left for a leap motion means I,ll probs go that path for now and enjoy games on that.

Maybe once XB1 and PS4 start to see there 2nd gen of software I,ll start to get involved more.

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