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While cloud computation data doesn't have to be updated and synced with every frame of game data, developers are still going to have to manage the timing and flow of this cloud computing to avoid noticeable changes in graphic quality, Booty said. ?Without getting too into the weeds, think about a lighting technique like ambient occlusion that gives you all the cracks and crevices and shadows that happen not just from direct light. There are a number of calculations that have to be done up front, and as the camera moves the effect will change. So when you walk into a room, it might be that for the first second or two the fidelity of the lighting is done by the console, but then, as the cloud catches up with that, the data comes back down to the console and you have incredibly realistic lighting."
 
Does that mean that Xbox One games will feature graphics that suddenly get much more realistic as complex data finally finishes downloading from the cloud? "Game developers have always had to wrestle with levels of detail... managing where and when you show details is part of the art of games," Booty said. "One of the exciting challenges going forward is a whole new set of techniques to manage what is going to be offloaded to the cloud and what?s going to come back.?"
 
How exactly is that a bad thing?  :s

 

 

 

That's not what he said at all. He said it wouldn't work WELL, not that it can't be done. Of course they could figure it out - he even states they use cloud computing already. 

 

However, cloud computing would be more beneficial to AI in Sandboxes - AI that isn't directly visible or at the forefront of the screen, and doesn't need to updated every 60 times a second, but could be updated say ten times a second or even once a second, where the cloud can compute the large open world so the local processors can deal with things such as the graphics, and so on.

 

There is critique of MS' claims, not that the cloud is bad. Again, yet another example of the hyper sensitive pro-Xbox worriers around here. Something cannot be critical without it meaning it's a claim of complete denial.

 

Even the title of this topic says "won't work well", not, "doesn't work at all".

 

You can't even show an inquisitive mind or ask challenging questions towards MS, it's almost like the Gamers Hangout is actually nothing to do with games, but religion.

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Cerny's playing dumb.

 

He refers to cloud computing in the same context as match making

Hi, did you miss all of E3 when microsoft went on about cloud match making or what?

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Hi, did you miss all of E3 when microsoft went on about cloud match making or what?

Server Farming <> Online Services

 

When games use the cloud, the servers are running low level code to create data which can provide graphical output. This is ran in parallel dynamically across servers and can be expanded/shrank depending on resources.

 

Matchmaking is just a online service which sits somewhere chugging along. 

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I'm sure he'd love for everyone to think that...

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Yeah that being whether or not you guys can distinguish the difference. As I've said ANYTHING posted in a critique of MS is immediately biased/slanted/flamebait/trolling or as HawkMan would put it, FUD.

 

No I do not call anything anti MS/Xbox FUD just the stuff that actually is. It jus coincidentally happens for some strange reason that tends to include almost all XBOX topics posted by you and Marty. Probably just coincidence, I'm sure you guys aren't hunting anti MS troll bait topics and post only those.

Anyway. None of his career have anything to do with modern graphics engines (sorry even though they had to handle more of the code back in the day, that has NO relation to modern game engines and specifically their graphics. And absolutely NONE of his career has anything to do with cloud commuting, databases or async computing. Three very large and extensive fields on their own.

On top of that, he's the system architect for PS4 a competing console, that doesn't have cloud computing(yet, or for the next 3 years at least) and he's saying cloud computing doesn't make a difference.... Sure. Credible. Especially with all the other actual current game developers who disagree.

And then there's the actual proof. Cloud computing lets you offload all the same stuff that a real time game needs but real time cut scenes don't. Are you now going to say that Halo 4 (and other games with real time cut scenes) don't have significantly increased graphics in the cut scenes. The cloud will give the same boost to actual game play.

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So.. k guys.. if what the xb1 fans are saying.. It must be doable on the PC.

I get an OK video card, we will go midrange.  Then I will find a game (Lets use Crysis 3) that can do cloud COMPUTING, and then all of a sudden I can run Crysis 3 on Full Ultra Settings, because well, the cloud is doing the graphics for me?

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i sort of agree with them however, this is just the same argument that was made by Xbox when they were trying to justify using it. You cannot use cloud to enhance the graphics of a game because of latency however, you can offload smaller details like foliage and ambient details so that the core system can spend more time rendering more important details in the game. as the ambient content is not latency dependent.

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Heh, Cloud gaming. Because it worked out so great for OnLive.

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never really got how cloud rendering makes gaming "faster" it seems like all it would do is put latency in there... I've heard everything from "its all rendered in the cloud" ala OnLive.... to "parts are rendered and merged at the client" which seems like there'd be a big disconnect in timing there... to "we just offload stuff that needs prerendered"... at this point what's the point?! what am I missing here?

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Yes I agree that it is one of the largest buzz words this generation, but to say it won't work when we all (including Cerny) don't know what Microsoft are doing with it is just silly. 

 

If Microsoft would actually clearly explain how it's gonna work and would show playable demos of how awesome the cloud is maybe people like me would not be skeptical.

 

For now this is just a buzz word. People keep touting about the cloud but we have yet to see a real life demo of its awesomeness. When Microsoft demoed driveatars at E3 to me it looked like a perfectly normal and traditional racing game AI. Nothing special. Titanfall looked like a great multiplayers shooter but nothing not doable on a normal pc using Steam and bunch of good dedicated servers. Gfx of Titanfall were great but I was more impressed by The Division (multiplatform title running on PCs at E3) actually.

 

As a computer engineer i'm curious to know how it's gonna work. How it's gonna help games on a regular basis without the latency interfering with the experience. Cause save for persistent world materials and dedicated servers i don't see how it's gonna help games that much. Now i'll admit i'm not a skilled computer engineer just an average one and i've been working as a web designer for years now so i'm a little bit out of touch with new techs.

 

I'm sure some a crazy guys will find a way to use this to create some crazy gameplay while making an exclusive One game. But will big publishers be able to easily use the cloud to enhance multiplatform titles on a regular basis? Will it be cost effective and worth it? This has yet to be proven, demoed or even explained at all.

 

For now and until Microsoft proves me wrong by demoing it the Cloud is the next Blinx: The Time Sweeper. Remember Blinx? I personally do. Back then i was a mod at Gamespot. In the System Wars forum XBox fans were all talking about this game. How the HD would improve gaming. Revolutionize it. How Blinx would be awesome and not doable without the HD. And the Bethesda guys gave then ammunition by saying Morrowind was not possible without an HD (which was a complete lie). Finally Blinx sucked and the HD did not really make the games better (which was expected).

 

In the end it's all about the games. No matter how awesome the cloud is it's still possible to make great games without it. If the One doesn't have the best games then the PS4 will sell better and devs will just ignore the cloud. It will become a novelty for exclusive titles. The One and PS4 will be released soon. If the Cloud is to play such a big role they'll need to show it soon. They don't have a 1 year headstart like last gen.

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People kill me... Including Cerny...

 

Nobody knows how "Cloud" will truly work from a gaming perspective... NOBODY... Not even Cerny 

 

What I hate is EVERYBODY shooting it down before its even given a chance...

 

Graphics may or may not work... if the graphics boost isn't there, well so what...

 

Cloud Computing offers a ton of other content... In which those things can be added to gaming...  how about an AI server for Elder Scrolls or Mass Effect... That could expand conversations beyond the same 3 or 4 lines NPC's give...

 

Or what if games that are connected are powered by Bing on the back end...

 

OPEN UP PEOPLE..... Gamers are suppose to have open minds... but all we do is shoot things down...

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Nobody knows how "Cloud" will truly work from a gaming perspective... NOBODY... Not even Cerny 

 

Yeah uh, there are plenty of people who know and understand what "cloud" brings to the table. This isn't new or innovative tech we're talking about here, at heart this is the same client-server relationship that's been powering the web for the last two decades. The only new part is scalability - which has no impact on anyone except for Microsoft as the host.

 

Cloud Computing offers a ton of other content... In which those things can be added to gaming...  how about an AI server for Elder Scrolls or Mass Effect... That could expand conversations beyond the same 3 or 4 lines NPC's give...

 

You don't need an "AI Server" for that. Modern games can support thousands of potential dialogue options as is, the limitation comes from needing to pay people for voiceacting and developers to author the gameplay attached to those options.

 

--

 

This "cloud" thing is nothing but pure PR, and it's scary how willing people are not not only lap it up - but to blindly defend it whatever the cost.

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If Microsoft would actually clearly explain how it's gonna work and would show playable demos of how awesome the cloud is maybe people like me would not be skeptical.

 

For now this is just a buzz word. People keep touting about the cloud but we have yet to see a real life demo of its awesomeness. When Microsoft demoed driveatars at E3 to me it looked like a perfectly normal and traditional racing game AI. Nothing special. Titanfall looked like a great multiplayers shooter but nothing not doable on a normal pc using Steam and bunch of good dedicated servers. Gfx of Titanfall were great but I was more impressed by The Division (multiplatform title running on PCs at E3) actually.

 

As a computer engineer i'm curious to know how it's gonna work. How it's gonna help games on a regular basis without the latency interfering with the experience. Cause save for persistent world materials and dedicated servers i don't see how it's gonna help games that much. Now i'll admit i'm not a skilled computer engineer just an average one and i've been working as a web designer for years now so i'm a little bit out of touch with new techs.

 

I'm sure some a crazy guys will find a way to use this to create some crazy gameplay while making an exclusive One game. But will big publishers be able to easily use the cloud to enhance multiplatform titles on a regular basis? Will it be cost effective and worth it? This has yet to be proven, demoed or even explained at all.

 

For now and until Microsoft proves me wrong by demoing it the Cloud is the next Blinx: The Time Sweeper. Remember Blinx? I personally do. Back then i was a mod at Gamespot. In the System Wars forum XBox fans were all talking about this game. How the HD would improve gaming. Revolutionize it. How Blinx would be awesome and not doable without the HD. And the Bethesda guys gave then ammunition by saying Morrowind was not possible without an HD (which was a complete lie). Finally Blinx sucked and the HD did not really make the games better (which was expected).

 

In the end it's all about the games. No matter how awesome the cloud is it's still possible to make great games without it. If the One doesn't have the best games then the PS4 will sell better and devs will just ignore the cloud. It will become a novelty for exclusive titles. The One and PS4 will be released soon. If the Cloud is to play such a big role they'll need to show it soon. They don't have a 1 year headstart like last gen.

 

Thats where you are wrong...They don't have to "Show the cloud soon"... Microsoft designed this for future use that can be used now... Thats why the Forza team took advantage of it being available now...

The cloud was designed for years 5-10 when gamers start getting impatient and crying for something new.

Bandwith the world over should not stay stagnant for the next 5+ years.

Tech changes like the wind and gaming consoles are usually stuck in the time period they were created in... look how quickly iPad's and Galaxy S' are churned out... always improving...

 

Microsoft spotted this a mile away....

 

Consoles can't be churned out on the regular (gaming industry doesn't work this way...fragmentation an all)...

 

So the next logical thing would be the WEB.... 

 

I did a post on NEOWIN stating how the WEB will be the killer feature of the generation of consoles and it will be your ISP holding you back.... Not Microsoft...

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Yeah uh, there are plenty of people who know and understand what "cloud" brings to the table. This isn't new or innovative tech we're talking about here, at heart this is the same client-server relationship that's been powering the web for the last two decades. The only new part is scalability - which has no impact on anyone except for Microsoft as the host.

 

 

You don't need an "AI Server" for that. Modern games can support thousands of potential dialogue options as is, the limitation comes from needing to pay people for voiceacting and developers to author the gameplay attached to those options.

 

 

Nobody has ever tried this from a Gaming Console perspective... not on this scale... Nobody has taken a risk like this on a GAME CONSOLE

Once you have someones voice recorded for whatever you need them for... you don't really need them any longer... you know how they sound, and you can manipulate their voice for expansive content... And a AI server would work wonders into a Game... how those retards in shooter games who keep going to the same spot to be slaughtered... now they will have a Mind not to bunch up in the same spot and get killed....

And when I play Elder Scrolls, I want more than the same canned conversations that i have been seeing for years...  An AI Server would make characters feel more alive and not well BOTS

 

Match Making and Hosting have been around... yes...  But not one game publisher has tried 300k dedicated servers... not one has tried it on this level...  As far as consoles go...

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Reading the comments, here and in other forums... All I have to say is that people are so confused about this aspect, they cannot separate and tell the differences between, Cloud Gaming or Streaming and Cloud Computing...

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This "cloud" thing is nothing but pure PR, and it's scary how willing people are not not only lap it up - but to blindly defend it whatever the cost.

 

Given what I've seen recently from Azure and Windows 8.1 I have to disagree (the teched demos were really interesting). If MS can take the services they currently have and find a way to make similar services for gaming - and i think if anyone could it'll be MS - then that'll make the xbox one pretty awesome.

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Reading the comments, here and in other forums... All I have to say is that people are so confused about this aspect, they cannot separate and tell the differences between, Cloud Gaming or Streaming and Cloud Computing...

What this guy said.

 

People should do research on Azure and server farming before making witty comments.

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Nobody has ever tried this from a Gaming Console perspective... not on this scale... Nobody has taken a risk like this on a GAME CONSOLE

Once you have someones voice recorded for whatever you need them for... you don't really need them any longer... you know how they sound, and you can manipulate their voice for expansive content... And a AI server would work wonders into a Game... how those retards in shooter games who keep going to the same spot to be slaughtered... now they will have a Mind not to bunch up in the same spot and get killed....

And when I play Elder Scrolls, I want more than the same canned conversations that i have been seeing for years...  An AI Server would make characters feel more alive and not well BOTS

 

Match Making and Hosting have been around... yes...  But not one game publisher has tried 300k dedicated servers... not one has tried it on this level...  As far as consoles go...

 

Being a game console doesn't change anything, the tech works exactly the same no matter what device is the client. It's not a risk, it's not new and it's not innovative.

 

You keep using this invented term "AI server", but what you're describing has nothing to do with AI at all. On top of that, voice synthesis even using human samples (E.g. Vocaloid) sounds unnatural, your idea would clash heavily with traditional developer-generated content - and you still havn't solved or even addressed the gameplay issue.

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Being a game console doesn't change anything, the tech works exactly the same no matter what device is the client. It's not a risk, it's not new and it's not innovative.

 

You keep using this invented term "AI server", but what you're describing has nothing to do with AI at all. On top of that, voice synthesis even using human samples (E.g. Vocaloid) sounds unnatural, your idea would clash heavily with traditional developer-generated content - and you still havn't solved or even addressed the gameplay issue.

Does it not? What if I say that console includes hardware which off-loads the data compression from the CPU and there's memory buses to get the responses straight into RAM without hitting code.

 

Do your research.

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Does it not? What if I say that console includes hardware which off-loads the data compression from the CPU and there's memory buses to get the responses straight into RAM without hitting code.

 

Do your research.

 

Considering I've already busted you once for making rubbish claims, whatever you say has little value as far as I'm concerned.

 

Even if what you say is true, it doesn't matter simply because the biggest limitation is the latency between the client and server, which precludes any interaction with realtime rendering. For anything that doesn't fall into that category the extra hardware is no longer relevant, as the data isn't especially time-sensitive.

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Considering I've already busted you once for making rubbish claims, whatever you say has little value as far as I'm concerned.

 

Even if what you say is true, it doesn't matter simply because the biggest limitation is the latency between the client and server, which precludes any interaction with realtime rendering. For anything that doesn't fall into that category the extra hardware is no longer relevant, as the data isn't especially time-sensitive.

You've busted me for bogus claims? I was referring to use-cases and gave a convoluted example. An example which as actually confirmed by the quote Audioboxer posted on the second page. So you get your facts straight. Just for your ease:

 

"One example of that might be lighting,"

Azure has data centers locally, you're looking at averages of 10-60ms on a stable connection. Of course there's the scenario of packet spikes, connection losses but that'll hopefully be handled well on the software side. If you know so much about this to "disprove" me, then I shouldn't be preaching about the architecture of the hardware to support this idea. Not everything is latency sensitive in games. What can be off-loaded, and the benefits from that, we're all waiting to see.

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Nobody has ever tried this from a Gaming Console perspective... not on this scale... Nobody has taken a risk like this on a GAME CONSOLE

Once you have someones voice recorded for whatever you need them for... you don't really need them any longer... you know how they sound, and you can manipulate their voice for expansive content... And a AI server would work wonders into a Game... how those retards in shooter games who keep going to the same spot to be slaughtered... now they will have a Mind not to bunch up in the same spot and get killed....

And when I play Elder Scrolls, I want more than the same canned conversations that i have been seeing for years...  An AI Server would make characters feel more alive and not well BOTS

 

Match Making and Hosting have been around... yes...  But not one game publisher has tried 300k dedicated servers... not one has tried it on this level...  As far as consoles go...

 

What are you on about? This is the exact client-host relationship that was already explained to you. This IS NOT something new nor revolutionary, MS just needs to make sure their servers can handle all the load, which I'm pretty confident their datacenters can do.

 

Also Mark is right, cloud won't magically boost your graphics over the APU graphics limit that it can do.

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never really got how cloud rendering makes gaming "faster" it seems like all it would do is put latency in there... I've heard everything from "its all rendered in the cloud" ala OnLive.... to "parts are rendered and merged at the client" which seems like there'd be a big disconnect in timing there... to "we just offload stuff that needs prerendered"... at this point what's the point?! what am I missing here?

 

 

Heh, Cloud gaming. Because it worked out so great for OnLive.

 

It's cloud computing, NOT cloud rendering.

 

Anyway cloud rendering can work as well. but for different purposes. remember those grand backdrops in games like Halo and such. or the huge vistas with birds flying and animals moving in the background on the Avatar movie ? Now that whole background Vista could be cloud rendered while all the nearby environment you interact with is rendered locally AND it can be done without the background movement lagging behind due to latency, even at high speed. You simply render the background slightly larger than the screen. and the xbox can then pan the background around so so it's where it's supposed to be. That will allow for awesome lively backgrounds with great depth while releasing lots of resources on the xbox to the graphics around you. This isn't what the cloud computing on the Xbox One is intended for though and probably not something you'll see right away, but it's one possibility. 

Also Mark is right, cloud won't magically boost your graphics over the APU graphics limit that it can do.

 

But it can free up resources on the APU so the console can make better graphics, in the same way that real time cut scenes are rendered at a higher quality than real time game graphics. since cut scenes don't do physics and AI. 

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I doubt its going to make anything graphic wise THAT much better but they have said they plan on using the cloud for a number of things especially  for Online Multiplayer and creating persistent worlds and no wait matchmaking. We will see in november.  

 

p.s. This is a site that obviously leans to anything Microsoft and if you cant tell that just by the name and/or you have a problem with that and feel the need to complain about it than gtfo and go to a more pro Sony site to post your Sony things otherwise your an idiot if you dont EXPECT to see this kind of response so don't complain.  Posting anything on this site that is pro anything that competes against MS is just asking for it lol.  Every news site out there is bias to some capacity so get over it.

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You've busted me for bogus claims? I was referring to use-cases and gave a convoluted example. An example which as actually confirmed by the quote Audioboxer posted on the second page. So you get your facts straight. Just for your ease:

 

Azure has data centers locally, you're looking at averages of 10-60ms on a stable connection. Of course there's the scenario of packet spikes, connection losses but that'll hopefully be handled well on the software side. If you know so much about this to "disprove" me, then I shouldn't be preaching about the architecture of the hardware to support this idea. Not everything is latency sensitive in games. What can be off-loaded, and the benefits from that, we're all waiting to see.

 

You gave a flat out wrong example while having the gall to claim I was misinformed.

 

Best case scenario between a geographically close (same city) client and server you can get a ping response as low as 15ms. You haven't done any work on the remote server and you're already left with no more than 1ms until the current frame that is being rendered goes live. So poof goes the dreams of any realtime workload.

 

So all you're left with now is the latency insensitive workloads, and out of those you can discard anything which is static/pre-computable. At this point you've got AI offloading or behavioural analysis based AI such as was demoed at E3, maybe certain implementations of physics (cinematic).

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