PS4 Architect Mark Cerny: Cloud won't work well to boost graphics

[Rodrigo]

Name it then. Microsoft has already invested the R&D in creating their Azure platform, and the Internet already exists. So what's different?

 

At the end of the day, fundamentally cloud computing is the same whatever the context. You have a workload, you send or allocated the workload, Azure processes it and you get a result/service back.

 

You are missing waaaay too much the point. Microsoft already did research and it has been implemented (see Azure). HOWEVER, they have not implemented it in gaming, as they are going to do it (hence, the research, and we definitely not know how they are going to use the cloud entirely). They have to code SOMETHING that SUPPORTS these technologies (implementation into compatible hardware), and make the technology around it (the Xbox One).

 

Again, by your logic, I should be able to add the same Xbox One's cloud capabilities to a Nintendo 64 (since you are definitely ignoring the fact that it requires something special, like hardware or software).

[Ambroos]

There is nothing stopping PS4 devs from renting a bunch of Amazon EC2 servers and using them for the exact same purpose as Microsoft's Azure services. And I think chances are Sony will have dedicated game servers too.

 

I honestly don't think this whole cloud computing will have much effect on the graphics in either speed or quality. It might help with everything else (AI, leaderboards, social aspects, personalization), but those are things that have little benefit and are already happening in games right now.

 

I think Microsoft is making a big deal out of not much.

 

And I can't imagine it being profitable for them either. Doing heavy computations all the time while people are gaming is going to cost them a lot of money.

[Rodrigo]

There is nothing stopping PS4 devs from renting a bunch of Amazon EC2 servers and using them for the exact same purpose as Microsoft's Azure services. And I think chances are Sony will have dedicated game servers too.

 

I honestly don't think this whole cloud computing will have much effect on the graphics in either speed or quality. It might help with everything else (AI, leaderboards, social aspects, personalization), but those are things that have little benefit and are already happening in games right now.

 

I think Microsoft is making a big deal out of not much.

 

And I can't imagine it being profitable for them either. Doing heavy computations all the time while people are gaming is going to cost them a lot of money.

 

See, you already commented the same stuff in another topic. Exact same stuff.

 

Yes, we get it. ANYONE can rent/buy/whatever cloud servers, but it doesn't mean it instantly creates the technology into the games, the workframe or whatever Microsoft created to use it, including the whole console around it.

 

Why wouldn't it be profitable? They are creating part of the experience around this concept!

[Athernar]

I'm not a dev so I can't give you specifics but using any inkling of ****ing logic SHOULD tell you that you have to come up with SOMETHING to go from point A (xboxone) to point B (Azure cloud) and back.  Hence, RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT.

Good god, man.

 

You're not a dev, but yet you somehow magically know there must be "something" to go between? Riiight.

 

Here's the thing, there isn't. You can talk about all sorts of various scenarios and potential workloads that can be offloaded but ultimately you're still doing the same thing.

 

Capturing state, sending state, processing, response.

 

You are missing waaaay too much the point. Microsoft already did research and it has been implemented (see Azure). HOWEVER, they have not implemented it in gaming, as they are going to do it (hence, the research, and we definitely not know how they are going to use the cloud entirely). They have to code SOMETHING that SUPPORTS these technologies (implementation into compatible hardware), and make the technology around it (the Xbox One).

 

Again, by your logic, I should be able to add the same Xbox One's cloud capabilities to a Nintendo 64 (since you are definitely ignoring the fact that it requires something special, like hardware or software).

 

Your comparison to the Nintendo 64 as a console without internet connectivity is utterly asinine.

 

What is more asinine is how you rant and rave so fervently about my statements, when your very best reasoning so far is  "THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING!!!111".

 

Have you ever posted to a forum hosted on Amazon or Azure? You're doing cloud computing. It's really that simple, honest. You take a dataset, you send it to be processed by the remote server hosting the software, you wait and then you get a response with your completed data.

[Rodrigo]

You're not a dev, but yet you somehow magically know there must be "something" to go between? Riiight.

 

Here's the thing, there isn't. You can talk about all sorts of various scenarios and potential workloads that can be offloaded but ultimately you're still doing the same thing.

 

Capturing state, sending state, processing, response.

 

 

Your comparison to the Nintendo 64 as a console without internet connectivity is utterly asinine.

 

What is more asinine is how you rant and rave so fervently about my statements, when your very best reasoning so far is  "THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING!!!111".

 

Have you ever posted to a forum hosted on Amazon or Azure? You're doing cloud computing. It's really that simple, honest. You take a dataset, you send it to be processed by the remote server hosting the software, you wait and then you get a response with your completed data.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Yes, because we will be posting in a forum while playing Xbox One. I can go on forever here, but the point is, you are simplyfing this Xbox Cloud thing too much and it's getting boring. First, let me give you a little more insight into your simplification... behind those forums hosted on Amazon or Azure? Yeah, there is technology to use the cloud. THERE IS A TECHNOLOGY, it's not magic and rainbows or something that comes out because there exists Internet and Azure (which also means Azure is something developed by Microsoft and not a simple cloud farm). All your points revolve around this dumb simplification of the whole cloud technology that the Xbox One is going to use.

 

What I find utterly asinine is your comparison between the technology used to post on a forum and a gaming console.

[vcfan]

You do understand there is more to a engine than rendering and physics right? If you can talk specifics, then let's talk specifics. Let's not beat around the bush with vague statements, buzzwords and PR speak. Unless of course you're being intentionally vague so you can weasel your way out of compromising statements.

 

It's also worth pointing out your arguments support the earlier notion of using such offloading with the 360, which you called a "waste of resources". When arguably, the 360 needs it far more than the One does.

 

So which is it? Is it a waste of resources or is it a viable approach? It can't be both.

 

 

They do still have to be executed on the CPU yes, but at the same time the CPU will not always be at 100% utilisation. Physics on a object basis aren't expensive either, especially so if we stick to the "ball falling to the floor" narrative.

oh dear. so now that you were proven completely wrong,and you know you are, you are going to try to weasel your way at dismissing physics, i know what you are doing.

 

and the statement about the 360 and cloud, what im saying is, why spend 10x more on the infrastructure, when you can sell a new console,make a profit,and spend less on the cloud stuff than if going with the 360. as you know,i never said the cloud will make your gpu magically better,and i never said the cloud will render graphics either. yes you will free resources of the gpu,but it wont render more than what its physical transistors will do. if you are comparing 2 comparable systems,and one uses the cloud, then you could say the one using the cloud can give you better graphics,as its gpu has more free time and can handle a bigger load. got it?

 

and lol @ going and doing research,then coming back to comment.

[Andre S. Veteran]

 

Here's what I'll say...

 

• Cloud resources are highly unlikely to be useful for offloading any existing graphics work from the console.

  HOWEVER...

• Offloading things like multiplayer game servers to the cloud frees up resources for graphics and other local tasks. This is the most direct way in which cloud services are likely to improve the graphical experience of the console.
• Cloud services can enrich games in other ways, such as:
  • Leaderboards / stats
  • Persistent worlds
  • Content that evolves and is expanded over time by the developer
• Clever developers will find cool new ways to make use of it. I wouldn't rule out someone coming up with a way to enrich the graphical experience using cloud resources...

 

Games have already been doing the things you mention for many years, except they were using their own servers rather than Microsoft's (in general). So this is likely to only benefit smaller game developers/publishers who would otherwise not have access to a large server farm. This is cool, mind you, but not as revolutionary as E3 marketing had put it.

[Athernar]

:rolleyes:

 

Yes, because we will be posting in a forum while playing Xbox One. I can go on forever here, but the point is, you are simplyfing this Xbox Cloud thing too much and it's getting boring. First, let me give you a little more insight into your simplification... behind those forums hosted on Amazon or Azure? Yeah, there is technology to use the cloud. THERE IS A TECHNOLOGY, it's not magic and rainbows or something that comes out because there exists Internet and Azure (which also means Azure is something developed by Microsoft and not a simple cloud farm). All your points revolve around this dumb simplification of the whole cloud technology that the Xbox One is going to use.

 

What I find utterly asinine is your comparison between the technology used to post on a forum and a gaming console.

 

Yes, there is a technology to use the cloud, it's called the internet.

 

Am I simplifying the matter? Certainly, but not in any way that alters my point. You have a remote client running a game which sends a dataset (analogus to a forum post), then you have Azure running the game developers software created as part of the game development cycle (analogus to the forum software), the software processes the dataset on Azure and sends back a response, your browser takes the HTML markup and displays the result. Blam.

 

It's not sorcery we're dealing with here.

 

oh dear. so now that you were proven completely wrong,and you know you are, you are going to try to weasel your way at dismissing physics, i know what you are doing.

 

and the statement about the 360 and cloud, what im saying is, why spend 10x more on the infrastructure, when you can sell a new console,make a profit,and spend less on the cloud stuff than if going with the 360. as you know,i never said the cloud will make your gpu magically better,and i never said the cloud will render graphics either. yes you will free resources of the gpu,but it wont render more than what its physical transistors will do. if you are comparing 2 comparable systems,and one uses the cloud, then you could say the one using the cloud can give you better graphics,as its gpu has more free time and can handle a bigger load. got it?

 

You were the one that was proven wrong. NinjaZidane corrected your physics theorycraft and you went along for the ride due to the vague wording you employed. I know what you are doing.

 

As for the other part of your post, I'm not sure what you mean by or where you got the figure for "10x more" on infrastructure. Microsoft already has Azure. Another flaw is in regards to the hardware side, consoles aren't sold at a profit, especially not new ones, often they're sold at a loss or at cost.

 

Both Microsoft and Sony will sell their consoles as loss leaders and recoup the costs through licensing and Live/PSN+ fees, as have previous generations. If the cloud was as capable as claimed, you could free up some perf budget and crank out a couple more years ($$$) out of the machine.

[vcfan]

Yes, there is a technology to use the cloud, it's called the internet.

 

Am I simplifying the matter? Certainly, but not in any way that alters my point. You have a remote client running a game which sends a dataset (analogus to a forum post), then you have Azure running the game developers software created as part of the game development cycle (analogus to the forum software), the software processes the dataset on Azure and sends back a response, your browser takes the HTML markup and displays the result. Blam.

 

It's not sorcery we're dealing with here.

 

 

You were the one that was proven wrong. NinjaZidane corrected your physics theorycraft and you went along for the ride due to the vague wording you employed. I know what you are doing.

 

As for the other part of your post, I'm not sure what you mean by or where you got the figure for "10x more" on infrastructure. Microsoft already has Azure. Another flaw is in regards to the hardware side, consoles aren't sold at a profit, especially not new ones, often they're sold at a loss or at cost.

 

Both Microsoft and Sony will sell their consoles as loss leaders and recoup the costs through licensing and Live/PSN+ fees, as have previous generations. If the cloud was as capable as claimed, you could free up some perf budget and crank out a couple more years ($$$) out of the machine.

 

read again. he was not correcting me. the first part of his first post was talking about rendering graphics,then at the bottom he agreed with the physics theory. its obvious you dont know how to read and dont even know what we're talking about. youve shown repeatedly you dont understand the concept. please go do your research before commenting further.

[Athernar]

read again. he was not correcting me. the first part of his first post was talking about rendering graphics,then at the bottom he agreed with the physics theory. its obvious you dont know how to read and dont even know what we're talking about. youve shown repeatedly you dont understand the concept. please go do your research before commenting further.

 

You should re-read the post:

 

EDIT

 

As for offloading physics calculations to the cloud, you can only reliably do it for predetermined dynamics (precaching, like I mentioned in a prior post). Offloading physics calculations and awaiting responses in real time is impossible if you expect to get a real time response.

 

With the example you gave, your post falls squarely into the bolded category. To my best understanding the other side of what NinjaZidane is describing is world/physics simulation in a zone beyond the player's influence where calculations can be determinate. (not invalidated by unexpected events)

 

This is pretty much as discussed in the ars link provided by Riggs5177 on page 4, which as you like to say - was convieniently ignored.

[Salutary7]

The best applications of "cloud computing" in games are tasks that are allowed a large amount of latency and only transfer relatively small amounts of data.

 

A.I. opponents are a proven example of this, as well as data concerning other players of the game (statistical or otherwise). However, I can't think of much else that qualifies... Cerny is at least correct to say that graphics won't be helped.

[rfirth]

It can be used for lighting/shadows for static items, like the environment (assuming dynamic lighting that changes slowly). This means your console only needs to compute shadows for dynamic objects. It can be used for lots of things. And anything you use it for conserves computational power so that it can be used for something else. Offloading the calculation of shadows due to light filtering through trees in a forest, meaning you only have to calculate the shadows for a few actors.

 

I'm a developer (OpenGL experience), and I can think of several cool tricks I'd like to implement and try to offload calculations to the cloud. No doubt Microsoft will provide powerful built-in APIs to take advantage of this and that big developers will be able to do amazing things, especially since they don't have to pay for the servers.

Come on, let's be a bit more imaginative before dismissing this. Graphics can absolutely be helped, just not always directly.

[vcfan]

You should re-read the post:

 

 

With the example you gave, your post falls squarely into the bolded category. To my best understanding the other side of what NinjaZidane is describing is world/physics simulation in a zone beyond the player's influence where calculations can be determinate. (not invalidated by unexpected events)

 

This is pretty much as discussed in the ars link provided by Riggs5177 on page 4, which as you like to say - was convieniently ignored.

i never needed this information in real time therefore it works. thats what the example was about. if i threw the ball, turned around,then turned back around as fast as i could,of course it doesnt work,but then this becomes real time. it depends on what you wanted to do,but the whole point was to show you how non essential information can be offloaded,it wasnt meant to show off a potential game i am building. i think youre having a hard time understanding these concepts,but i believe i explained them clear enough.

[Athernar]

i never needed this information in real time therefore it works. thats what the example was about. if i threw the ball, turned around,then turned back around as fast as i could,of course it doesnt work,but then this becomes real time. it depends on what you wanted to do,but the whole point was to show you how non essential information can be offloaded,it wasnt meant to show off a potential game i am building. i think youre having a hard time understanding these concepts,but i believe i explained them clear enough.

 

If you threw the ball, then the simulation is not deterministic as at any point you could throw another object that may collide and alter the original's trajectory.

[Skin]

But that is how you have decided to post this piece. As flamebait.

You could have chosen a different topic title about the the whole interview, instead you took one single line from it and turned it into this.

 

These 'console wars' are ridiculous. We are all gamers and there will be great games on both consoles and true gamers should rejoice from whichever side of the fence they're on.

 

A promoted fight draws crowds. Whether on the school yard, arena, or on an internet site trying to gather traffic.

[vcfan]

If you threw the ball, then the simulation is not deterministic as at any point you could throw another object that may collide and alter the original's trajectory.

this is too funny. this will be the last time i explain this. the whole point of the example was to show you stuff can happen outside of what you're doing,and this stuff can be offloaded. in the ball example, its flying through the air and boucing around behind you, but theres stuff happening in front and you are not concerned with the ball behind you and are not seeing it doing these things,but these things are happening. again,this is for explanation purposes only,why wont you get it? im not saying this particular example with the ball will happen in a game,just that stuff that needs calculations and isnt essential to what youre currently doing will free up resources when offloaded. i feel like im beating a dead horse.

[Athernar]

this is too funny. this will be the last time i explain this. the whole point of the example was to show you stuff can happen outside of what you're doing,and this stuff can be offloaded. in the ball example, its flying through the air and boucing around behind you, but theres stuff happening in front and you are not concerned with the ball behind you and are not seeing it doing these things,but these things are happening. again,this is for explanation purposes only,why wont you get it? im not saying this particular example with the ball will happen in a game,just that stuff that needs calculations and isnt essential to what youre currently doing will free up resources when offloaded. i feel like im beating a dead horse.

 

Your "example" is flawed as you keep setting up a situation that is not deterministic. What do you not understand about this point?

 

Maybe, if you do infact have a valid point, you should come up with an example that is actually valid?

[blerk]

Agreed. If it can improve real-time local rendering, it would/will be ported to the PC/Workstations, and probably for a subscription fee.

I'm not sure anyone is saying that. It can do some things, and if you're talking on-line worlds, it can probably do even more. You have to be very specific about what you're talking about before you can say it can or cannot do it well, or at all.

 

Already available for PC/Workstations. See greenbutton for an example. 

[HawkMan]

There is nothing stopping PS4 devs from renting a bunch of Amazon EC2 servers and using them for the exact same purpose as Microsoft's Azure services. And I think chances are Sony will have dedicated game servers too.

 .

No, and eventually they will have to. At the moment however there is one thing stopping them. About 3 years worth of research and development of a fast and stable API for their toolkit so they developers can make use of it, a working system around delegating resources from hundreds if ot thousands of games on the servers the have rented without running out of resources.

It's not just rent a bunch of coud servers and say here, have a go.

[JonnyLH]

Yes, there is a technology to use the cloud, it's called the internet.

 

Am I simplifying the matter? Certainly, but not in any way that alters my point. You have a remote client running a game which sends a dataset (analogus to a forum post), then you have Azure running the game developers software created as part of the game development cycle (analogus to the forum software), the software processes the dataset on Azure and sends back a response, your browser takes the HTML markup and displays the result. Blam.

 

It's not sorcery we're dealing with here.

Go home Athernar you're drunk.

 

Azure uses a mark-up language as a wrapper for graphical data sets now does it? And how much do you know? Seriously, I nearly just chocked on my glass of OJ.

 

Also, to everyone saying Sony can rent a bunch of EC2 servers and you get the same platform. What are you going on about? Amazon EC2 is primarily a platform for the dynamic deployment of large scalling web applications. Totally different kettle of fish. Sony would need money and resources they don't have, simple enough. People underestimate how tight they are with finances right now.

 

Cloud is the most general term in IT, not everything in the cloud is the same. It could range from an Apache server on someones home machine, to encryption ran parallel across 10 servers. So don't compare a web application to Azure.

[Yogurtmaster]

^{Frankly I could care less about what Cerny says....  Not too concerned with his marketing.  I mean do you expect him to cheer for the competition guys, come on.}

^{Of course he is going to down play it, why wouldn't he?}

 

^{That is a feature they are not going to have.  Sure they will send you a movie of game play and have you play that, but that is different than what Microsoft is doing.}

 

^{Now of course Cerny is such a genius because he built the PS4 and because he is a programmer that programmed many, many, many games back to the Atari days, so he must know everything.}

 

^{Anyway, I am excited to see what Microsoft has over the next 10 years for us with cloud processing and I am excited to learn more about Azure's burst mode and see how servers can work together to solve problems.}

[GotBored]

Also, to everyone saying Sony can rent a bunch of EC2 servers and you get the same platform. What are you going on about? Amazon EC2 is primarily a platform for the dynamic deployment of large scalling web applications. Totally different kettle of fish. Sony would need money and resources they don't have, simple enough. People underestimate how tight they are with finances right now.

 

Amazons Web Services servers are direct competition to Microsoft's Azure servers, they do the same thing.

 

It also has various other competitors who also do the same thing and I always see a guy posting that the Azure servers do 'server farming?' that's not a thing, I think you mean load balancing which all of them do that. (Not Burst Mode either)

[JonnyLH]

 

 

Amazons Web Services servers are direct competition to Microsoft's Azure servers, they do the same thing.

 

It also has various other competitors who also do the same thing and I always see a guy posting that the Azure servers do 'server farming?' that's not a thing, I think you mean load balancing which all of them do that.

 

Apologies partly the way I worded the sentence.

 

Azure and EC2 are very similar in the marketplace regarding their offering and supporting web applications. The way Azure is being used to compliment the Xbox platform is a completely different implementation and was designed specifically for the X1. MS aren't taking an off the shelf product and using it on the X1, they've took an in-house solution and modified it for a specific use case. Very different.

 

To the quote in bold: Shows you have no technical knowledge on the subject. This is a lot more complicated than a couple of servers behind a load balancer. I love that people think Azure is just some servers sat listening to requests behind a load balancer, its cute. Azure servers can build themselves instantly, they can spread applications across servers which get computed in parallel. Its a very, very techy thing to be talking about hence why there's such a confusion regarding "cloud".

 

Also server farming is a thing, and has been for a very long time. Google it....

[srbeen]

Because it's the cheap easy way of doing it. Putting out a new console is expensive, disruptive and often has to be sold at a loss initially.

 

The only reason to put out a "new" console is when the current one is too slow. If you can mitigate the slowness, then you extend the lifespan and save money. The only reason why this hasn't happened is because that "reality" doesn't exist and is technically impossible.

 

The other reason of course being they are no longer secure, and people can easily play games for free. This is kinda why Sony used Geohot as an excuse to please IBM and pull OtherOS off the PS3, so IBM cell servers would be rented instead of Sony taking a POS loss when people built their own by installing OtherOS, never buying a controller, PSN subscription, or good-kickback licensing on a game. This heavily backfired when a huge effort to downgrade was successful and OtherOS could be reinstated.

[MorganX]

Already available for PC/Workstations. See greenbutton for an example.

That's actually rendering in the remote render farm. It's not assisting realtime, game time, local rendering. But it is neat.

When you tell me the cloud can help my local execution of Skyrim or Bioshock get more FPS from a cloud connection, then we're talking improving local real time rendering and fill rate. But no one, not even Microsoft has alluded to that. People are just reading that into it. It can however, pre-render such a huge world maybe, and download as much of that in the background as possible, allowing richer worlds while allowing the CPU/GPU to focus on real time local events.

Also, there's an indie Win 8 game, Zombie HQ that has events occurring when you're not playing that affect the game (in a real minor way, with a modern ui notification). I thought while implemented in a rudimentary fashion, this is very exciting. If a local game occurs in a world in which the cloud evolves, these events can make the world much more realistic as those evolutions are downloaded and effect your world every time you play. Perhaps your actions cause NPCs to do certain things and you are notified offline, etc. That seems very cool.

PS: Zombie HQ has Xbox controller gamepad support, Halo: Spartan must wait for a patch, what's up with that?