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PS4 Architect Mark Cerny: Cloud won't work well to boost graphics


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#166 M_Lyons10

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 16:12

He is absolutely right (But in classic Sony fashion a bit misleading)...

 

Graphics rendering (Or using the cloud to directly improve graphics quality) is absolutely not something that works well in the cloud...

 

However, data calculations, math, and logic is (Which is what the XBox One is designed to be able to do)...  Now, it shouldn't be a hard stretch to understand that if the console itself doesn't need to do these other (Data intensive) calculations, it will be freed up to focus more on graphics rendering. 

 

Hence, indirectly allowing for improved graphics...

 

At no time did Microsoft (Or anyone) suggest that they were actually rendering graphics elements in the cloud.  LOL  In fact, they were quite clear (One of the few things they explained) on what was going to be offloaded to the cloud (If the developer chooses to).




#167 spudtrooper

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 16:22

He is absolutely right (But in classic Sony fashion a bit misleading)...

 

Graphics rendering (Or using the cloud to directly improve graphics quality) is absolutely not something that works well in the cloud...

 

However, data calculations, math, and logic is (Which is what the XBox One is designed to be able to do)...  Now, it shouldn't be a hard stretch to understand that if the console itself doesn't need to do these other (Data intensive) calculations, it will be freed up to focus more on graphics rendering. 

 

Hence, indirectly allowing for improved graphics...

 

At no time did Microsoft (Or anyone) suggest that they were actually rendering graphics elements in the cloud.  LOL  In fact, they were quite clear (One of the few things they explained) on what was going to be offloaded to the cloud (If the developer chooses to).

 

the only thing i've seen mentioned and beat like a dead horse is

 

"While latency-sensitive actions will be handled by a user's Xbox One console, Microsoft claims its cloud architecture can pre-calculate elements like lighting and physics modeling, leading to increased in-game performance."

 

Of course there is lots of robustness on interactive worlds and dynamic / changing conditions based upon near real time user interacticity.

 

lighting and physics modeling can be terribly expensive and if you "cloud" enable that, that certainly does open up lots of opportunity to do other things with the always finite local resources.

 

I'm still not sure how sony doesn't see that as viable/possible or apparently not worthwhile.  The only safe thing to assume is that Sony didn't engineer for such  at all while Microsoft did and it will be up to the developers to prove the concept out.

 

All that being said, the "Cloud" is a huge enabler - an opportunity for people to challenge the status quo. It certainly isn't a hinderence.



#168 trooper11

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 16:26

Considering flamebait/FUD/trolling on Neowin seems to be anything that is critical of the Xbox One, sure.

 

 

Unfortunately, it works both ways. I've seen people on both sides troll and flamebait the other side. Why does there have to be a side at all?

 

The worst thing we could do is try to claim its only coming from one side.

 

 

Regardless, thanks for posting that interview. Mark is a smart guy and its good to hear his insights regarding the inner workings of the Sony architecture.

 

I'm not sure why you chose to pick out that one line as the thread title, but based on your opening post, I guess the point was to show this as evidence against MS strategy. On the surface, I agree that the cloud won't improve graphics as Mark pointed out. The problem with using this against MS is that they have said the exact same thing. In fact, I don't think Mark intended to invalidate any use for cloud computing. MS made it clear they don't see this as a way to improve graphics and have laid out the areas where it can make sense.

 

You guys should be well aware of MS' statements on this, so why does it have to be an argument? I guess 'stocking the fire' is more fun.



#169 +Brandon Live

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 18:29

Games have already been doing the things you mention for many years, except they were using their own servers rather than Microsoft's (in general). So this is likely to only benefit smaller game developers/publishers who would otherwise not have access to a large server farm. This is cool, mind you, but not as revolutionary as E3 marketing had put it.

 

I wouldn't consider Bungie / 343 / MS Studios to be a "smaller" game developer. Halo games always run the multiplayer off of one player's box. Cost was one reason but surely not the only one. It's difficult to have centralized servers set up in a way that offers low-latency connections around the world. Unless you have something like Azure, with datacenters already running around the world, with things like the Azure Traffic Manager to route traffic to the nearest / lowest latency server.

 

The main things I think Microsoft are pushing here consist of:

  • They have infrastructure at a scale only one or two others in the world have available (i.e. Amazon).
  • They're certainly working on code and tools to help game developers take the most advantage of it.
    • I would guess this also includes facilitating access between a game's cloud services and Xbox Live.
  • It sounds like they may be offering to foot the bill for some of this? That part I'm not at all clear on.


#170 +Brandon Live

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 18:36

It was glaringly obvious the markup reference was tied into the analogy that was being made on the same paragraph, I'm not sure how you managed turn that into the guff above, are you on psychotropic medication?

 

You demonstrate you haven't understood a single word that has been said thus far. Yes, the "cloud" is an incredibly broad buzzword in use today but it's quite clear in context that "cloud" refers to a highly and easily scalable compute platform. Ultimately if it's serving HTTP, game servers, or game engine compute workloads doesn't matter. The infrastructure for allocation, scaling and distribution is already there, the internet connectivity is already there - all you need to "leverage the power of the cloud" is to have a client that communicates with server software.

 

This is incredibly simple stuff, and it astounds me you struggle to comprehend this.

 

You're greatly oversimplifying things. And yes, they could just give a bunch of Azure resources to developers (or let them get those resources themselves via traditional means). But surely they're doing more than that here.



#171 Athernar

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 20:56

You're greatly oversimplifying things. And yes, they could just give a bunch of Azure resources to developers (or let them get those resources themselves via traditional means). But surely they're doing more than that here.

 

Oh I fully agree, I am vastly simplifying things and I don't want to diminsh the effort that must have gone it to create Azure.

 

But at the same time, there isn't a fundamental difference or sorcery required with on a game system application that some people claimed there "must" be.



#172 Yogurtmaster

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 00:57

What that must say then for the people who get emotionally riled up then if I'm petty...

 

It's not that your only petty but you are wrong a lot of the time.  



#173 Yogurtmaster

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 01:06

Quoting this brilliant post in it's entirety as it needs to be seen.

 

There is a great deal of blind fanboyism behind this Xbox cloud nonsense, and it needs to stop before people get critically disappointed at the reality of the situation.

 

If it was possible to do what people are claiming in this thread, then why bother with the Xbox One in the first place? It would be far more economical to use the "power of the cloud" to extend the life of the 360 even further.

 

With having a lot more memory, more power, lower latency controller and having hardware that is dedicated towards server processing that is a huge difference.   The LZ-77 part of the "move" hardware actually compress and decompress data (including 3D mesh assets) from and to the server on-the-fly in hardware and in the background and then if needed can inject this directly into the GPU memory.  The Xbox 360, doesn't have features like what I listed.   That is a big deal.

 

So, it's not non sense at all.  You just have to have some understanding about what Microsoft is trying to do.



#174 Athernar

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 15:44

With having a lot more memory, more power, lower latency controller and having hardware that is dedicated towards server processing that is a huge difference.   The LZ-77 part of the "move" hardware actually compress and decompress data (including 3D mesh assets) from and to the server on-the-fly in hardware and in the background and then if needed can inject this directly into the GPU memory.  The Xbox 360, doesn't have features like what I listed.   That is a big deal.

 

So, it's not non sense at all.  You just have to have some understanding about what Microsoft is trying to do.

 

That's all very nice and all but it doesn't change anything, you're just saving yourself a few cycles on an expected workload. It's not a fundamental requirement of using the tech.



#175 GotBored

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 11:53

At no time did Microsoft (Or anyone) suggest that they were actually rendering graphics elements in the cloud.  LOL  In fact, they were quite clear (One of the few things they explained) on what was going to be offloaded to the cloud (If the developer chooses to).

 

Yes but that doesn't stop people from saying it does, I feel sorry for anyone who falls for the 'cloud' hype and eventually becomes disappointed with the end result.



#176 JonnyLH

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 12:44

Yes but that doesn't stop people from saying it does, I feel sorry for anyone who falls for the 'cloud' hype and eventually becomes disappointed with the end result.

http://www.oxm.co.uk...ty-on-xbox-one/



#177 GotBored

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 13:01

 

Not a single source you or anyone here have posted has any substance which suggest the 'cloud' will improve graphics.

 

The source you posted says that AI will be smarter, water will stimulate wave moves based on other players and the city reacts to you. I know these are the benefits of the cloud.



#178 illage3

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 13:13

If the Xbox One is using the cloud to boost games, then that is TECHINCALLY always online.  As if you want the "Full" experience of the game, you need to have the cloud calculate some stuff, yet what if your internet goes down? What if Xbox Live goes down?   Has no one thought of this?

 

I'm not saying that the PS4 is bad because it doesn't have cloud support, but because of this PS4 games should (in theory) not require an internet connection to experience the "Full" game.



#179 spenser.d

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 13:27

Not a single source you or anyone here have posted has any substance which suggest the 'cloud' will improve graphics.

 

The source you posted says that AI will be smarter, water will stimulate wave moves based on other players and the city reacts to you. I know these are the benefits of the cloud.

 

It's the logical assumption though.  If developers can offload other tasks to the cloud that would normally be done by the hardware, the physical hardware has more resources to beef up the graphics.  The end result (improved graphics) is a benefit of cloud processing, even if not a direct benefit.  You're arguing semantics at this point.



#180 BajiRav

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 13:34

Not a single source you or anyone here have posted has any substance which suggest the 'cloud' will improve graphics.
 
The source you posted says that AI will be smarter, water will stimulate wave moves based on other players and the city reacts to you. I know these are the benefits of the cloud.

XB1 has X amount of processing capacity.
A game requires Y+Z for processing.
If Z can be offloaded without affecting game experience, a developer can choose to do it.

A traditional game will adjust Y+Z to fit within X.
An XB1 game will offload Z and will have the entire X for processing Y.

That's the whole ######ing point of "cloud" in XB1. Is it very hard to understand?