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Xbox One "Who's telling the Truth about the Cloud"


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#31 trooper11

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 17:06

Ok this is just silly.

 

I have yet to see people claiming that the cloud will mean better graphics or that the cloud can handle that aspect of a game. Instead, it seems like its the detractors that continuously bring this up to cast a negative light on MS. Why are people beating this subject into the ground? Even MS themselves don't claim this.  I swear if this was a tech being pushed by Sony it wouldn't be getting this attention.

 

Anyone actually following the facts and statements from MS and other sources is clear:

 

The cloud can be leverage for aspects of games that are not required at real time or at a very low latency, which includes rendering graphics. This MIGHT affect graphics only as far as allowing a dev to devote more local resources to graphics rendering.  The cloud also offers the obvious benefits of an mmo type game and dedicated servers for all games.

 

This is not something that only MS can offer, but MS is aggressively pursuing it and leveraging their mature Azure infrastructure to offer to developers. They are giving dedicated server access for ALL X1 games and guaranteeing developers access to cloud storage and resources.

 

Sony could certainly offer something similar, but they aren't at the moment. Gakai may leverage the cloud to stream gameplay, but Sony has made no mention of offering the kind of infrastructure that MS is to developers. All I have heard is that the Gakai will serve the same purpose it had in the past: serving Sony's game collection and possibly offering ps3 games.




#32 OP GotBored

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:47

I couldn't believe when I saw response to my post. I thought X,Y,Z maths was simple to follow. :/

 

and WTF is Onya? :huh:

 

Wow and Wow, The maths was the same I only substituted XB1 for Onya.

Onya is another console.

 

So in essence you don't even know your own maths nor anything about a console which almost all gaming related sites have posted information on.

 

Where do you get you valuable Xbox One information from if you don't actually read gaming related news? 'the cloud'?

 

 

I have yet to see people claiming that the cloud will mean better graphics or that the cloud can handle that aspect of a game. Instead, it seems like its the detractors that continuously bring this up to cast a negative light on MS. Why are people beating this subject into the ground? Even MS themselves don't claim this.  I swear if this was a tech being pushed by Sony it wouldn't be getting this attention.

 

Anyone actually following the facts and statements from MS and other sources is clear:

 

The cloud can be leverage for aspects of games that are not required at real time or at a very low latency, which includes rendering graphics. This MIGHT affect graphics only as far as allowing a dev to devote more local resources to graphics rendering.  The cloud also offers the obvious benefits of an mmo type game and dedicated servers for all games.

 

This is not something that only MS can offer, but MS is aggressively pursuing it and leveraging their mature Azure infrastructure to offer to developers. They are giving dedicated server access for ALL X1 games and guaranteeing developers access to cloud storage and resources.

 

Sony could certainly offer something similar, but they aren't at the moment. Gakai may leverage the cloud to stream gameplay, but Sony has made no mention of offering the kind of infrastructure that MS is to developers. All I have heard is that the Gakai will serve the same purpose it had in the past: serving Sony's game collection and possibly offering ps3 games.

 
I know Microsoft don't claim that the 'cloud' will improve graphics but if you can't see fanboys claiming that here in this forum you are blind.
Look back on this thread even, people are trying to justify that the cloud can improve graphics because it can offload local processing. But having an item in the cloud so it can be available on your console, PC, etc doesn't equal better graphics, your local gpu has to render that item because its latency dependent. Your console or PC can have that item stored locally instead but then it uses local storage and the game world isn't update-able and always changing like cloud/MMO server games.

 

Some guy mentioned the asteroid tracking.. well a single asteroid only needs four way points if wanting to display in 3d or two way points in 2d,

So for 3D you need four numbers multiplied by 10,000 (asteroids) therefore need 40,000 numbers. (each asteroid with origin, x, y and z axis) and those numbers will have a number count of four each.

 

To send this information in a standard txt format it only requires 3.2MB, So if I wanted each asteroids location to be updated every second I would need a 3.2mb line. Its a lot more likely it would be updated less frequently though, maybe 10mins, 30mins or higher increment. Its doesn't really matter though, as the local host (computer, console, whatever) reads that information and then renders it into a format you want it to be seen in (e.g 3D mapping software).

 

I could render it into a 3d mapping display on a system built in the 90's if I wanted to, but it wouldn't be able to look as good as it can look on a system with higher specs. Because processed data sent to you is still limited by your local hardware capabilities.



#33 +MikeChipshop

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:56

 

Onya is another console.

 

:/



#34 OP GotBored

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 09:34

:/

 

Sorry, Ouya.



#35 +MikeChipshop

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 09:35

Sorry, Ouya.

 

Jesus, i could have second guessed that but i was having a brain fart :p



#36 OP GotBored

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 09:51

I don't mean this to come off as rude by any means, so I apologize in advance...  LOL

 

But I do not understand HOW people can be THIS confused about what the cloud is capable of for the XBox One in 2013!  This isn't some voodoo technology that is brand new or anything.  LOL


 

EXACTLY!

 

When the cloud is doing the math and the console is just creating the sprites, etc., it could have a significant impact.  The example was shown of a ton of asteroids in space (Completely calculated and rendered on the console), then they hooked in to the cloud and had 10 times that number of asteroids able to be displayed (I forget the exact difference).  That is something that, at that graphics quality would not have been possible without the cloud.  BUT if the graphics were less detailed, they would have been able to render more of the asteroids locally...  It works both ways.

 

The Xbox One may have had pre-mapped trajectories so therefore it had to process the trajectory data compared to current time and then was fed co-ordinate data directly for the rest of them which would mean less local processing of data for more asteroids. This is handy for external sensor outputs but for game engines which are already mapped out on your game disc or files on hdd not so useful. But like you said it doesn't improve graphics quality and something you didn't mention is its dependent on your connection speed and latency, what was the update interval frequency of the asteroids by the way?



#37 JonnyLH

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 09:53

The Xbox One may have had pre-mapped trajectories so therefore it had to process the trajectory data compared to current time and then was fed co-ordinate data directly for the rest of them which would mean less local processing of data for more asteroids. This is handy for external sensor outputs but for game engines which are already mapped out on your game disc or files on hdd not so useful. But like you said it doesn't improve graphics quality and something you didn't mention is its dependent on your connection speed and latency, what was the update interval frequency of the asteroids by the way?

A lot of straws are being clutched here. 



#38 OP GotBored

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:19

A lot of straws are being clutched here. 

 

Is that you way of saying its beyond your understanding? cause its an explanation of how the asteroids being externally processed could be beneficial to the 'cloud' claims.

 

Or are you saying that you changed your mind and are now in agreement that the 'cloud' cannot improve graphics.



#39 JonnyLH

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:27

Is that you way of saying its beyond your understanding? cause its an explanation of how the asteroids being externally processed could be beneficial to the 'cloud' claims.

 

Or are you saying that you changed your mind and are now in agreement that the 'cloud' cannot improve graphics.

I'll be honest, you said that and I was like "What?" because the way I read it cast a negative spin. I just can't make heads or tails for how its wrote. Are you saying that you can calculate asteroid trajectory in the cloud so it free's local resources? If so, then we're on the same page.



#40 blerk

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:35

The Xbox One may have had pre-mapped trajectories so therefore it had to process the trajectory data compared to current time and then was fed co-ordinate data directly for the rest of them which would mean less local processing of data for more asteroids. This is handy for external sensor outputs but for game engines which are already mapped out on your game disc or files on hdd not so useful. But like you said it doesn't improve graphics quality and something you didn't mention is its dependent on your connection speed and latency, what was the update interval frequency of the asteroids by the way?

 

N.b: I cannot find any video on this at the moment, though I definitely remember seeing one. I have an overview of what was happening here (from polygon).

 

I think it can be argued that the cloud processing has improved the graphics ability of the Xbox - whereas at one point it was only able to accurately calculate and render 40,000 asteroids, with the "cloud" behind it - it can do the same for 300,000. It's not freeing up any local resources and its definitely not improving the graphics capability in an "ooh now the XB1 can do 4K vs 1080p!!!" sort of way; but the simple act of being able to show more stuff, stuff that otherwise is beyond the capability of the console alone, seems to me to be improving the graphics.

 

Of course, I might just be arguing over semantics - i.e. the precise meaning of "graphics" but I do see the point of those who claim that the cloud is actually showing benefits in regards of XB1's capabilities. 



#41 OP GotBored

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:02

N.b: I cannot find any video on this at the moment, though I definitely remember seeing one. I have an overview of what was happening here (from polygon).

 

I think it can be argued that the cloud processing has improved the graphics ability of the Xbox - whereas at one point it was only able to accurately calculate and render 40,000 asteroids, with the "cloud" behind it - it can do the same for 300,000. It's not freeing up any local resources and its definitely not improving the graphics capability in an "ooh now the XB1 can do 4K vs 1080p!!!" sort of way; but the simple act of being able to show more stuff, stuff that otherwise is beyond the capability of the console alone, seems to me to be improving the graphics.

 

Of course, I might just be arguing over semantics - i.e. the precise meaning of "graphics" but I do see the point of those who claim that the cloud is actually showing benefits in regards of XB1's capabilities. 

 

Apparently everyone has seen a video or a document which says the 'cloud' will improve graphics but can't find it when it comes to posting a source.

 

As for your other source, it doesn't say anything about improved graphics.

 

The example by Microsoft above is definitely doable, so long as the AI being offloaded to the cloud is AI that you’re not interacting with, so basically AI that is far away enough that you can’t interact with it(for example, villagers on remote villages on an Elder Scrolls game).

 

 

It even paints a worse picture than I expected, I thought it could process interactive AI in the cloud but your source suggests otherwise.



#42 BajiRav

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:08

Wow and Wow, The maths was the same I only substituted XB1 for Onya.
Onya is another console.
 
So in essence you don't even know your own maths nor anything about a console which almost all gaming related sites have posted information on.
 
Where do you get you valuable Xbox One information from if you don't actually read gaming related news? 'the cloud'?

I know "my maths" alright. I still don't understand your response. What does Ouya have anything to do with XB1's features? I wasn't portraying if-but scenarios.

Sorry, Ouya.


/facepalm

#43 OP GotBored

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 11:41

I know "my maths" alright. I still don't understand your response. What does Ouya have anything to do with XB1's features? I wasn't portraying if-but scenarios.

 

I thought the response was fairly easy to comprehend, My point was your scenario could be associated with any other console (Which is why I used Ouya as an example).

 

I'm sure some people will jump up and call me a Sony fanboy again cause I use the PS4 as a comparison but here it goes anyway;

http://www.polygon.c...ng-calculations

The PS4 does processing in the cloud also and in the same way I'm adamant that it can't improve graphics on the Xbox One, it also can't improve them on the PS4.

 

I'm not being anti-Xbox, All I'm saying is the cloud won't improve graphics. If Sony marketed the same hype over the 'cloud' I'd be arguing the exact same thing with ps fanboys.



#44 blerk

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:17

Apparently everyone has seen a video or a document which says the 'cloud' will improve graphics but can't find it when it comes to posting a source.

 

As for your other source, it doesn't say anything about improved graphics.

 

 

It even paints a worse picture than I expected, I thought it could process interactive AI in the cloud but your source suggests otherwise.

 

 

I think you completely misunderstood my point, that point being that the fact that the Xbox is able to compute+render all 300,000 asteroids vs. the previous 40,000 surely counts as some form of a graphical upgrade.

 

Another person here that claims that there were large increases in fps and elements being displayed on screen.

 

What Sony says seems to be that developers can implement extra cloud features if they like on PS4 games and Sony will be perfectly happy but the devs shouldn't expect any particular help or Sony-native implementation of the sorts of things that Xbox are talking about. 

 

But really, all the talk about Xbox cloud (and PS4's hardware advantages) are interesting but imo ultimately pointless unless something cool actually comes out of the tech. So I shall wait. :)



#45 BajiRav

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:53

I thought the response was fairly easy to comprehend, My point was your scenario could be associated with any other console (Which is why I used Ouya as an example).
 
I'm sure some people will jump up and call me a Sony fanboy again cause I use the PS4 as a comparison but here it goes anyway;
http://www.polygon.c...ng-calculations
The PS4 does processing in the cloud also and in the same way I'm adamant that it can't improve graphics on the Xbox One, it also can't improve them on the PS4.
 
I'm not being anti-Xbox, All I'm saying is the cloud won't improve graphics. If Sony marketed the same hype over the 'cloud' I'd be arguing the exact same thing with ps fanboys.

You are not being anti-anything but ant-comprehension. I don't care if PS4 can do cloud stuff, Xbox One is doing it. I can start a social network and make billions but Mark Zukerburg is already doing it.

I was not potraying hypothetical scenario where Sony will suddenly find billions in pocket change to match AWS/Azure infrastructure.

 

I presented a simple breakdown of how cloud can help free up local resources and make them available for graphics. Is it really that difficult to understand?