153 posts in this topic

So all HDD drives come with SSD caches now? Seriously?

 

No hard drive comes with SSD caches, SSD Cache is when you use a standard HDD with a SSD and link them as one drive.

 

I don't think you understand what SSD cache is about so here is an explanation:

 

http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/How-it-Works-Intel-SSD-Caching-148/

 

or here:

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4329/intel-z68-chipset-smart-response-technology-ssd-caching-review/2

 

SSD Caching or Intel's SRT (Smart Response Technology) allows a SSD to boost a HDD's performance, but you still need both and having just SSD's (Solid State Drives) is faster.

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There would be no performance hit by installing a larger hard drive.

You guys are really starting to struggle to justify what amounts to simply a bad decision.

See people said it was bad last time around, but it made almost no difference in the end. Its funny that anyone would expect anything more. Such a small amount of the market wants this that its no benefit to MS to implement it.

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No hard drive comes with SSD caches, SSD Cache is when you use a standard HDD with a SSD and link them as one drive.

 

I don't think you understand what SSD cache is about so here is an explanation:

 

http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/How-it-Works-Intel-SSD-Caching-148/

 

or here:

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4329/intel-z68-chipset-smart-response-technology-ssd-caching-review/2

 

SSD Caching or Intel's SRT (Smart Response Technology) allows a SSD to boost a HDD's performance, but you still need both and having just SSD's (Solid State Drives) is faster.

Hyrid Hard Drives do come with solid state caches. There's a slight price premium and they do perform better. Just hasn't taken off much with the performance of 64MB cache ram and the relatively low price of 128-256GB SSDs.

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There would be no performance hit by installing a larger hard drive.

 

You guys are really starting to struggle to justify what amounts to simply a bad decision.

 

:yes:

 

Especially now the X1 will be using BR. Those game installs are going to eat up 500 GB very fast on both consoles (N)

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Hyrid Hard Drives do come with solid state caches. There's a slight price premium and they do perform better. Just hasn't taken off much with the performance of 64MB cache ram and the relatively low price of 128-256GB SSDs.

 

SSD and HDD are physically two separate things, HDD reads off a disc, SSD (Solid State) has no disc of any kind or motors to drive the discs.

 

An hybrid drive is both in one module, its a HDD with a NAND Flash memory. So yes it is SSD caching but its the same thing I mentioned earlier.

 

Key word 'Hybrid'

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SSD and HDD are physically two separate things, HDD reads off a disc, SSD (Solid State) has no disc of any kind or motors to drive the discs.

 

An hybrid drive is both in one module, its a HDD with a NAND Flash memory. So yes it is SSD caching but its the same thing I mentioned earlier.

 

Key word 'Hybrid'

You are correct above but you did say no HDD comes with SSD caching. Technically, not correct. Intel SRT is fairly new. Microsoft a few years ago was actually pushing for SSD cache in HDDs but with OS optimizations and the emergence of low cost SSDs it kind of faded away. Also, SRT is not really worth it, though I don't believe you have to use the entire SSD. I have it but have no need to install it. I File History to an older 2TB SATA2 drive at 110MBs R/W. It's actually a silent green drive 5900 RPM so I'm good. Of course, for backup, speed really isn't an issue at this point. Storage capacity and speed really just aren't big issues anymore for PCs or Consoles. Enthusiasts always want to push the specs though, it's a hobby, it's fun, but it's rarely necessary.

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If the hdd fails you'd likely have to send it in to Sony anyways as you wouldn't be able to get the OS off of it and onto your new hdd.

 

No. You install a new HDD and it formats it ready for use.

 

See people said it was bad last time around, but it made almost no difference in the end. Its funny that anyone would expect anything more. Such a small amount of the market wants this that its no benefit to MS to implement it.

 

Based on what? Is there any research or figures in this area? Or is this just more of "If MS doesn't do it they must have a very good reason why" kind of stuff?

 

Frankly, when it comes to giving consumers what they want MS isn't exactly winning any awards.

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No. You install a new HDD and it formats it ready for use.

Formatting a new HD and installing firmware/OS from thumbdrive is one of the PS3's neater features.

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PS3/PS4 Replacable Hard Drive:
+You can use a larger/faster drive than the stock drive for more room and/or better performance.
+Doesn't void the warranty.
+You don't have to send the console in to Sony if your HD fails. You can buy a new HD and install the OS on it, then restore your files from a backup.
+Internal is faster than external, esp. with hybrid or SSD drives.
+Third party drives are much cheaper than MS's proprietary ones.
+PS4 also supports external storage devices.

Xbox One has none of those advantages, and a whole bunch of negatives:
-External drive enclosures are an extra expense.
-You have to send your console in to MS if the non-replacable drive fails. And no, MS isn't going to recover the files off the dead drive for you, that kind of diagnostic data recovery service is expensive.
-You can't install or run games from "the cloud", that's not what the """unlimited storage""" is for.
-MS will probably take you for a ride to replace the internal HD, given how expensive 360 drives are. That's on top of the shipping costs.

As usual the PS4 comes out ahead by far in the all important storage category.

I remember reading a while ago that the drive is non-replacable because making it replacable would cause airflow/heating issues, and the X1 was ordered to be near silent. The X1 being quieter than the PS4 might be one of the few advantages it has, although we don't know the noise levels of PS4 yet.

By the way, we don't know if either drive is a hybrid w/ flash cache. Obviously if one of them was a hybrid and one wasn't, the hybrid would have a speed advantage.

Actually I put a spare 128GB SSD into my PS3 and save game load times were noticably faster. I expect a real benefit for putting an SSD in PS4 as well.

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You are correct above but you did say no HDD comes with SSD caching. Technically, not correct. Intel SRT is fairly new. Microsoft a few years ago was actually pushing for SSD cache in HDDs but with OS optimizations and the emergence of low cost SSDs it kind of faded away. Also, SRT is not really worth it, though I don't believe you have to use the entire SSD. I have it but have no need to install it. I File History to an older 2TB SATA2 drive at 110MBs R/W. It's actually a silent green drive 5900 RPM so I'm good. Of course, for backup, speed really isn't an issue at this point. Storage capacity and speed really just aren't big issues anymore for PCs or Consoles. Enthusiasts always want to push the specs though, it's a hobby, it's fun, but it's rarely necessary.

 

Technically it is correct, the hybrid is not a HDD it is a hybrid HDD + SSD.

 

Also buying an SSD over a HDD isn't a hobby, its about performance and the SSD performs much better than the HDD.

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Technically it is correct, the hybrid is not a HDD it is a hybrid HDD + SSD.

 

Also buying an SSD over a HDD isn't a hobby, its about performance and the SSD performs much better than the HDD.

It absolutely is an HDD with an SSD fro caching in the same enclosure. It is in effect the same as SRT. Separate SSD and HDD the only difference being SRT uses the PC case as the enclosure.

"Enthusiasts always want to push the specs though, it's a hobby, it's fun, but it's rarely necessary."

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"Enthusiasts always want to push the specs though, it's a hobby, it's fun, but it's rarely necessary."

 

No need for performance increases..

 

So you think we should be playing Atari 2600 instead?

 

Atari2600.jpg

 

I cannot understand how you can justify hardware improvements as unnecessary, you know how every software (including games) have minimum requirements to run.. well its necessary for your system to meet or exceed these requirements for it to function.

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Now... It's hdd swap out that's being nitpicked about...

 

I've been saying, I swap out the hdd on my 60gb PS3 and 80gb PS3...

 

And it has been 7 and 6 years respectfully....  And guess what... I still have a 60bg PS3 and a 80gb PS3...

 

Its funny how the it's the petty none issues that matter... lets be honest...

 

You can't swap the hdd out... time to cancel the pre-orders.... etc, etc, insert rant, etc...

 

Get over yourselves...

 

It's funny how people try to drown out Microsoft's awesome features with petty little things...

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No need for performance increases..

 

So you think we should be playing Atari 2600 instead?

 

 

 

I cannot understand how you can justify hardware improvements as unnecessary, you know how every software (including games) have minimum requirements to run.. well its necessary for your system to meet or exceed these requirements for it to function.

 

And that's fine, in a PC context.  Wanting to improve your console hardware specs defeats the purpose of a console and the cost-benefit is miniscule anyways.  You're not going to see significant gains with any hard drive you choose, and you can't really replace any other hardware and expect anything out of it.  If you want to get into hardware improvements, PC gaming will take you in with open arms.  The point of console gaming is that it's optimized for a particular set of hardware and won't take advantage of anything else.

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As you all know, the future of storage is external. 

 

mac_pro_new.jpg

:D  :D  :D

 

I'm not following your post. You say the future of storage is external, but you post a picture of a wastebasket. Are you saying we would throw things away instead of upgrading them?

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And that's fine, in a PC context.  Wanting to improve your console hardware specs defeats the purpose of a console and the cost-benefit is miniscule anyways.  You're not going to see significant gains with any hard drive you choose, and you can't really replace any other hardware and expect anything out of it.  If you want to get into hardware improvements, PC gaming will take you in with open arms.  The point of console gaming is that it's optimized for a particular set of hardware and won't take advantage of anything else.

 

This makes zero sense.  Swapping the stock drive with something faster WILL show improvements.  Swapping an HDD with an SSD will have a massive improvement in load times.  It might not show AS much improvement if the software isn't designed to take advantage of SSD but there will be a noticeable difference.

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This makes zero sense.  Swapping the stock drive with something faster WILL show improvements.  Swapping an HDD with an SSD will have a massive improvement in load times.  It might not show AS much improvement if the software isn't designed to take advantage of SSD but there will be a noticeable difference.

 

I haven't heard of any vast improvements from people swapping their PS3 HDDs.  I doubt most people would notice it, though I guess anyone who would actually care to replace the internal drive would be the ones to notice.  The biggest gains came from being able to install games to the drive, not from swapping drives.

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You can't swap the hdd out... time to cancel the pre-orders.... etc, etc, insert rant, etc...

 

Get over yourselves...

 

It's funny how people try to drown out Microsoft's awesome features with petty little things...

Having to ship your console to MS because the drive died is a "petty little thing". Of course, you also have to insult everyone else who disagrees with you. I doubt anyone cancelled their preorder over removable storage, they likely never had a preorder to begin with.

 

MS had better hope kinect and HDMI input are "awesome features" worth the $100 price hike to consumers. I don't think they will be.

 

Replacing the PS3 drive with an SSD leads to noticably faster load times. Also see http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-can-ssd-upgrades-boost-ps3-performance

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It's funny how people try to drown out Microsoft's awesome features with petty little things...

 

You do realize this is a thread about the PS4 in the Sony Console - Gaming Section.

 

Also the people who initially started the comparisons are pro-xbox clan and decided they needed to defend the Xbox One when no one was even comparing it.

So if your going to blame anyone about pointing out the Xbox One's shortcomings blame them.

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The increased performance re PS3 SSD seems to be disputed. Considering the price of SSDs it doesn't seem to be wise to drop that kind of cash upgrading your console in that way.

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And that's fine, in a PC context.  Wanting to improve your console hardware specs defeats the purpose of a console and the cost-benefit is miniscule anyways.  You're not going to see significant gains with any hard drive you choose, and you can't really replace any other hardware and expect anything out of it.  If you want to get into hardware improvements, PC gaming will take you in with open arms.  The point of console gaming is that it's optimized for a particular set of hardware and won't take advantage of anything else.

This might be the first time I've agreed with you in here. Obviously we must remain within the context of the thread.

With that in mind, with XBOne having a Windows 8-ish OS, there is a remote possibility it could take advantage of SSDs, but since it's not removable ... and not really necessary vs. the cost.

The increased performance re PS3 SSD seems to be disputed. Considering the price of SSDs it doesn't seem to be wise to drop that kind of cash upgrading your console in that way.

I just put an xtra HyperX 3K 128 in a slim I just bought refurb from Sony. Not much noticeable improvement. But, it was just laying around and the PS3 is absolutely silent with it. Long reads do well though and switching from PSN and XMB seems faster. Clearly, the HD is/was not a bottleneck for the PS3 in general.

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The increased performance re PS3 SSD seems to be disputed. Considering the price of SSDs it doesn't seem to be wise to drop that kind of cash upgrading your console in that way.

 

A drive swap will make more of a difference with more modern hardware.  Isn't the PS3 just SATA1? 

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I just put an xtra HyperX 3K 128 in a slim I just bought refurb from Sony. Not much noticeable improvement. But, it was just laying around and the PS3 is absolutely silent with it. Long reads do well though and switching from PSN and XMB seems faster. Clearly, the HD is/was not a bottleneck for the PS3 in general.

 

"A bottleneck is a phenomenon where the performance or capacity of an entire system is limited by a single or limited number of components or resources."

 

Like being limited to a certain read/write speed?

 

I'd say the HDD would be a bottleneck if load times or menu switching was noticeably improved as you mentioned.

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"A bottleneck is a phenomenon where the performance or capacity of an entire system is limited by a single or limited number of components or resources."

 

Like being limited to a certain read/write speed?

 

I'd say the HDD would be a bottleneck if load times or menu switching was noticeably improved as you mentioned.

"Not much noticeable improvement."

We're talking about an SSD here. When you have to strain to find something that "seems" faster at times, it wasn't a bottleneck. But it's cooler than @##T to have one in there.

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"Not much noticeable improvement."

We're talking about an SSD here. When you have to strain to find something that "seems" faster at times, it wasn't a bottleneck. But it's cooler than @##T to have one in there.

 

Do I really need to explain the definition of 'bottleneck' again?

 

The HDD was clearly a bottleneck if you noticed improvements, even if those improvements were 'Not much noticeable improvements" - or "Not very noticeable improvements" (Which would be the proper way to phrase it)

 

I really don't need to justify performance improvements, little performance improvements are made all the time and over time they equate to large improvements. 

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