XBOX One will work without Kinect plugged in

[BajiRav]

Saying Kinect is bust for gaming because it wasn't used much for the 360 isn't fully correct.  It came late in the 360s life, it was limited in how much data it could track, 2 people max with fewer points compared to v2.  And debs weren't ready to risk it, not every 360 owner had one, that' not the case going into the start of the XB1 and Kinect v2.

 

Being quick to write it off because of the older gen is wrong IMO.

 

Let's also say PSN will continue to be crap in this new generation as well. That will be a popular opinion, right? ;)

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Motion gaming is motion gaming, you can tout incredible accuracy (move/wii plus vs original wii), but at the end of the day if someone doesn't like playing with motion gestures that isn't going to change.

 

For those that hold off for the inevitable kinectless bundle down the line, there will probably be a good selection of cheap kinect 2's going on ebay. MS quite clearly want to be able to say 50 million Kinect 2's in houses, even if it's simply due to it being bundled.

[trooper11]

Motion gaming is motion gaming, you can tout incredible accuracy (move/wii plus vs original wii), but at the end of the day if someone doesn't like playing with motion gestures that isn't going to change.

 

For those that hold off for the inevitable kinectless bundle down the line, there will probably be a good selection of cheap kinect 2's going on ebay. MS quite clearly want to be able to say 50 million Kinect 2's in houses, even if it's simply due to it being bundled.

 

Yeah, they obviously think that being able to tout that number will spur developer interest.

[trooper11]

I am sure you would have a "take it or leave it attitude" if it was Sony trying to pull the same swindle? I doubt it. You'd be trashing them relentlessly.

 

Demanding consumers pay for optional peripherals, regardless of what company does it, is a ****ty thing to do. If Sony was trying to force Move or some other additional device on us I would be saying exactly the same thing. I've been a scathing critic of the proprietary memory cards Sony uses for the Vita and the stupid proprietary connector it uses.

 

What I'm hearing is that you guys would only be happy if MS lowers the price to match the PS4, eating whatever Kinect cost there is.

 

Maybe your right, I think that's  amuch better choice than unbundling Kinect since that would certainly be a black mark against it.

 

 

 

 

So bundling a accessory which does motion control is different?

 

Did you notice that the PS4 controller has a light at the front of it so the PS Eye could be used with it.. 'enhancing the controller experience'. :/  

 

 

Do you think its more likely to be made use of on the PS4 as it is (i.e. unbundled) vs the X1 (i.e. bundled)?

 

 

I personally am a fan of the Kinect and am happy they are bundling it, but I do agree with many people here that it shouldn't be forced onto everyone. Any extra accessory should really be good enough to sell itself.

 

It wasn't the lack of developer's using the kinect of current-gen that made it frustrating and unappealing at times.

 

 

See this is what I don't get.  Why do you think that developer interest was not a problem? Why can't it be a combo of developer interest and hardware issues?

 

I see posters here that obviously have no interest in the motion gaming concept, and yet they insist on attacking people that are interested.  Sometimes I feel like I'm not even allowed to mention it out of fear of getting steam rolled.

 

Arguing over whether Kinect is 'innovative' , a term that has been destroyed by the gaming community, is ridiculous.  Its a word with little meaning now.  The new Kinect is an evolution of the first Kinect.  It has improved hardware.  We have yet to see it tested heavily, so none of us know how it will feel for gameplay.  It will still have lag.  Less than the first Kinect, but probably not as low as controller lag.  For the first Kinect, the lag could be overcome thanks to developer effort.  Casual titles like Kinect Sports worked great even with its lag.  The voice commands were already responsive enough.  If the new model really reduces that lag, that could make it more useful in a hybrid situations and more in depth motion control projects. 

 

MS sees Kinect as an integrated feature, something that they built the X1 to use from the ground up.  They didn't want it to be treated like an optional add-on.

 

What I'm seeing is that most here are not interested in it as an integrated feature and prefer it to be optional.  MS has to prove Kinect is worth it and that this time is different from the first gen. 

[HawkMan]

So bundling a accessory which does motion control is different?

 

Did you notice that the PS4 controller has a light at the front of it so the PS Eye could be used with it.. 'enhancing the controller experience'. :/  

 

Call me when the eye sees in 3D, and can follow my arm and detect each of my finger when not holding the controller, accurately track my head and body in the dark for head tracking and lean detection. 

 

Move and the PS eye are toys in comparison. 

[Woelfel]

Input lag on 360 WITH A CONTROLLER was 60ms to 200ms.

 

Input lag on the X1 WITH KINECT is 60ms~

 

Source: http://www.videogamer.com/news/xbox_one_reduces_wireless_controller_latency_by_20.html

and

Source: http://www.brekel.com/kinect-2-details/

 

Do your research.

 

First of all, you do realize that you are stating is exactly what I'm stating. There is lag, there will always be lag. Noticeable or not...lag is there.

[dead.cell]

Call me when the eye sees in 3D, and can follow my arm and detect each of my finger when not holding the controller, accurately track my head and body in the dark for head tracking and lean detection. 

 

Move and the PS eye are toys in comparison. 

 

I've seen enough demos in my time that I'll take every camera and motion detection style of play/use with a huge grain of salt. Until I've personally used it, I refuse to get my hopes up on this sort of stuff as it stands.

 

I say this not as someone who doesn't have faith in Microsoft, but rather as someone who continues to be let down by the companies that often overstate what their products can do and showing misleading demos.

[Torolol]

to make kinect bundling a success, MSFT should also bundling various --distinctly different-- attractive games that using kinect extensively.

by doing that, gamers can see that kinect bundling are justified.

 

but as for now, no kinect games at launch ...

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Input lag on 360 WITH A CONTROLLER was 60ms to 200ms.

 

Input lag on the X1 WITH KINECT is 60ms~

 

Source: http://www.videogamer.com/news/xbox_one_reduces_wireless_controller_latency_by_20.html

and

Source: http://www.brekel.com/kinect-2-details/

 

Do your research.

 

Quoting those tech specs is one thing, but real life results are another. Kinect would fidget for ages when you were just trying to move the cursor.

 

So 60ms + 30s is more accurate really ;) Or, you know, press A to select (Y)

[ahhell]

Quoting those tech specs is one thing, but real life results are another. Kinect would fidget for ages when you were just trying to move the cursor.

 

So 60ms + 30s is more accurate really ;) Or, you know, press A to select (Y)

Kinect 1 also didn't have it's own internal processor; the new one does.  MS was "forced" to remove Kinect 1's processor in order to keep the price down.  Responsiveness won't be an issue with K2.

[trooper11]

Quoting those tech specs is one thing, but real life results are another. Kinect would fidget for ages when you were just trying to move the cursor.

 

So 60ms + 30s is more accurate really ;) Or, you know, press A to select (Y)

 

Yeah, navigating menus was always a little too slow to be practical with the first Kinect.  The only game I remember that didn't seem to exhibit the issue was Dance Central, which got high marks for how it offered a fluid interface.

 

My opinion of the first Kinect was that it worked well for casual titles when developers put in the effort to tailor controls that made sense  (i.e. controls that weren't obviously lagged by the camera's limitations) Star Wars Kinect was terrible, Kinect Sports worked great. Steel Battalion, Gunstringer had reliable controls and Fable Journey was so-so.  It was really all over the map.

 

What MS must do is show us how Kinect is improved and what that means for gamers.  I don't think they should focus on Kinect-only experiences because that has a limited reach.  If this thing can offer interesting controls in addition to the standard controller, then I want to see them in action.

[trooper11]

to make kinect bundling a success, MSFT should also bundling various --distinctly different-- attractive games that using kinect extensively.

by doing that, gamers can see that kinect bundling are justified.

 

but as for now, no kinect games at launch ...

 

That's a great point.  MS just needs to show us through content.

 

I will say this though, a lot of people were ready to right off MS if they had devoted even a small amount of time to Kinect heavy experiences.

 

MS shocked everyone by not talking about a single one.  I think this was one of the few smart pr moves they made around E3.  Focus E3 on the core experience.  Yes it means you have less to show off Kinect, but it proves your serious about traditional gaming and that is likely more important.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Kinect 1 also didn't have it's own internal processor; the new one does.  MS was "forced" to remove Kinect 1's processor in order to keep the price down.  Responsiveness won't be an issue with K2.

 

I know. Although there's probably more to it than just keeping the price down. Most likely they'd already decided X1 would include Kinect & a processor would be included with it.

 

Just wondering what the point in comparing a device released in 2005 to one in 2013 means tbh. If the lag wasn't reduced I think I'd be more worried. My previous post was comparing real world results of Kinect 1 to a 360 controller, which is embarrassing since they released 5 years apart.

 

Yeah, navigating menus was always a little too slow to be practical with the first Kinect.  The only game I remember that didn't seem to exhibit the issue was Dance Central, which got high marks for how it offered a fluid interface.

 

My opinion of the first Kinect was that it worked well for casual titles when developers put in the effort to tailor controls that made sense  (i.e. controls that weren't obviously lagged by the camera's limitations) Star Wars Kinect was terrible, Kinect Sports worked great. Steel Battalion, Gunstringer had reliable controls and Fable Journey was so-so.  It was really all over the map.

 

What MS must do is show us how Kinect is improved and what that means for gamers.  I don't think they should focus on Kinect-only experiences because that has a limited reach.  If this thing can offer interesting controls in addition to the standard controller, then I want to see them in action.

 

Steel Battalion had reliable controls?! Did you play a special copy the rest of us didn't? :laugh:

 

[trooper11]

 

Steel Battalion had reliable controls?! Did you play a special copy the rest of us didn't? :laugh:

 

 

 

I only played the demo, not the full title, so maybe that's the issue?  I had read reviews that mentioned issues and some who hadn't run into them.  But if the full version of the game is really that bad, then I take back my statement on that game.

 

I can clearly see he is having issues, but then I have seen people on YouTube have issues with Kinect Sports titles when my experience at home was different.  I just chocked some of that up to the differences in things like lighting and distance.  Kinect was very sensitive to those things, making another annoyance about the platform. It didn't allow for less than ideal situations. If the new Kinect fixes that to some degree, then that's clearly a good thing.

[BajiRav]

Call me when the eye sees in 3D, and can follow my arm and detect each of my finger when not holding the controller, accurately track my head and body in the dark for head tracking and lean detection. 

 

Move and the PS eye are toys in comparison. 

add heart rate and mood detection to the list. :)

[chrisj1968]

Source: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/08/05/ask-microsoft-anything-about-xbox-one

 

Now that that's cleared up, I'm sure people will move on to complaining about it being mandatory to purchase.

even infowars.com caught this story. But good heads up Giantpotato!

[George P Global Moderator]

You guys really need to stop comparing the Kinect 2 to the first one and past experiences with it.  They're not the same anymore, the new one can do more, track more and has it's own processing hardware so it doesn't suffer from issues the original did.  Just going off of that comparing the new to the old and saying "well the first one sucked so the new one will to" is silly. 

 

How about we just wait and see what developers do with it?  We're not even into the next gen yet so we don't know what plans they have so far.  Even generally speaking, writing off something because the original version of it didn't do so well doesn't hold true.  If that was the case Android would've gone nowhere, or has everyone forgotten how ###### poor it was at v1.x?  

 

Debating weather or not it's good business wise to keep it bundled in a SKU is a different subject really,  and that's up to personal taste actually.  Maybe all it takes is for a new game to use it in a few cool ways to get people who would otherwise leave it in the box to take it out and try it?  Maybe after that they'll end up using it more where they didn't use the first one at all or skipped it?  It doesn't take much to spark interest in something if you get more people to use it.  Only time will tell though,  personally I'm looking forward to what developers can come up with now that they have a much more capable and powerful version without the issues of the first.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

How about we just wait and see what developers do with it?

 

That is my issue though. What are developers going to do with it? Right now we haven't seen anything worthwhile outside of the Xbox UI that utilizes it. Then they force it on users and we're supposed to just accept "don't worry, it won't suck like Kinect 1"?

[trooper11]

That is my issue though. What are developers going to do with it? Right now we haven't seen anything worthwhile outside of the Xbox UI that utilizes it. Then they force it on users and we're supposed to just accept "don't worry, it won't suck like Kinect 1"?

 

This is the same around and around chicken and the egg argument.

 

Developers require users and users require developers.

 

I don't know the answer, but it seems clear that MS thinks that this is the only way to insure the platform gets the attention it needs to do something better then it did this gen. It would be easier for us if we could see new content built using the new Kinect hardware, but all we have right now is ui demos.

 

This topic is probably the most frustrating in my opinion.  Mostly because we don't have a lot of hard facts to go on, just a lot of feelings and assumptions.  All we can do is voice our concern and buy what we feel has value.  If you don't see the value, you don't see the value.  If you do, you do. Sometimes people buy because they think something will offer them value beyond what they see now.  Heck, many early adopters of consoles buy for that reason.  Call them tech enthusiasts, early adopters, idiots, whatever. 

 

For me as a gamer and general consumer, I'm not put off by the lack of Kinect content at launch.  I do feel it would be a whole lot better if there was at least announcements or demos of what is to come, so I hope we see some of that before launch.  It doesn't have to be something that use Kinect exclusively either, just demos of how it can add to the overall experience. 

[MikeChipshop Member]

That is my issue though. What are developers going to do with it? Right now we haven't seen anything worthwhile outside of the Xbox UI that utilizes it. Then they force it on users and we're supposed to just accept "don't worry, it won't suck like Kinect 1"?

 

Hence the point in bundling it.

[xWhiplash]

Hence the point in bundling it.

 

Bundling is pointless though.  With the ability to disconnect Kinect, it becomes useless to bundle the accessory.  Why?  Developers will need get usage stats.  If X Xbox Ones are sold and only 10% (or some low percentage) are have ever used Kinect, developers will not waste their time.  No matter if it is bundled.  The people that do not want Kinect are not going to buy games that require Kinect (I know I won't).

 

So bundling is a useless thing from a developers point of view.  

 

This is like saying developers need to jump ship and develop only for Windows 8 because of all the sales statistics Microsoft has mentioned.  And even though it is very very common that any new computer will come with Windows 8.  Um no.  As a developer, I still target XP, Vista, and 7 since that is where the marketshare is.

 

Developers are taught to keep an eye on usage and marketshare stats.  Just because Kinect is bundled, does not mean developers will take advantage of it.  Since Kinect can be disconnected, bundling it does nothing for developers.  How do developers know people just didn't stick it in their closet the day they got it and never want to use it?

 

This is why it does not make sense to bundle it.  The fact that you guys say Kinect 1 is the fastest selling accessory of all time means Kinect can sell itself.  

 

Selling after the fact gives developers a much more guarantee than a bundle.  Why?  Well the people that actually purchase Kinect separately are USUALLY ones that WANT the device.  Now there will be some that would buy it and hate it.  But bundling it is worse in this area.

[dead.cell]

Steel Battalion had reliable controls?! Did you play a special copy the rest of us didn't? :laugh:

 

 

Thanks for posting that, I love Angry Joe. Couldn't stop laughing as his character kept reaching for every stupid knob and handle in sight! :laugh:

[HawkMan]

Bundling is pointless though.  With the ability to disconnect the controller, it becomes useless to bundle the accessory.  Why?  Developers will need get usage stats.  If X Xbox Ones are sold and only 10% (or some low percentage) are have ever used the controller, developers will not waste their time.  No matter if it is bundled.  The people that do not want the controller are not going to buy games that require the controller (I know I won't).at actually purchase the controller separately are USUALLY ones that WANT the device.  Now there will be some that would buy it and hate it.  But bundling it is worse in this area.

 

 

alternative version of your meaningless rant. which completely fails to understand the need and reason beyond bundling and the effect it will have. 

[Showan]

Bundling is pointless though.  With the ability to disconnect Kinect, it becomes useless to bundle the accessory.  Why?  Developers will need get usage stats.  If X Xbox Ones are sold and only 10% (or some low percentage) are have ever used Kinect, developers will not waste their time.  No matter if it is bundled.  The people that do not want Kinect are not going to buy games that require Kinect (I know I won't).

 

So bundling is a useless thing from a developers point of view.  

 

This is like saying developers need to jump ship and develop only for Windows 8 because of all the sales statistics Microsoft has mentioned.  And even though it is very very common that any new computer will come with Windows 8.  Um no.  As a developer, I still target XP, Vista, and 7 since that is where the marketshare is.

 

Developers are taught to keep an eye on usage and marketshare stats.  Just because Kinect is bundled, does not mean developers will take advantage of it.  Since Kinect can be disconnected, bundling it does nothing for developers.  How do developers know people just didn't stick it in their closet the day they got it and never want to use it?

 

This is why it does not make sense to bundle it.  The fact that you guys say Kinect 1 is the fastest selling accessory of all time means Kinect can sell itself.  

 

Selling after the fact gives developers a much more guarantee than a bundle.  Why?  Well the people that actually purchase Kinect separately are USUALLY ones that WANT the device.  Now there will be some that would buy it and hate it.  But bundling it is worse in this area.

Kinect bundling is the rock and the hard place... Everything you said makes sense. There is the great divide when it comes to Kinect. Some dont want to flail limbs, some do. Some feel its worth it to have a personal experience with the X1 (voice, chat, video, etc), others care less. But MS is guaranteeing all developers (Indie all the way up to AAA) that everyone has an Xbox One. It's DNA, is inside the Xbox One itself. I would like to see more Kinect footage on games as much as everyone else, but I have learned to be patient. There is Gamescom & TGS to do this. They could have another private showing and dedicate it to the Kinect. With 3months to go, I can be a tad bit patient.

Kinect v2, is what help makes the X1 different. Something that makes it stand out.

[BajiRav]

Bundling is pointless though.  With the ability to disconnect Kinect, it becomes useless to bundle the accessory.  Why?  Developers will need get usage stats.  If X Xbox Ones are sold and only 10% (or some low percentage) are have ever used Kinect, developers will not waste their time.  No matter if it is bundled.  The people that do not want Kinect are not going to buy games that require Kinect (I know I won't).

 

So bundling is a useless thing from a developers point of view.  

 

This is like saying developers need to jump ship and develop only for Windows 8 because of all the sales statistics Microsoft has mentioned.  And even though it is very very common that any new computer will come with Windows 8.  Um no.  As a developer, I still target XP, Vista, and 7 since that is where the marketshare is.

 

Developers are taught to keep an eye on usage and marketshare stats.  Just because Kinect is bundled, does not mean developers will take advantage of it.  Since Kinect can be disconnected, bundling it does nothing for developers.  How do developers know people just didn't stick it in their closet the day they got it and never want to use it?

 

This is why it does not make sense to bundle it.  The fact that you guys say Kinect 1 is the fastest selling accessory of all time means Kinect can sell itself.  

 

Selling after the fact gives developers a much more guarantee than a bundle.  Why?  Well the people that actually purchase Kinect separately are USUALLY ones that WANT the device.  Now there will be some that would buy it and hate it.  But bundling it is worse in this area.

Here is my guess: Most people will keep it kinected because it came with the system. There will be a minority (tin foil types etc) who will bitch and moan about it and keep it in a closet/sell it "on principle".

99% will use it and rest 1% won't matter in the big picture.