Developers flay Microsoft for withholding Windows 8.1 RTM

[xWhiplash]

Do we need to remind people that RTM literally means Release to Manufacturing?  That doens't mean it has to be completely finished, it just needs to be in a state where manufacturers can install it on the machines they are creating and be assured that it works. That means all the infrastructure that interfaces with the hardware is done, not necessarily (especially these days) that the software end-users use has to be completely finished.  As such it can be good enough for OEMs and not good enough for devs.

 

You guys are the ones confusing what RTM really is, not Microsoft.

 

So it is good enough where OEMs can install it and create system models with 8.1 included, but it is not good enough for developers to test with?

 

This makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Athernar]

Didn't you guys hear? Microsoft use the Google release model now, Beta is the new RTM now, and new RTM is cancelled/end of life.

[spenser.d]

So it is good enough where OEMs can install it and create system models with 8.1 included, but it is not good enough for developers to test with?

 

This makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

If you actually know what RTM means it makes plenty of sense.  The reason RTM exists is to give manufacturers time to make sure it works with the hardware they're planning on selling.  It has little to do with the parts of the software that users actually use and therefore it doesn't need to be completely finished when it hits RTM.  If Microsoft is still finishing some of that stuff up, what's the point of sending it to devs? They may as well use the preview version if we go by the logic you guys keep stating.

[techbeck]

what exactly are they going to test on rtm without the final sdk?

The whole point here is that MS is telling the DEVs they have to wait until everyone else to get their hands on the final release of 8.1.  The SDK/VS2013 will be...or very well better be...finished before 8.1 goes out to everyone.  The DEVs want the final before anyone else so they can make sure their apps are working for by the time it is released to everyone else.  Making them wait until everyone else is unacceptable especially since MS stated they are all about the developers and supporting them.

[vcfan]

The whole point here is that MS is telling the DEVs they have to wait until everyone else to get their hands on the final release of 8.1.  The SDK/VS2013 will be...or very well better be...finished before 8.1 goes out to everyone.  The DEVs want the final before anyone else so they can make sure their apps are working for by the time it is released to everyone else.  Making them wait until everyone else is unacceptable especially since MS stated they are all about the developers and supporting them.

 

windows 8.1 is not finished. the sdk is not ready. releasing the rtm version doesnt change anything. you have no clue when the sdk will be finished or not. do you work for microsoft? if not,stop trying to make your opinion sound like its a fact.

[techbeck]

windows 8.1 is not finished. the sdk is not ready. releasing the rtm version doesnt change anything. you have no clue when the sdk will be finished or not. do you work for microsoft? if not,stop trying to make your opinion sound like its a fact.

Did you not read/understand anything I posted?  Or are you to busy bleeding MS blue and defending them to see anything past that?

What I said was, and now stay with me here...MS annouced a release date for everyone to get 8.1.  MS is telling the DEVs they have to wait until everyone else to get the final 8.1.  And before everyone gets 8.1, they better have, and I am betting they will have, the final SDK/VS2013 ready as well. And they will/should have all this available well before allowing people to upgrade to 8.1.  All the DEVs want is access to the final versions of everything before anyone else so their apps are verified to work properly and are ready to go for people to download/update if a problem in the app is found.

It is not opinion...it is what the DEVs are complaining about...having to wait to get the final versions at the same time as everyone else and then having to scramble to update/test their apps.

[xWhiplash]

If you actually know what RTM means it makes plenty of sense.  The reason RTM exists is to give manufacturers time to make sure it works with the hardware they're planning on selling.  It has little to do with the parts of the software that users actually use and therefore it doesn't need to be completely finished when it hits RTM.  If Microsoft is still finishing some of that stuff up, what's the point of sending it to devs? They may as well use the preview version if we go by the logic you guys keep stating.

 

That is the point though, what is the point of sending it to OEMs if it is NOT finished yet?  Yes it does need to be finished when it hits RTM.  What if they find an issue and have to change something VERY important.  It is possible.

 

RTM should mean it is finished, only security updates and general support patches from now on.  You do not release something while it is still in development.  Because if something severe is found, what will you tell your OEMs?  They will need to rebuild their stock?

[vcfan]

Did you not read/understand anything I posted?  Or are you to busy bleeding MS blue and defending them to see anything past that?

What I said was, and now stay with me here...MS annouced a release date for everyone to get 8.1.  MS is telling the DEVs they have to wait until everyone else to get the final 8.1.  And before everyone gets 8.1, they better have, and I am betting they will have, the final SDK/VS2013 ready as well. And they will/should have all this available well before allowing people to upgrade to 8.1.  All the DEVs want is access to the final versions of everything before anyone else so their apps are verified to work properly and are ready to go for people to download/update if a problem in the app is found.

It is not opinion...it is what the DEVs are complaining about...having to wait to get the final versions at the same time as everyone else and then having to scramble to update/test their apps.

 

so lets say the sdk is not finished until and will be ready oct 17, what youre saying is, they should delay 8.1 just so developers can make their apps ready for 8.1? that is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

 

like i said, the sdk isnt ready,and the os isnt ready. developers whining because oems got the base to bring up their hardware is also stupid,whiny,childish.

[spenser.d]

That is the point though, what is the point of sending it to OEMs if it is NOT finished yet?  Yes it does need to be finished when it hits RTM.  What if they find an issue and have to change something VERY important.  It is possible.

 

RTM should mean it is finished, only security updates and general support patches from now on.  You do not release something while it is still in development.  Because if something severe is found, what will you tell your OEMs?  They will need to rebuild their stock?

 

The point is so that OEMs can test it with the hardware they are planning to sell to make sure it works.  That's what RTM is for.  It's not for developers and it doesn't mean that the softare is complete.  Updates can still be made.  The software will be done on October 18th, when it gets released.  RTM doesn't mean it is done, it means it is ready for manufaturers to test it and work out the kinks with the hardware integration.  I'm not sure how you don't understand this distinction.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

so lets say the sdk is not finished until and will be ready oct 17, what youre saying is, they should delay 8.1 just so developers can make their apps ready for 8.1? that is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

 

like i said, the sdk isnt ready,and the os isnt ready. developers whining because oems got the base to bring up their hardware is also stupid,whiny,childish.

 

Yes, they should have delayed it until they can have the SDK and developer tools to developers before getting them out to everyone else. Application support is all end users care about. They don't spend their lives starting at the Metro Start Screen drooling about Live Tiles... Maybe you do, but that is atypical.

 

The whole reason developers subscribe to MSDN is for this early access to allow them to validate their applications before general availability. This is better for everyone! Consumers who update on release date get more applications that take advantage of new features and aren't full of bugs or regressions caused by the changes (the developers have had the time to address them).

 

This is a move that Microsoft doesn't need to be making right now. They are already struggling to keep developer interest in their platforms and this certainly doesn't help.

 

Step outside of the fa boy box for a moment. The developers complaining about this, like me, are professionals who have invested lots of time developing for Microsoft platforms. If we're all complaining about moves like this then there is a good reason to listen to what those complaints are.

[techbeck]

so lets say the sdk is not finished until and will be ready oct 17, what youre saying is, they should delay 8.1 just so developers can make their apps ready for 8.1? that is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

 

like i said, the sdk isnt ready,and the os isnt ready. developers whining because oems got the base to bring up their hardware is also stupid,whiny,childish.

 

For one, I never said delay 8.1 but it would be the really ****ing stupid as hell to release 8.1 when the support apps are not finished.  Using preview releases just do not cut it and isnt a guaranteed way to make sure things are working properly.  You wouldnt rely on betas or unfinished products to support a company/organization would you?  Why would DEVs rely on unfinished products to make sure their apps are working properly.

 

Seriously dude, take off the MS blinders and open your eyes.

 

Inclosing, 8.1 AND the SDK should be finished by MS standards before 8.1 is released to the general public.  And DEVs should get first crack at the finished products.

[vcfan]

For one, I never said delay 8.1 but it would be the really ****ing stupid as hell to release 8.1 and not give the DEVs a 100% fool proof way to fix app issues caused by 8.1 and screw over the DEVs and users.  Using preview releases just do not cut it and isnt a guaranteed way to make sure things are working properly.  You wouldnt rely on betas or unfinished products to support a company/organization would you?  Why would DEVs rely on unfinished products to make sure their apps are working properly.

 

Seriously dude, take off the MS blinders and open your eyes.

 

what part of windows 8.1 not being finished dont you understand. there is nothing to release. the rtm build is not complete,therefore theres nothing to test applications with. stop arguing about it.

[Joe User]

so lets say the sdk is not finished until and will be ready oct 17, what youre saying is, they should delay 8.1 just so developers can make their apps ready for 8.1? that is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

 

like i said, the sdk isnt ready,and the os isnt ready. developers whining because oems got the base to bring up their hardware is also stupid,whiny,childish.

 

Absolutely. Say you're Symantec or McAfee and due to not having done testing the 8.1 release causes thousands of systems to suddenly stop working.  Microsoft must go out of their way to make sure things like that won't happen, or it will undermine the Windows ecosystem.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

The point is so that OEMs can test it with the hardware they are planning to sell to make sure it works.  That's what RTM is for.  It's not for developers and it doesn't mean that the softare is complete.  Updates can still be made.  The software will be done on October 18th, when it gets released.  RTM doesn't mean it is done, it means it is ready for manufaturers to test it and work out the kinks with the hardware integration.  I'm not sure how you don't understand this distinction.

Rubbish...

 

Do you think Best Buy will be flashing Windows 8 images into laptops on display on release date? Hell no. It takes time for the updated machines to hit the stores. RTM is so OEMs can have time to build that stock and to ship it to retailers... Unless you think MS doesn't plan on OEMs actually installing this until late Oct and it getting into stores well into January... No, this is RTM now to be sure it hits retail in Oct for the holiday season.

 

Anything MS "fixes" at this point will be done via day 1 Windows Update patches. No reason whatsoever to delay this for developers except that MS is becoming more and more out of touch with reality daily.

[techbeck]

what part of windows 8.1 not being finished dont you understand. there is nothing to release. the rtm build is not complete,therefore theres nothing to test applications with. stop arguing about it.

 

Listen...open your eyes.  I said, and for the last time, WHEN (keyword here) 8.1 is finished, it should be released to the devs FIRST.  They are not going to finalize 8.1 and then release it on the same day.  And the SDK better be ready to go before everyone gets 8.1 as well so the DEVs have time to address app issues.  To make DEVs wait until the same day as everyone  else, and then the users wait days after for apps to be fixed, is stupid as hell and NOT what MS said it out for...supporting developers.

 

Really not hard to understand and if you were not always so intent on defending MS in everything they do, you would understand.

[Joe User]

what part of windows 8.1 not being finished dont you understand. there is nothing to release. the rtm build is not complete,therefore theres nothing to test applications with. stop arguing about it.

 

The 8.1 RTM build is finished. There will be patches from QFE, there will be updates to the core 'metro' apps, but the RTM build is finished and will not be changed anytime soon.

[FloatingFatMan]

Listen...open your eyes.  I said, and for the last time, WHEN (keyword here) 8.1 is finished, it should be released to the devs FIRST.  They are not going to finalize 8.1 and then release it on the same day.  And the SDK better be ready to go before everyone gets 8.1 as well so the DEVs have time to address app issues.  To make DEVs wait until the same day as everyone  else, and then the users wait days after for apps to be fixed, is stupid as hell and NOT what MS said it out for...supporting developers.

 

Really not hard to understand and if you were not always so intent on defending MS in everything they do, you would understand.

 

The non-programmers are never going to get it, Tech.  It's like arguing with a politician.. Excuse after excuse after excuse, and never any sense.

[Active.]

In the past, the release to manufacturing (RTM) milestone traditionally meant that the software was ready for broader customer use. However, it?s clear that times have changed, with shifts to greater mobility and touch as well as the blurring of work and personal lives. As such, we?ve had to evolve the way we develop and the time in which we deliver to meet customers with the experience they need, want and expect. 

Makes sense that "shifts to greater mobility and touch as well as the blurring of work and personal lives" would redefine what RTM means...  :laugh:

[techbeck]

The non-programmers are never going to get it, Tech.  It's like arguing with a politician.. Excuse after excuse after excuse, and never any sense.

 

Nothing to do with being a programmer.  I am not a programmer but I understand what is going on and what the DEVs want and why they want it. 

[+devHead Subscriber²]

"In the past, the release to manufacturing (RTM) milestone traditionally meant that the software was ready for broader customer use. However, it's clear that times have changed."

 

What kind of reasoning is this on Microsoft's part?  Times have changed?  No, they haven't, Microsoft has changed.  They now consider IT Pros and Developers as in the same pot as 'broad customers'.  That's what I find ridiculous.  This has nothing to do with changing times.  I wish they would just fess up and explain why they really aren't releasing it to Technet and MSDN subscribers.  The same foolishness when they decided not to use the Metro term when Windows 8 went final.

[Growled Member]

All Microsoft is doing is hurting themselves. Now it will well after launch before developers can finish testing and releasing new code. 

[+LogicalApex MVC]

All Microsoft is doing is hurting themselves. Now it will well after launch before developers can finish testing and releasing new code. 

Consumers will berate developers for having buggy apps when they update and developer interest in the MS ecosystem will continue its decline.

 

I really wish I could understand what they are thinking in Redmond. First they kill TechNet subs which are basically the primary advocate for adoption of more MS technology in the enterprise (as IT pros can make the case to their companies why they need to upgrade or buy another MS solution) and now they are attacking MSDN. If this is a start of a new trend, MSDN gets no early access for developers, I just can't see how MS' ecosystem will do anything buy start to severely strangle itself until it dies out.

 

The reason it is absolutely nuts to me is that the new generation of developers care heavily about iOS and Android, for obvious reasons. MS has their stable of developers mainly due to enterprise development needs that have spent gobs of money investing in MS solutions. With MS's latest moves they are burning the last camp of supporters they have.

 

 

Does anybody really think MS is in a position to have any less developer interest for their platform?

 

In long story, couldn't agree with you more +Growled :)

[+Warwagon MVC]

Consumers will berate developers for having buggy apps when they update and developer interest in the MS ecosystem will continue its decline.

 

I really wish I could understand what they are thinking in Redmond. First they kill TechNet subs which are basically the primary advocate for adoption of more MS technology in the enterprise (as IT pros can make the case to their companies why they need to upgrade or buy another MS solution) and now they are attacking MSDN.

 

I never under stood why they killed Technet either, it was a great way for Pirates to actually pay them money!

[spaceelf]

I understand both sides of the argument but I don't see how waiting a couple months really kills anything.

 

8.1 is clearly done.  The drivers that should be released with it to truly show how devices will perform I wouldn't bank on it.

 

If it was a service pack, you know, whatever, but with a new WDDM among other things theres plenty of external testing to do as well.

[Noir Angel]

That external testing includes software applications, making it available to OEM only is about one thing, and one thing only...

 

 

KERCHING!