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Intel Reverts Plans, Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir

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#16 yowanvista

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 03:04

It's Canonical's fault, they should just have gone with Wayland instead of creating their nonstandard display server. More fragmentation ahead, I always wonder why those Linux developers can't work towards a common goal.


#17 Anibal P

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 03:28

Why would you even use Ubuntu? So many superior alternatives out here for you to use, it's becoming like MS was during the XP days, bloated arrogant and complacent all at the same time



#18 Athernar

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 03:32

It's Canonical's fault, they should just have gone with Wayland instead of creating their nonstandard display server. More fragmentation ahead, I always wonder why those Linux developers can't work towards a common goal.

 

To be fair to "those Linux developers", it's more a case of Canonical having a severe case of Not-Invented-Here syndrome than the usual political forking.



#19 +SharpGreen

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 03:55

Nobody's forcing you not to use Mir, we're just calling out the justifications around it existing as stupid (Mir exists solely so Canonical can control it and tie Mir apps to their platform, it has no benefits over Wayland and in fact takes code from Wayland)

Ha I wasn't referring to Mir in my rant. What code did Mir take from Wayland? Also if Mir was completely about control, I don't think they would care as much about getting others to work with them or even use it.

 

That's the thing, you are being told what to use as the option to use the X fallback is being removed in favor of something that's going to get very little support from third parties, never mind being rushed into an LTS build which will cause all sorts of problems. This is supposed to be the "Linux poster child" of how easy it's supposed to be used, instead they're undermining that effort by delivering a product that's getting zero support from hardware manufacturers and other developers and is currently a buggy mess.. case in point, Steam only officially supports Ubuntu. How's that going to pan out when 14.04 rolls around and you're suddenly forced to use the significantly slower open source drivers? Will you be able to add different desktop environments? How will this work with remote X clients?

Wayland's driver situation isn't any better. If you want to use it, you still have to use the terrible open source drivers. So what's your point? Also practically all of the issues as far as legacy X apps that Mir has (or will have) will be shared by Wayland...yet people only seem to be using that issue to bash Mir.

 

 Also "officially supported" doesn't really mean much as Steam works well on other "not-Ubuntu" distros.



#20 The_Decryptor

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 03:57

Ha I wasn't referring to Mir in my rant. What code did Mir take from Wayland? Also if Mir was completely about control, I don't think they would care as much about getting others to work with them or even use it.
...


XMir is based on XWayland, I'm not saying they're bad for forking it, I'm saying the reasons behind the fork is what's bad.

Canonical is trying to get other people to support Mir, but nobody is (No toolkit guys want Mir, no driver guys want Mir, etc.) The entire Linux graphics stack is moving towards Wayland.

Edit: Hell, even the Ubuntu based distros don't want Mir, Xubuntu is moving towards Wayland as well.

#21 Max Norris

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:17

Also "officially supported" doesn't really mean much as Steam works well on other "not-Ubuntu" distros.

Yes, we know that, but explain that to the random newbie who wants to try gaming on Linux and the first thing they're told is "sorry, you either need to downgrade to an older version of the distro or switch to an unsupported distro and hope it works with it." After Googling around for a new distro, how to get Steam to work with it if it does, etc etc.. chances are they're going to be questioning why they thought it was a good idea to try it in the first place. Again, this is commonly billed as the go-to distro for first-timers, never mind it's not only going to have serious problem with Steam, but Linux/Wine gaming in general, or hell anything that requires on GPU performance, never mind things suddenly not working because they upgraded to the latest version. Everybody else is going to go with Wayland.. why add yet another unnecessary option into the mix, especially one that really isn't helping anybody in the first place? Don't get me wrong, I used to like Ubuntu in general, hell even Unity has kinda-sorta grown on me (like it better than Gnome 3 anyway), but this.. this is just a bad move with no benefits.

As for the rest, Decryptor says it above better than I can. What's the point?

#22 COKid

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:39

It's Canonical's fault, they should just have gone with Wayland instead of creating their nonstandard display server. More fragmentation ahead, I always wonder why those Linux developers can't work towards a common goal.

 

Ubuntu is but one project. There are many others, some of which are very coordinated towards common goals.



#23 ViperAFK

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:04

XMir is based on XWayland, I'm not saying they're bad for forking it, I'm saying the reasons behind the fork is what's bad.

Canonical is trying to get other people to support Mir, but nobody is (No toolkit guys want Mir, no driver guys want Mir, etc.) The entire Linux graphics stack is moving towards Wayland.

Edit: Hell, even the Ubuntu based distros don't want Mir, Xubuntu is moving towards Wayland as well.

Do you mean kubuntu? XFCE has no plans to support either mir or wayland, so xubuntu switching wouldn't really be possible...



#24 The_Decryptor

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:08

Yeah, I was thinking of Kubuntu, Xubuntu can't use Wayland or Mir because of their reliance on an old GTK version.

#25 Growled

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:15

XMir is based on XWayland, I'm not saying they're bad for forking it, I'm saying the reasons behind the fork is what's bad.
 

 

Canonical was always had a nasty habit of using other people's work to achieve their own ends, instead of helping the community at large.



#26 +SharpGreen

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:53

this blog post on the matter by a former dev on the RadeonHD project sums up my thoughts quite nicely >> http://libv.livejournal.com/25325.html



#27 Mindovermaster

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 02:58

Why would you even use Ubuntu? So many superior alternatives out here for you to use, it's becoming like MS was during the XP days, bloated arrogant and complacent all at the same time

 

Aren't all distros, except, say arch, bloated with software?



#28 The_Decryptor

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 04:36

this blog post on the matter by a former dev on the RadeonHD project sums up my thoughts quite nicely >> http://libv.livejournal.com/25325.html


Guy seems quite upset for some reason, comes across in his flawed reasoning (Like complaining that Intel is forcing Canonical to patch the driver, so bugs in the Canonical only patch have to get reported to Canonical, which actually makes perfect sense)

Why should Intel maintain code solely to support one distros changes? Stuff like that makes much more sense in the distro copy (Same reason the GTK and QT guys won't accept the Mir backend, they don't want to maintain somebody else's code they'll never use)

Edit: Never mind that Canonical already patches the hell out of stuff, forcing them to include a small patch to one driver isn't a big deal at all.

#29 ViperAFK

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 12:28

Ha I wasn't referring to Mir in my rant. What code did Mir take from Wayland? Also if Mir was completely about control, I don't think they would care as much about getting others to work with them or even use it.

 

Wayland's driver situation isn't any better. If you want to use it, you still have to use the terrible open source drivers. So what's your point? Also practically all of the issues as far as legacy X apps that Mir has (or will have) will be shared by Wayland...yet people only seem to be using that issue to bash Mir.

 

 Also "officially supported" doesn't really mean much as Steam works well on other "not-Ubuntu" distros.

Not all open source drivers are 'terrible'. For example intel's are excellent, intel has a full team developing their oss linux driver. AMD's open source driver is actually getting quite good too (but only with a very recent graphics stack, in kernel 3.11 and mesa 9.2+ I believe they now have fully working dynamic power management, hugely improved performance with a new shader backend, video acceleration with vdpau. Still not as fast for games as fglrx, but perfectly usable now. A year ago I would have agreed with you that most of the oss drivers aside from intel were bad, but thats starting to be untrue. The oss nvidia drivers are still bad, but thats because nvidia refuses to release any documentation at all for their hardware, unlike amd who releases documentation and even code drops, and intel who actually develop and oss driver themselves).

 

IMO proprietary drivers in linux are nothing but trouble, even if they do have better performance. They are implemented in very 'hacky' ways since they don't use the existing oss driver infrastructure. I was much happier using linux after switching to intel graphics, the drivers always just 'work' out of the box and that's awesome :)

 

And regarding 'what code did mir take from wayland'. Regarding straight code, afaik xmir is a fork of xwayland. Mir itself was written from scratch. But mir would not be able to work at all if not for the work of many upstream xorg, wayland, and mesa developers. Much infastructure changes needed to happen with the linux graphics stack to make wayland or mir possible. For example: Much work has been done over the years to move as many things out of X as possible (moving most of the driver functionality into the kernel, making xorg more modular; KMS/DRI2 etc...), EGL support in the OSS drivers and various other things. Canonical worked on none of these things. Wayland was a collaborative effort from the upstream developers of various projects, even if they weren't all working on wayland directly. This is why wayland has been in development for so long, much of the work needed to be done outside of wayland. Because mir swooped in at a later date when much of this work was already done, canonical is seen as 'being faster' which is not really true.

 

And the reasoning behind mir is dubious to begin with, none of the technical arguments they originally listed held any water. Its also dubious how mir came to be: Canonical cited these aforementioned 'technical reasons', all of which were quite weak, and some basically FUD against wayland (and canonical even took down this page at a later date), and prior to developing mir in secret did canonical ever go to any upstream devs about their concerns? no. Did they ever contribute any code to wayland? no. They just developed mir in secret based on some bull**** reasons.

 

Is their anything technically wrong with mir's code, is it any worse than wayland in that way? Probably not, what people have a problem with was how canonical went about creating and developing mir, based on poor reasoning, and when there was already a good X alternative in the works. People fear their poor decision will cause unneeded fragmentation. This doesn't mean there's anything wrong with mir from a technical perspective (well unless you can count their restrictive licensing, GPL3 + a CLA means no outside developers will be interested in contributing to mir).



#30 ViperAFK

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 12:44

Guy seems quite upset for some reason, comes across in his flawed reasoning (Like complaining that Intel is forcing Canonical to patch the driver, so bugs in the Canonical only patch have to get reported to Canonical, which actually makes perfect sense)

Why should Intel maintain code solely to support one distros changes? Stuff like that makes much more sense in the distro copy (Same reason the GTK and QT guys won't accept the Mir backend, they don't want to maintain somebody else's code they'll never use)

Edit: Never mind that Canonical already patches the hell out of stuff, forcing them to include a small patch to one driver isn't a big deal at all.

Agreed, this decision seemed par for the course for an upstream project, most wouldn't want to accept distro-specific patches.