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Posted

There's a grey area to the law usually though. From what i understand of the story the store owner was not harmed (i could be wrong) and the guy was fleeing so his actions were definately disproportionate. But let's say the young guy shot the store owner and harm him seriously. Then even if he is fleeing the store owner could say he feared for his life and reacted without thinking about what he was doing and the jury would probably judge him not guilty.

 

 

Technically, it's still against the law to shoot a fleeing felon, but if you were injured by him, it's probably unlikely to go to court, or if it does, result in an acquittal. 

 

 

Though in canada the store owner would still have to face justice for illegal use of a firearm as you can't actually have an armed firearm inside your store. That's probably why armed robbery pretty much never ends in someone getting killed around where i live. Can't even remember tha last time someone was killed in an armed robbery here (metropolitan area of 765 706 heads). Couple of years ago i was working as a parking attendant at night. I was depositing the money at 2AM and usually there was between 200 ro 300$ to deposit. I was not armed and did not fear for my life at all.

 
A concept most American's just don't get.  When citizens are armed, so will the criminals be, with bigger guns. Violence breeds violence until you no longer feel safe to walk down the street.

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Posted

So we should just kill them instead of doing what we europeans do best and you Americans don't do, rehabilitate and release as productive civilized citizens.

You continue to totally ignore that there are fundamental bulk differences between violent criminals in the US and what passes for them in Europe. Ours are far more aggressive and mostly sociopaths - meaning they zero remorse or empathy for others. You cannot fix sociopathy. Reforming them has been tried, many times, and it is still tried, but even with it most are set in their ways and return to them and their gangs ASAP. Many of these criminals started as 10 year olds and are VERY hardened. It's a very tough problem.

The only responsible move is to not just let them go if go if they flee as it puts many other innocents at risk. If there is no cop there to do it, then the citizenry has the option to do so. Those who can, do. Those who cannot, don't.

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Posted

I feel sorry for you guys, that you should have to live in such a place.

 

Perhaps you should worry less about other people's problems and fix your own.

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Posted

You continue to totally ignore that there are fundamental bulk differences between violent criminals in the US and what passes for them in Europe. Ours are far more aggressive and mostly sociopaths - meaning they zero remorse or empathy for others. You cannot fix sociopathy. Reforming them has been tried, many times, and it is still tried, but even with it most are set in their ways and return to them and their gangs ASAP. Many of CV these criminals started as 10 year olds and are VERY hardened. It's a very tough problem.
The only responsible move is to not just let them go if go if they flee as it puts many other innocents at risk. If there is no cop there to do it, then the citizenry has the option to do so. Those who can, do. Those who cannot, don't.


Last time someone tried to say that and provided an example, I provided a counter example proving how wrong that claim is.

They are only worse criminals because you let them be and more importantly because you make the that way, that's what happens with a broken correctional system that is turned into a punishment system and a society full of weapons.

Also WHAT did that have to to with my reply to a crime committed in the UK.

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Posted

If our corrections system "makes" them that way then why are so many of the worst crimes committed by kids and first serious offenders? They haven't even been there yet. Even if they did minor crimes most all get supervised probation, often with counseling. That's hardly throwing them to the wolves as you suggested.

Generally speaking, in the realm no of antisocial personality disorders sociopaths are more influenced by environment than psychopaths which have more of a "born" path. Either way they make up well over half our male prison population and a third of the females, and were in deep trouble long before the prison system ever touched them.

Other troubled souls are the schizophrenics and wide ranging bipolars that do so many spree killings. They often don't present until their late teens to late twenties, and as we've seen that first major break can be a doozie.

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Posted

So why does the USA have so many people with these disorders? It's completely disproportionate to the rest of the Western nations.

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Posted

That is a major field of study, everywhere, especially using brain imagery. Several anomalies have been found to be disproportionately present including reduced limbic system activation. Not always a problem, but with negative environmental factors it could be. Some anomalies are tied to alcohol use during pregnancy, genetics, physical trauma, drug and physical abuse and other environmental factors. Witches brew.

What makes it a big problem here is the de-emphasis of our inpatient mental health system in the 70's and 80's due to pressure by civil libertarians and the unwillingness to spend the money to upgrade or replace the facilities. The cauldron is now boiling over.

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Posted

If our corrections system "makes" them that way then why are so many of the worst crimes committed by kids and first serious offenders? .


They're called parents

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Posted

And schools, as in without one whit of discipline or a curriculum worth using. Carnegie-Mellon also surveyed a load of K-12 teachers ~25 years ago and found about 30% were functionally illiterate. I don't think its improved.

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Posted

The only responsible move is to not just let them go if go if they flee as it puts many other innocents at risk. If there is no cop there to do it, then the citizenry has the option to do so. Those who can, do. Those who cannot, don't.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think you're any better than they are. Your willingness to kill over so little makes it hard for me to believe in fact that you're anything but the same side of a troubling coin, perhaps even worse as most robbers don't usually kill people unless they absolutely have to.

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Posted

maybe not a threat to the store owner but possibly a threat to someone else.  He's already indicated he would be willing to point a weapon at someone to get what he wants.

 

 

You can't shoot someone just because they might be a threat to someone else.

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Posted

Yes you can, and legally in most states. The law accepts possible / probable future bad acts by the perp.

Quite frankly, I don't think you're any better than they are. Your willingness to kill over so little makes it hard for me to believe in fact that you're anything but the same side of a troubling coin, perhaps even worse as most robbers don't usually kill people unless they absolutely have to.

Not better just willing. Lots of citizens arrests are made here and VERY few result in shots fired, so your bloodlust theory is just uninformed speculation.

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Posted

You can't shoot someone just because they might be a threat to someone else.

 

In this case, he hadn't left the scene of the crime so he was still a potential danger to the victim.

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Posted

In this case, he hadn't left the scene of the crime so he was still a potential danger to the victim.

 

That's because the victim shot him dead as he was trying to leave.

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Posted

He'll know better next time than try to leave the scene of a crime. ;)

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