Outrage in France after jeweler charged for killing thief


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TBH, I don't think American's and Europeans in general will see ever eye to eye on this issue.  As much as we are similar, it's apparent that for some things, our cultures are wildly different.

 

You'd be surprised at the people on both sides that would agree on this issue. Just not many of them frequent this board.

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Its not that we love to hurt people, I'd much rather the idiot stop. It's also that taking a low percentage wounding shot is risker to others. Sometimes that results in no shot.

 

Yes, it's so reasonable that we should just be killing any criminals, even if it is only for theft. You Americans and your love for materialism...

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Yes, it's so reasonable that we should just be killing any criminals, even if it is only for theft. You Americans and your love for materialism...

If you can't see the difference between a simple theft and armed robbery then there's no point wasting anymore time trying to explain it.  However instead of turning this into another America bash fest for our "love of materialism" you neglect one crucial detail.  This was a French citizen who apparently had the same "love of materialism" that appears to curse our American culture.  So apparently we aren't all that different.  I can only say you can't say how you'd react unless you had a gun in your face like this shop owner did.

 

It's easy to say how you can react from the safety of a computer keyboard but when you are in the heat of the moment people amazingly don't seem to make "rational" decisions.

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Yes, only an American would consider it reasonable to take a person's life because of property.

The problem is that this usually leads to other things.  Someone will end up getting hurt sooner or later.

 

oh NO!! he's been in trouble as a juvenile. he definitely deserved to be shot down as a dog, you're absolutely right.

 

trouble as a juvenile obviously means he was out raping old ladies, naturally.

 

This guy got hit with a brick, stabbed, and robbed of a game by teenagers, and that was in London.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/sep/21/man-stabbed-robbed-grand-theft-auto-5

 

I'm sure that's the first bad thing they've probably ever done, right?

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The problem is that this usually leads to other things.  Someone will end up getting hurt sooner or later.

 

 

This guy got hit with a brick, stabbed, and robbed of a game by teenagers, and that was in London.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/sep/21/man-stabbed-robbed-grand-theft-auto-5

 

I'm sure that's the first bad thing they've probably ever done, right?

 

You found that story relevant to bring it up why not tell us? Have they done anything bad before?

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The problem is that this usually leads to other things. Someone will end up getting hurt sooner or later.

This guy got hit with a brick, stabbed, and robbed of a game by teenagers, and that was in London.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/sep/21/man-stabbed-robbed-grand-theft-auto-5

I'm sure that's the first bad thing they've probably ever done, right?

Neither of us know that firstly, and secondly what does that have to do with this ?

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And again, that's ridiculous. Unfortunately American culture places very little value on human lives.

You Europeans have no value of life. The Castle doctrine states that you have a right to defend yourself in your own home using any force necessary. If you value the life of a criminal more than that of a victim, then you are a complete moron.

 

Should I bring into light the Crusades, persecution of the Jews [and no not just Hitler], rape and pillage of villages during feudal days. Great Britain taking everything within sight, the Zulu wars.

 

And yet everybody in Europe loves saying the US is a bunch of war mongers, but they choose to ignore their own bloody past to make themselves seem like they are "higher" on the moral ground.

 

Now everybody there is pacifist. Let the murderer kill somebody in their own home, the police will bring him to justice, so whatever you do don't defend yourself, let all your stuff be stolen, and your life taken to be "morally superior" than the criminal.

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You Europeans have no value of life. The Castle doctrine states that you have a right to defend yourself in your own home using any force necessary. If you value the life of a criminal more than that of a victim, then you are a complete moron.

 

Various European laws allow us to defend ourselves up to and including the use of lethal force, where appropriate.

 

It does not allow us to shoot and kill a fleeing criminal in the back.  Anyone that would do -that-, is the one who doesn't value human life.

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Various European laws allow us to defend ourselves up to and including the use of lethal force, where appropriate.

 

It does not allow us to shoot and kill a fleeing criminal in the back.  Anyone that would do -that-, is the one who doesn't value human life.

Lets say for example the thief shoots the guy in the store, and runs out, and the story owner shoots the thief in the back and kills him as he is running away [thief shot store owner], is that appropriate force if he is fleeing?

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Lets say for example the thief shoots the guy in the store, and runs out, and the story owner shoots the thief in the back and kills him as he is running away [thief shot store owner], is that appropriate force if he is fleeing?

 

Yes it would probably be appropriate anyway in canada it would probably be and the law is similar to a lot of countries in europe including France.

 

The law, anyway in canada and from what i know it's very similar to the France version of it, doesn't specify that you can't shot someone who is fleeing. It just says that you can use reasonable force to defend yourself. Shooting someone who is fleeing and did not harm you, save for the property stolen, would certainly not be considered a reasonable force.

 

If the guy actually did shot you then it is a different matter completely.

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Lets say for example the thief shoots the guy in the store, and runs out, and the story owner shoots the thief in the back and kills him as he is running away [thief shot store owner], is that appropriate force if he is fleeing?

 

No. He's fleeing.  Self defence laws allow you to defend yourself from immediate threat, and that's IT.  It doesn't allow you to kill a fleeing attacker. That's called murder, even if he attacked you.  You can shoot him whilst he's attacking you, but not when he's no longer a threat.

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No. He's fleeing.  Self defence laws allow you to defend yourself from immediate threat, and that's IT.  It doesn't allow you to kill a fleeing attacker. That's called murder, even if he attacked you.  You can shoot him whilst he's attacking you, but not when he's no longer a threat.

 

There's a grey area to the law usually though. From what i understand of the story the store owner was not harmed (i could be wrong) and the guy was fleeing so his actions were definately disproportionate. But let's say the young guy shot the store owner and harm him seriously. Then even if he is fleeing the store owner could say he feared for his life and reacted without thinking about what he was doing and the jury would probably judge him not guilty.

 

Though in canada the store owner would still have to face justice for illegal use of a firearm as you can't actually have an armed firearm inside your store. That's probably why armed robbery pretty much never ends in someone getting killed around where i live. Can't even remember tha last time someone was killed in an armed robbery here (metropolitan area of 765 706 heads). Couple of years ago i was working as a parking attendant at night. I was depositing the money at 2AM and usually there was between 200 ro 300$ to deposit. I was not armed and did not fear for my life at all.

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You Europeans have no value of life.

Most Europeans countries allow for the use of deadly force when defending one's life, much like the US. However, what isn't tolerated is the killing of somebody fleeing a crime scene. That means that Europeans actually value like more than Americans.

 

Should I bring into light the Crusades, persecution of the Jews [and no not just Hitler], rape and pillage of villages during feudal days. Great Britain taking everything within sight, the Zulu wars.

 

And yet everybody in Europe loves saying the US is a bunch of war mongers, but they choose to ignore their own bloody past to make themselves seem like they are "higher" on the moral ground.

The difference is that for most European countries those crimes are in the past and have long since been apologised for. The United States, on the other hand, hasn't apologised for the use of nuclear weapons against civilians in Japan, for supporting coups in Iran, Guatemala, Brazil or Argentina (amongst many others), for the chemical weapons used in Vietnam or Iraq, for the targeting of civilians in drone strikes, for undermining democracy in Palestine and Egypt, for the torture of prisoners, etc. In fact the US keeps racking up the war crimes.

 

So yes, Europe does hold the moral high ground. In fact the EU received the Nobel Peace Prize in 2012, though the award doesn't have as much credibility since it was awarded to Obama in 2009. But that doesn't mean the EU is faultless, as both France and the UK supported an attack on the Assad regime without UN support. And many European countries have opposed diplomatic efforts by Palestine and ignored the war crimes being committed by Israel.

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Most Europeans countries allow for the use of deadly force when defending one's life, much like the US. However, what isn't tolerated is the killing of somebody fleeing a crime scene. That means that Europeans actually value like more than Americans.

You're mixing two separate things, self defense and citizens arrest. Castle & SYG cover the former and the Fleeing Felon Rule is part of the latter (citizens arrest.)

2 different standards, with CA at least partly intended to help prevent subsequent violent acts by the perp who has proven himself a danger to society.

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Most Europeans countries allow for the use of deadly force when defending one's life, much like the US. However, what isn't tolerated is the killing of somebody fleeing a crime scene. That means that Europeans actually value like more than Americans.

 

 

The difference is that for most European countries those crimes are in the past and have long since been apologised for. The United States, on the other hand, hasn't apologised for the use of nuclear weapons against civilians in Japan, for supporting coups in Iran, Guatemala, Brazil or Argentina (amongst many others), for the chemical weapons used in Vietnam or Iraq, for the targeting of civilians in drone strikes, for undermining democracy in Palestine and Egypt, for the torture of prisoners, etc. In fact the US keeps racking up the war crimes.

 

So yes, Europe does hold the moral high ground. In fact the EU received the Nobel Peace Prize in 2012, though the award doesn't have as much credibility since it was awarded to Obama in 2009. But that doesn't mean the EU is faultless, as both France and the UK supported an attack on the Assad regime without UN support. And many European countries have opposed diplomatic efforts by Palestine and ignored the war crimes being committed by Israel.

How many hundreds of years did that take ?

Oh and if we want to talk about Palestine.

 

I do agree with you on the Nobel Peace prize though.

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You found that story relevant to bring it up why not tell us? Have they done anything bad before?

I've never committed armed robbery.  I have stolen gum before when I was a little and my dad beat my ass because of it.

 

I don't steal stuff and don't mess with other peoples' property. 

 

I found it relevant to bring up because I'm sure it's not their first crime, and if it is, then it shows what they're willing to do in the future. 

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There are other aspects to the European / American attitude difference.

The US was born of rebellion against a foreign dominance and was set up as a collection of individuals and strong decentralized state govts. Most of Europe has a long history of strong centralized govts starting with monarchies and lean towards strong central govts. and a current trend to make it even bigger.

Though the US has a similar number of police officers per 100k people to Europe as a whole, about 250/100,000, our population density is far lower; about 35 per sq/km vs 116 per sq/km for Europe as a whole (and much more in some locales.) This spreads police out rather thinly and gives rise to the saying "they can't be everywhere" and situations where the police arrive too late to be a factor save for cleaning up the mess.

Also, for much of US history a county or region might only have a Sheriff with a few deputies, and when more were needed the Sheriff would deputize a posse - citizen police - from the populace. From this and Common Law arose Citizens Arrest and its wide use. Not to mention that when the Constitution speaks of the "Militia" it does not necessarily mean a formal paramilitary unit but can also refer to all able bodied adults.

One might say "well, then let rural folks arm & protect themselves if necessary and apply a different standard to cities." Nope - our 14th Amendment disallows such a bifurcated distribution of Constitutional rights, and most all criminal & self defense laws are in the jurisdiction of the states - and they have spoken. Emphatically, and on a bipartisan basis.

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You Europeans have no value of life. The Castle doctrine states that you have a right to defend yourself in your own home using any force necessary. If you value the life of a criminal more than that of a victim, then you are a complete moron.

 

Should I bring into light the Crusades, persecution of the Jews [and no not just Hitler], rape and pillage of villages during feudal days. Great Britain taking everything within sight, the Zulu wars.

 

And yet everybody in Europe loves saying the US is a bunch of war mongers, but they choose to ignore their own bloody past to make themselves seem like they are "higher" on the moral ground.

 

Now everybody there is pacifist. Let the murderer kill somebody in their own home, the police will bring him to justice, so whatever you do don't defend yourself, let all your stuff be stolen, and your life taken to be "morally superior" than the criminal.

 

 

You know you Americans where European during the Crusades

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Lets say for example the thief shoots the guy in the store, and runs out, and the story owner shoots the thief in the back and kills him as he is running away [thief shot store owner], is that appropriate force if he is fleeing?

 

Self defense stops being self defense when you're no longer defending yourself or another person in immediate danger. shooting a fleeing person in the back is not right no mater what way you try to twist it. Trying to defend it only paints you as someone who can't wait for this to happen so you can shoot someone. 

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I've never committed armed robbery.  I have stolen gum before when I was a little and my dad beat my ass because of it.

 

I don't steal stuff and don't mess with other peoples' property. 

 

I found it relevant to bring up because I'm sure it's not their first crime, and if it is, then it shows what they're willing to do in the future. 

 

So we should just kill them instead of doing what we europeans do best and you Americans don't do, rehabilitate and release as productive civilized citizens. 

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