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nice city escaping robber voluntary homicide self protection immature

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#106 FlintyV

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 18:36

The problem is that this usually leads to other things.  Someone will end up getting hurt sooner or later.
 

 
This guy got hit with a brick, stabbed, and robbed of a game by teenagers, and that was in London.
http://www.theguardi...nd-theft-auto-5

 

I'm sure that's the first bad thing they've probably ever done, right?

 

You found that story relevant to bring it up why not tell us? Have they done anything bad before?




#107 HawkMan

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 19:37

The problem is that this usually leads to other things. Someone will end up getting hurt sooner or later.


This guy got hit with a brick, stabbed, and robbed of a game by teenagers, and that was in London.
http://www.theguardi...nd-theft-auto-5

I'm sure that's the first bad thing they've probably ever done, right?


Neither of us know that firstly, and secondly what does that have to do with this ?

#108 SpeedyTheSnail

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:15

And again, that's ridiculous. Unfortunately American culture places very little value on human lives.

You Europeans have no value of life. The Castle doctrine states that you have a right to defend yourself in your own home using any force necessary. If you value the life of a criminal more than that of a victim, then you are a complete moron.

 

Should I bring into light the Crusades, persecution of the Jews [and no not just Hitler], rape and pillage of villages during feudal days. Great Britain taking everything within sight, the Zulu wars.

 

And yet everybody in Europe loves saying the US is a bunch of war mongers, but they choose to ignore their own bloody past to make themselves seem like they are "higher" on the moral ground.

 

Now everybody there is pacifist. Let the murderer kill somebody in their own home, the police will bring him to justice, so whatever you do don't defend yourself, let all your stuff be stolen, and your life taken to be "morally superior" than the criminal.



#109 FloatingFatMan

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:19

You Europeans have no value of life. The Castle doctrine states that you have a right to defend yourself in your own home using any force necessary. If you value the life of a criminal more than that of a victim, then you are a complete moron.

 

Various European laws allow us to defend ourselves up to and including the use of lethal force, where appropriate.

 

It does not allow us to shoot and kill a fleeing criminal in the back.  Anyone that would do -that-, is the one who doesn't value human life.



#110 SpeedyTheSnail

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:28

Various European laws allow us to defend ourselves up to and including the use of lethal force, where appropriate.

 

It does not allow us to shoot and kill a fleeing criminal in the back.  Anyone that would do -that-, is the one who doesn't value human life.

Lets say for example the thief shoots the guy in the store, and runs out, and the story owner shoots the thief in the back and kills him as he is running away [thief shot store owner], is that appropriate force if he is fleeing?



#111 Ravensky

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:37

People that steel and rob others deserve what they get when they are caught...Maybe this will make others think twice before they do the same...



#112 LaP

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:43

Lets say for example the thief shoots the guy in the store, and runs out, and the story owner shoots the thief in the back and kills him as he is running away [thief shot store owner], is that appropriate force if he is fleeing?

 

Yes it would probably be appropriate anyway in canada it would probably be and the law is similar to a lot of countries in europe including France.

 

The law, anyway in canada and from what i know it's very similar to the France version of it, doesn't specify that you can't shot someone who is fleeing. It just says that you can use reasonable force to defend yourself. Shooting someone who is fleeing and did not harm you, save for the property stolen, would certainly not be considered a reasonable force.

 

If the guy actually did shot you then it is a different matter completely.



#113 FloatingFatMan

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:55

Lets say for example the thief shoots the guy in the store, and runs out, and the story owner shoots the thief in the back and kills him as he is running away [thief shot store owner], is that appropriate force if he is fleeing?

 

No. He's fleeing.  Self defence laws allow you to defend yourself from immediate threat, and that's IT.  It doesn't allow you to kill a fleeing attacker. That's called murder, even if he attacked you.  You can shoot him whilst he's attacking you, but not when he's no longer a threat.



#114 LaP

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 21:17

No. He's fleeing.  Self defence laws allow you to defend yourself from immediate threat, and that's IT.  It doesn't allow you to kill a fleeing attacker. That's called murder, even if he attacked you.  You can shoot him whilst he's attacking you, but not when he's no longer a threat.

 

There's a grey area to the law usually though. From what i understand of the story the store owner was not harmed (i could be wrong) and the guy was fleeing so his actions were definately disproportionate. But let's say the young guy shot the store owner and harm him seriously. Then even if he is fleeing the store owner could say he feared for his life and reacted without thinking about what he was doing and the jury would probably judge him not guilty.

 

Though in canada the store owner would still have to face justice for illegal use of a firearm as you can't actually have an armed firearm inside your store. That's probably why armed robbery pretty much never ends in someone getting killed around where i live. Can't even remember tha last time someone was killed in an armed robbery here (metropolitan area of 765 706 heads). Couple of years ago i was working as a parking attendant at night. I was depositing the money at 2AM and usually there was between 200 ro 300$ to deposit. I was not armed and did not fear for my life at all.



#115 theyarecomingforyou

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 21:21

You Europeans have no value of life.

Most Europeans countries allow for the use of deadly force when defending one's life, much like the US. However, what isn't tolerated is the killing of somebody fleeing a crime scene. That means that Europeans actually value like more than Americans.

 

Should I bring into light the Crusades, persecution of the Jews [and no not just Hitler], rape and pillage of villages during feudal days. Great Britain taking everything within sight, the Zulu wars.

 

And yet everybody in Europe loves saying the US is a bunch of war mongers, but they choose to ignore their own bloody past to make themselves seem like they are "higher" on the moral ground.

The difference is that for most European countries those crimes are in the past and have long since been apologised for. The United States, on the other hand, hasn't apologised for the use of nuclear weapons against civilians in Japan, for supporting coups in Iran, Guatemala, Brazil or Argentina (amongst many others), for the chemical weapons used in Vietnam or Iraq, for the targeting of civilians in drone strikes, for undermining democracy in Palestine and Egypt, for the torture of prisoners, etc. In fact the US keeps racking up the war crimes.

 

So yes, Europe does hold the moral high ground. In fact the EU received the Nobel Peace Prize in 2012, though the award doesn't have as much credibility since it was awarded to Obama in 2009. But that doesn't mean the EU is faultless, as both France and the UK supported an attack on the Assad regime without UN support. And many European countries have opposed diplomatic efforts by Palestine and ignored the war crimes being committed by Israel.



#116 DocM

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 21:22

Most Europeans countries allow for the use of deadly force when defending one's life, much like the US. However, what isn't tolerated is the killing of somebody fleeing a crime scene. That means that Europeans actually value like more than Americans.

You're mixing two separate things, self defense and citizens arrest. Castle & SYG cover the former and the Fleeing Felon Rule is part of the latter (citizens arrest.)

2 different standards, with CA at least partly intended to help prevent subsequent violent acts by the perp who has proven himself a danger to society.

#117 SpeedyTheSnail

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 00:17

Most Europeans countries allow for the use of deadly force when defending one's life, much like the US. However, what isn't tolerated is the killing of somebody fleeing a crime scene. That means that Europeans actually value like more than Americans.

 

 

The difference is that for most European countries those crimes are in the past and have long since been apologised for. The United States, on the other hand, hasn't apologised for the use of nuclear weapons against civilians in Japan, for supporting coups in Iran, Guatemala, Brazil or Argentina (amongst many others), for the chemical weapons used in Vietnam or Iraq, for the targeting of civilians in drone strikes, for undermining democracy in Palestine and Egypt, for the torture of prisoners, etc. In fact the US keeps racking up the war crimes.

 

So yes, Europe does hold the moral high ground. In fact the EU received the Nobel Peace Prize in 2012, though the award doesn't have as much credibility since it was awarded to Obama in 2009. But that doesn't mean the EU is faultless, as both France and the UK supported an attack on the Assad regime without UN support. And many European countries have opposed diplomatic efforts by Palestine and ignored the war crimes being committed by Israel.

How many hundreds of years did that take ?

Oh and if we want to talk about Palestine.

 

I do agree with you on the Nobel Peace prize though.



#118 Lord Method Man

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 00:21

This guy got hit with a brick, stabbed, and robbed of a game by teenagers, and that was in London.
http://www.theguardi...nd-theft-auto-5

 

 

Oh and Paul Allen. I killed Paul Allen with an axe. In the face.



#119 theyarecomingforyou

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 00:57

Oh and if we want to talk about Palestine.

I'm well aware of the UK's involvement in Palestine and I strongly oppose the British government's position.



#120 farmeunit

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 01:11

You found that story relevant to bring it up why not tell us? Have they done anything bad before?

I've never committed armed robbery.  I have stolen gum before when I was a little and my dad beat my ass because of it.

 

I don't steal stuff and don't mess with other peoples' property. 

 

I found it relevant to bring up because I'm sure it's not their first crime, and if it is, then it shows what they're willing to do in the future.