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#121 Original Poster

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 01:45

 

 

But did he deserve to die in these conditions?"

? yes.......




#122 DocM

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 01:56

There are other aspects to the European / American attitude difference.

The US was born of rebellion against a foreign dominance and was set up as a collection of individuals and strong decentralized state govts. Most of Europe has a long history of strong centralized govts starting with monarchies and lean towards strong central govts. and a current trend to make it even bigger.

Though the US has a similar number of police officers per 100k people to Europe as a whole, about 250/100,000, our population density is far lower; about 35 per sq/km vs 116 per sq/km for Europe as a whole (and much more in some locales.) This spreads police out rather thinly and gives rise to the saying "they can't be everywhere" and situations where the police arrive too late to be a factor save for cleaning up the mess.

Also, for much of US history a county or region might only have a Sheriff with a few deputies, and when more were needed the Sheriff would deputize a posse - citizen police - from the populace. From this and Common Law arose Citizens Arrest and its wide use. Not to mention that when the Constitution speaks of the "Militia" it does not necessarily mean a formal paramilitary unit but can also refer to all able bodied adults.

One might say "well, then let rural folks arm & protect themselves if necessary and apply a different standard to cities." Nope - our 14th Amendment disallows such a bifurcated distribution of Constitutional rights, and most all criminal & self defense laws are in the jurisdiction of the states - and they have spoken. Emphatically, and on a bipartisan basis.

#123 HawkMan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:10

You Europeans have no value of life. The Castle doctrine states that you have a right to defend yourself in your own home using any force necessary. If you value the life of a criminal more than that of a victim, then you are a complete moron.

 

Should I bring into light the Crusades, persecution of the Jews [and no not just Hitler], rape and pillage of villages during feudal days. Great Britain taking everything within sight, the Zulu wars.

 

And yet everybody in Europe loves saying the US is a bunch of war mongers, but they choose to ignore their own bloody past to make themselves seem like they are "higher" on the moral ground.

 

Now everybody there is pacifist. Let the murderer kill somebody in their own home, the police will bring him to justice, so whatever you do don't defend yourself, let all your stuff be stolen, and your life taken to be "morally superior" than the criminal.

 

 

You know you Americans where European during the Crusades



#124 HawkMan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:12

Lets say for example the thief shoots the guy in the store, and runs out, and the story owner shoots the thief in the back and kills him as he is running away [thief shot store owner], is that appropriate force if he is fleeing?

 

Self defense stops being self defense when you're no longer defending yourself or another person in immediate danger. shooting a fleeing person in the back is not right no mater what way you try to twist it. Trying to defend it only paints you as someone who can't wait for this to happen so you can shoot someone. 



#125 HawkMan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:16

I've never committed armed robbery.  I have stolen gum before when I was a little and my dad beat my ass because of it.

 

I don't steal stuff and don't mess with other peoples' property. 

 

I found it relevant to bring up because I'm sure it's not their first crime, and if it is, then it shows what they're willing to do in the future. 

 

So we should just kill them instead of doing what we europeans do best and you Americans don't do, rehabilitate and release as productive civilized citizens. 



#126 FloatingFatMan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:30

There's a grey area to the law usually though. From what i understand of the story the store owner was not harmed (i could be wrong) and the guy was fleeing so his actions were definately disproportionate. But let's say the young guy shot the store owner and harm him seriously. Then even if he is fleeing the store owner could say he feared for his life and reacted without thinking about what he was doing and the jury would probably judge him not guilty.

 

 

Technically, it's still against the law to shoot a fleeing felon, but if you were injured by him, it's probably unlikely to go to court, or if it does, result in an acquittal. 

 

 

Though in canada the store owner would still have to face justice for illegal use of a firearm as you can't actually have an armed firearm inside your store. That's probably why armed robbery pretty much never ends in someone getting killed around where i live. Can't even remember tha last time someone was killed in an armed robbery here (metropolitan area of 765 706 heads). Couple of years ago i was working as a parking attendant at night. I was depositing the money at 2AM and usually there was between 200 ro 300$ to deposit. I was not armed and did not fear for my life at all.

 
A concept most American's just don't get.  When citizens are armed, so will the criminals be, with bigger guns. Violence breeds violence until you no longer feel safe to walk down the street.


#127 DocM

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:40

So we should just kill them instead of doing what we europeans do best and you Americans don't do, rehabilitate and release as productive civilized citizens.

You continue to totally ignore that there are fundamental bulk differences between violent criminals in the US and what passes for them in Europe. Ours are far more aggressive and mostly sociopaths - meaning they zero remorse or empathy for others. You cannot fix sociopathy. Reforming them has been tried, many times, and it is still tried, but even with it most are set in their ways and return to them and their gangs ASAP. Many of these criminals started as 10 year olds and are VERY hardened. It's a very tough problem.

The only responsible move is to not just let them go if go if they flee as it puts many other innocents at risk. If there is no cop there to do it, then the citizenry has the option to do so. Those who can, do. Those who cannot, don't.

#128 FloatingFatMan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:42

I feel sorry for you guys, that you should have to live in such a place.

 

Perhaps you should worry less about other people's problems and fix your own.



#129 HawkMan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:48

You continue to totally ignore that there are fundamental bulk differences between violent criminals in the US and what passes for them in Europe. Ours are far more aggressive and mostly sociopaths - meaning they zero remorse or empathy for others. You cannot fix sociopathy. Reforming them has been tried, many times, and it is still tried, but even with it most are set in their ways and return to them and their gangs ASAP. Many of CV these criminals started as 10 year olds and are VERY hardened. It's a very tough problem.
The only responsible move is to not just let them go if go if they flee as it puts many other innocents at risk. If there is no cop there to do it, then the citizenry has the option to do so. Those who can, do. Those who cannot, don't.


Last time someone tried to say that and provided an example, I provided a counter example proving how wrong that claim is.

They are only worse criminals because you let them be and more importantly because you make the that way, that's what happens with a broken correctional system that is turned into a punishment system and a society full of weapons.

Also WHAT did that have to to with my reply to a crime committed in the UK.

#130 DocM

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 07:58

If our corrections system "makes" them that way then why are so many of the worst crimes committed by kids and first serious offenders? They haven't even been there yet. Even if they did minor crimes most all get supervised probation, often with counseling. That's hardly throwing them to the wolves as you suggested.

Generally speaking, in the realm no of antisocial personality disorders sociopaths are more influenced by environment than psychopaths which have more of a "born" path. Either way they make up well over half our male prison population and a third of the females, and were in deep trouble long before the prison system ever touched them.

Other troubled souls are the schizophrenics and wide ranging bipolars that do so many spree killings. They often don't present until their late teens to late twenties, and as we've seen that first major break can be a doozie.

#131 FloatingFatMan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:49

So why does the USA have so many people with these disorders? It's completely disproportionate to the rest of the Western nations.

#132 DocM

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:10

That is a major field of study, everywhere, especially using brain imagery. Several anomalies have been found to be disproportionately present including reduced limbic system activation. Not always a problem, but with negative environmental factors it could be. Some anomalies are tied to alcohol use during pregnancy, genetics, physical trauma, drug and physical abuse and other environmental factors. Witches brew.

What makes it a big problem here is the de-emphasis of our inpatient mental health system in the 70's and 80's due to pressure by civil libertarians and the unwillingness to spend the money to upgrade or replace the facilities. The cauldron is now boiling over.

#133 HawkMan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:48

If our corrections system "makes" them that way then why are so many of the worst crimes committed by kids and first serious offenders? .


They're called parents

#134 DocM

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 13:15

And schools, as in without one whit of discipline or a curriculum worth using. Carnegie-Mellon also surveyed a load of K-12 teachers ~25 years ago and found about 30% were functionally illiterate. I don't think its improved.

#135 Javik

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 17:37

The only responsible move is to not just let them go if go if they flee as it puts many other innocents at risk. If there is no cop there to do it, then the citizenry has the option to do so. Those who can, do. Those who cannot, don't.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think you're any better than they are. Your willingness to kill over so little makes it hard for me to believe in fact that you're anything but the same side of a troubling coin, perhaps even worse as most robbers don't usually kill people unless they absolutely have to.





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