Valve releases hardware specs for Steam Machine prototype

[Phouchg]

i hope this one have a built-in Ethernet support.

I hope it does not use it to enforce "always on". Oh wait...

[NightScreams]

Phouchg, on 05 Oct 2013 - 10:54, said:Phouchg, on 05 Oct 2013 - 10:54, said:

I hope it does not use it to enforce "always on". Oh wait...

lol yeah which would have instantly killed any console. The 24 hour check caused MS to backpedal, I'd hate to see how a DD only console would have done when announced next to Sony. Maybe in a couple more gens it will be more socially acceptable.

[spenser.d]

But if you look at the XB One and PS4, that's all they are, locked down PCs in a nonstandard case, even the components are also made by traditional PC part manufacturers, not sure why you think there is a difference

 

Ignoring just the fact that the architecture is build in a completely different way than traditional PCs, consoles are also designed with a standard set of parts that will stay the same for a long period of time.  The Steambox is designed with multiple differing parts that can they can be built with, and even those will change likely as fast as they do in the PC world, so developers will have to make the same considerations for Steambox as they do for PC, which they don't have to do for consoles.  On top of that they also have to code their game for Linux if they want it on Steambox.  There's a large difference between consoles and PCs, and not a large difference between Steambox and PCs.

[+Majesticmerc MVC]

There's probably no ATI cards because as previously mentioned ATI doesn't seem to care about breaking compatibility, not fixing problems or not updating GFX drivers for linux.

I wouldn't ever get an ATI card for a linux PC based purely on how crap I've seen them be with drivers.

I think this is the general consensus. ATI graphics drivers for Linux (and hence SteamOS) are horrific, whereas Nvidia's Linux drivers are fairly top notch (or so I've heard) compared to the rest of the competition.

[Athernar]

That's quaint, now read the rest of the post.

 

I did, and it still doesn't change the fact your argument has been crushed.

 

Having the option of a full desktop doesn't harm the ability to offer a UI tailored for controllers, fact.

 

This thing really sounds more and more like a PC and not a console, and that's the market that's going to buy it.  At this point I don't see it actually competing with consoles in any significant manner.  Call it what you want, but typical PC components stuck together in typical PC manner playing PC games hooked up to a TV doesn't make it a console, it makes it a PC hooked up to a TV.  The only difference is that it's limited to games that are available on the SteamOS platform, which kind of makes it gimped compared to hooking up a PC to a TV.  It'll be interesting to see how this evolved anyways.

 

Incorrect, SteamOS will be able to stream games from a Windows PC over LAN.

[MillionVoltss]

Can someone explain why a 450w PSU can be enough for a titan system, Are they just a lot more efficient now , has the need for 1000w PSUs gone ?

[+Majesticmerc MVC]

Can someone explain why a 450w PSU can be enough for a titan system, Are they just a lot more efficient now , has the need for 1000w PSUs gone ?

There was never a need for a 1000W PSU, Nvidia recommends 600W minimum. I'm not a PSU buff by any means, but in general the 600W recommendation is probably for poor quality PSUs. As others in have said, you can set up a powerful PC that consumes less than 400W of power, and it's possible that Valve have a configuration that takes less than 450W with a Titan. Like others have said though, it will need to be a high quality PSU, otherwise it'll die within a few months of use.

[jakem1]

Or more specifically anything that competes with a Microsoft product.

 

It's extremely optimistic to describe this as something that competes with a Microsoft product.  This seems like a classic example of a solution in need of a problem.

[Phouchg]

Can someone explain why a 450w PSU can be enough for a titan system, Are they just a lot more efficient now , has the need for 1000w PSUs gone ?

 

Efficiency of the power supply doesn't directly influence it, apart from thermal considerations. 450W is its power output. Input will be greater than that.

 

It's based on that GK110 is surprisingly conservative despite its immense die size and the amount of transistors. In servers and supercomputers its slightly lower clocked Tesla counterpart even happens to be passively cooled. Granted, they're all being kept at air-conditioned premises, but there's also a physical limit of how much that small of a chip can transfer to a heatsink of any size, so it simply must be quite efficient.

Heat and power that creates it (always equal) is mainly a function of clock speed, amount of transistors clocked at such speed, amount of time spent in the highest power state, and, if we're being picky, quality of the silicon. You'd be hard pressed to find a common application or a game that can even hope to fully stress all components at the same time. For pure benchmarking (say, running Linpack and Furmark together) yes, there's still a need for kilowatt. Also, perhaps in Steambox Boost feature will be disabled to stay within the power envelope instead.

 

That said, I still don't believe 450W is a safe choice. Perhaps there's something that wasn't said, perhaps because it's a prototype as in "we haven't yet fully completed it" and testing will reveal certain issues suspected, but unaccounted for. It's what the testing is for after all. And Valve likes testing a lot (c wut I did thar).

 

Also, I'd like to detract the statement about external power brick. Didn't read the original post careful enough.

[Max Norris]

I did, and it still doesn't change the fact your argument has been crushed. Having the option of a full desktop doesn't harm the ability to offer a UI tailored for controllers, fact.

Doesn't harm it but it has no place being there, never mind actually using a desktop OS with a controller to begin with. Again, you're forgetting what this thing is being designed for, and it's not your desk.

 

Incorrect, SteamOS will be able to stream games from a Windows PC over LAN.

Versus just hooking up a Windows PC to the TV and running everything instead, including games outside of Steam, never mind the significantly bigger Steam library, saving a bunch of money, plus skipping the potential lag issues and such? Having to rely on Windows anyway is a selling point? Why not cut the redundant middleman out and go with the system that does it all? Jakem1 sums it up nicely above.

[Axel]

I'm curious about the "game streaming" for games not natively supported on linux.  Does this mean it will render and stream games from your main PC?  In which case a powerful machine wouldn't be required at all if you already have a top spec main computer.

 

Edit: I answered my own question by googling:

 

The prototype isn?t yet ?finished enough? for a photo, says Coomer, but he teases upcoming details on SteamOS?s streaming technology, which allows games to be streamed from a Windows PC to another PC running SteamOS, as well as the Steam Controller, Valve?s custom solution for PC gaming on a couch.

Source: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/10/04/steam-machine-prototype-specs/

 

With this in mind I'm very much interested in what the specs of a "streaming only" steam machine would need to be!

[Athernar]

Doesn't harm it but it has no place being there, never mind actually using a desktop OS with a controller to begin with. Again, you're forgetting what this thing is being designed for, and it's not your desk.

 

Versus just hooking up a Windows PC to the TV and running everything instead, saving a bunch of money, never mind potential lag issues and such? This is a selling point?

 

It has every right and reason to be there, especially since you now admit it does no harm. You don't know what the long term plan is for SteamOS, and since you've now conceeded the prior admission - the "designed for" point is moot anyway.

 

Or you know, they could push an open platform, not have to pay licensing costs to Microsoft, and allow themselves and other developers to optimise broadly rather than just within their respective engines.

[Eric Veteran]

This information leads me to wonder what Valve is thinking even more than I already did. All of this is supposed to fit into an inexpensive box the size of a clock radio like they were showing on their announcement page? I don't think that's going to happen. This is going to result in companies releasing computers that are twice the price of a next-gen console with a limited Linux distro if anyone releases anything at all.

[Max Norris]

It has every right and reason to be there, especially since you now admit it does no harm. You don't know what the long term plan is for SteamOS, and since you've now conceeded the prior admission - the "designed for" point is moot anyway.

It most certainly isn't moot, in fact it's the center of the whole "argument" that you're trying to push, namely trying to justify a desktop OS on a media center system. And again, how exactly is that even going to work? Going to navigate a file manager, desktop menus, or even a console with a gamepad? Good luck with that. Nothing sells a system better by showing how clunky it is to use.

 

Or you know, they could push an open platform, not have to pay licensing costs to Microsoft, and allow themselves and other developers to optimise broadly rather than just within their respective engines.

Which has already existed for years. As said before, repeatedly, whats the point? Linux gaming already exists. Trying to pass off having to rely on a Windows machine to do the heavy lifting isn't a feature, it's a crutch. It makes no sense. If they'd do a simple streaming device at a small price, I'd personally be all over that. Just another system that does what everybody is already doing now... so what? It's not going to appeal to console gamers, and it's not going to appeal to the vast majority of PC gamers, namely why buy two systems when I can just use one that does it all plus more? Who are they trying to sell this thing to? What role is it filling that hasn't been done many, many times before?

[theyarecomingforyou]

It's extremely optimistic to describe this as something that competes with a Microsoft product.

True, though that's mainly because it is a premium product that will outperform traditional consoles. It's like a Ferrari going up against a Kia - the people buying them are looking for different things.

[Athernar]

It most certainly isn't moot, in fact it's the center of the whole "argument" that you're trying to push, namely trying to justify a desktop OS on a media center system. And again, how exactly is that even going to work? Going to navigate a file manager, desktop menus, or even a console with a gamepad? Good luck with that. Nothing sells a system better by showing how clunky it is to use.

 

Do you have short-term memory loss or are you just trolling? We've covered this twice now in this very thread.

 

This is what Big Picture mode is for, it provides the controller based UI with the desktop being optional if the user decides they want it.

 

Which has already existed for years. As said before, repeatedly, whats the point? Linux gaming already exists. Trying to pass of having to rely on a Windows machine to do the heavy lifting isn't a feature, it's a crutch. It makes no sense. If they'd do a simple streaming device at a small price, I'd personally be all over that. Just another system that does what everybody is already doing now... so what? It's not going to appeal to console gamers, and it's not going to appeal to the vast majority of PC gamers, namely why buy two systems when I can just use one that does it all plus more? Who are they trying to sell this thing to? What role is it filling that hasn't been done many, many times before?

 

You're being short sighted here. The state of linux gaming is pitiful, and that's even after the injection of life Valve gave it by porting Steam, providing a distro tailored towards gaming with a push like this could be just what Linux gaming needs to take off.

 

Seriously, it's like you have some sort of odd attachment to the status quo.

[Max Norris]

Do you have short-term memory loss or are you just trolling? We've covered this twice now in this very thread. This is what Big Picture mode is for, it provides the controller based UI with the desktop being optional if the user decides they want it.

Yea, I get that. You mentioned that a lot. And I keep asking.. why a full desktop OS when it's completely unsuited for what the unit is being designed for? By your own "logic" slapping Windows on it and throwing Steam into a startup would be just as good.. hey it doesn't interfere right? Why not their own custom thing running on the Linux kernel? Still waiting for an answer on that. You brought this third party stuff into it, not me, and I showed you (repeatedly) how incorporating a pre-existing setup into it is doing exactly that, getting chained to a third party. Talk about memory loss eh? This "argument" of yours is just getting tiresome, and as mentioned by more than just myself, it sounds like you're just getting off on being argumentative. Prove a point or move on, it's old already, and frankly getting rather boring.

 

You're being short sighted here. The state of linux gaming is pitiful, and that's even after the injection of life Valve gave it by porting Steam, providing a distro tailored towards gaming with a push like this could be just what Linux gaming needs to take off.

No, it's being realistic and I don't follow fortune cookies or wishful thinking. Yay, Steam runs on Linux. And yet still a very very small percentage of Steam games actually run on it. (You do know there's more than just Valve making games, right?) And again, throw on the ton of games that aren't even available through Steam. You've got your blinders on here to the chicken vs the egg problem they're walking into... if they sell a bunch of these things then maybe Linux might take off as a gaming OS and maybe other publishers might follow suit. Meanwhile, in the current state of things, it's going to be very hard to push such a thing to gamers in the first place as there isn't a whole lot that actually runs on it yet.. why bother when I can buy either a console or a Windows based PC and get it all right now? Are you a fan of "Gee I sure hope they port that game someday?" See the dilemma?

 

Seriously, it's like you have some sort of odd attachment to the status quo.

No, I got an odd attachment to sticking with what actually works, not "maybes", "year of's", or "could be." I go with what works, if you like to play sheep knock yourself out. And so far, I see zero reason why anyone outside of a Linux enthusiast would want such a thing, there is no benefit whatsoever over what's already available now, regardless of which OS the person wants.

[theyarecomingforyou]

You're being short sighted here. The state of linux gaming is pitiful, and that's even after the injection of life Valve gave it by porting Steam, providing a distro tailored towards gaming with a push like this could be just what Linux gaming needs to take off.

This is pretty much my position. Valve is putting its collective might behind Linux and will be actively developing a distro primarily aimed at gamers, which is something we haven't seen before - at least not anything credible. Microsoft isn't the dominant force that it used to be thanks to the rising influence of smartphones and tablets, both of which are markets Microsoft is struggling to compete in. Even on the desktop Microsoft has faced widespread criticism and it hasn't taken PC gaming seriously in over a decade. Even if Steam Machines don't prove to be wildly popular it might motivate Microsoft to take PC gaming more seriously with future Windows releases.

[jakem1]

True, though that's mainly because it is a premium product that will outperform traditional consoles. It's like a Ferrari going up against a Kia - the people buying them are looking for different things.

 

I don't know.  It seems like a console that's designed for people who hate console gaming and hate the idea of a box that can't be upgraded.  I'll be very surprised if this appeals to more than a very tiny niche.

[chrisj1968]

There's probably no ATI cards because as previously mentioned ATI doesn't seem to care about breaking compatibility, not fixing problems or not updating GFX drivers for linux.

I wouldn't ever get an ATI card for a linux PC based purely on how crap I've seen them be with drivers.

excuse me? you had BETTER watch the youtube video of linus torvalds FU Nvidia. better quit while you're behind. AMD has been VERY generous with Linux and drivers

 

Plus alot of people say they (Nvidia) have broken drivers for windows and linux

[+Majesticmerc MVC]

excuse me? you had BETTER watch the youtube video of linus torvalds FU Nvidia. better quit while you're behind. AMD has been VERY generous with Linux and drivers

 

Plus alot of people say they (Nvidia) have broken drivers for windows and linux

Linus wasn't referring to the state of Nvidia's graphics drivers (which are pretty good, and infinitely better than AMD's drivers), he was referring to Nvidia being a pain in the ass to work with in general.

Regardless, Linus comments do appear to have rubbed off on Nvidia, since they're one of the biggest Linux contributors this year, even beating AMD.

[remixedcat]

That is a very underpowered PSU. I always recommend, with that config above at least a 550w PSU or above.

That is really straining.

[Phouchg]

That is a very underpowered PSU. I always recommend, with that config above at least a 550w PSU or above.

That is really straining.

How much power does one need to remix a cat? :ninja:

[Athernar]

Yea, I get that. You mentioned that a lot. And I keep asking.. why a full desktop OS when it's completely unsuited for what the unit is being designed for? By your own "logic" slapping Windows on it and throwing Steam into a startup would be just as good.. hey it doesn't interfere right? Why not their own custom thing running on the Linux kernel? Still waiting for an answer on that. You brought this third party stuff into it, not me, and I showed you (repeatedly) how incorporating a pre-existing setup into it is doing exactly that, getting chained to a third party. Talk about memory loss eh? This "argument" of yours is just getting tiresome, and as mentioned by more than just myself, it sounds like you're just getting off on being argumentative. Prove a point or move on, it's old already, and frankly getting rather boring.

 

This also has been already explained to you, but you're so unwilling to admit that you are wrong you cannot piece it together, and your posts are become more and more incoherent because of it.

 

All your points have been refuted by me and others in this thread, so unless you have a new argument, I'm done with your repetition trolling.

 

No, it's being realistic and I don't follow fortune cookies or wishful thinking. Yay, Steam runs on Linux. And yet still a very very small percentage of Steam games actually run on it. (You do know there's more than just Valve making games, right?) And again, throw on the ton of games that aren't even available through Steam. You've got your blinders on here to the chicken vs the egg problem they're walking into... if they sell a bunch of these things then maybe Linux might take off as a gaming OS and maybe other publishers might follow suit. Meanwhile, in the current state of things, it's going to be very hard to push such a thing to gamers in the first place as there isn't a whole lot that actually runs on it yet.. why bother when I can buy either a console or a Windows based PC and get it all right now? Are you a fan of "Gee I sure hope they port that game someday?" See the dilemma?

 

No, you're just incredibly stubborn and resistant to any form of change or experimentation. If it was down to you we'd all be using 8-bit monochrome terminals.

 

No, I got an odd attachment to sticking with what actually works, not "maybes", "year of's", or "could be." I go with what works, if you like to play sheep knock yourself out. And so far, I see zero reason why anyone outside of a Linux enthusiast would want such a thing, there is no benefit whatsoever over what's already available now, regardless of which OS the person wants.

 

Good for you, but not everyone is as stubborn or short-sighted as you are.

[theyarecomingforyou]

I don't know.  It seems like a console that's designed for people who hate console gaming and hate the idea of a box that can't be upgraded.

It's about serving gamers who want the convenience of consoles without the limitations (poor graphics, lack of upgradability, overpriced games, protracted lifecycles, lack of backwards compatibility, etc). Microsoft and Sony don't offer products for those willing to pay more, which is something Valve is hoping to capitalise on with Steam Machines. It's not about hating consoles but about catering to those who want a better product and are willing to pay for it.