crazy people Italian schoolboys taught not to kill women

[mudslag]

Yes, they are responsible.

 

My point, though, is that even if we drilled in into every boy's head that they need to respect women, there will always be bad people. Lecturing guys won't amount to much if women don't start avoiding these bad people. We aren't going to reduce the number of rapes in this country by just lecturing men on not raping women. If we're really serious about reducing rape, it has to be a message to both men and women -- both equally.

 

Men have a choice: don't be a bad person. Choose to be responsible, stay away from the drinking culture and treat women with respect. Its they're fault if they don't make that choice, and their responsibility if they fail to do that. Women, on their part, also have a choice: stay away from the bad men -- men who only care about how they look and whether they'll get drunk with them.

 

 

Yes of course bad stuff will still happen, just like teaching sex ed wont fully stop teen pregnancy and STDs, that doesn't change that it helps. I also don't think we should limit teaching to just saying "rape is bad", we need to teach that standing up and speaking out for those when you see something happening. To many times people turn a blind eye cause they don't want to get involved. 

[McKay]

These "Don't commit crime X" things are worthless. Everyone knows its wrong and illegal to do them. They don't commit these acts because they think its legal. 

 

There will always be bad people out there. They do them in the first place because they're messed up, and because they think they won't get caught. Or a heat of the moment when you didn't mean to. Either way they all know it was wrong to do. 

 

What is the course going to entail? A teacher walks in and says "Murdering people is wrong" and the students reply back. "We know"?

 

 

Yes of course bad stuff will still happen, just like teaching sex ed wont fully stop teen pregnancy and STDs, that doesn't change that it helps.

 

I don't think that's really comparable. Teen pregnancies are likely to happen because young teens knowledge of how to perform it safely is very limited, teaching them facts and telling which rumours were fiction really helps. But these classes saying "Don't murder". I'm sure the students already know.

[mudslag]

These "Don't commit crime X" things are worthless. Everyone knows its wrong and illegal to do them. They don't commit these acts because they think its legal. 

 

There will always be bad people out there. They do them in the first place because they're messed up, and because they think they won't get caught. Or a heat of the moment when you didn't mean to. Either way they all know it was wrong to do. 

 

What is the course going to entail? A teacher walks in and says "Murdering people is wrong" and the students reply back. "We know"?

 

 

Just like everyone knows to wear a condom and dont sleep around. Sex ed classes are worthless. 

 

 

/s

 

 

:rolleyes:

[thomastmc]

No, I don't have misconceptions. The relationship to the victim is exactly part of my point and why I cited that in my post. I was pointing out most rapists aren't shady guys stalking women on the street.

 

The other part of my point is that alcohol is involved in the vast majority of cases, and also in the majority of cases happens at parties involving things like binge drinking. College campuses have a big rape problem. The military has a big rape problem, because of its after hours culture. It isn't just random "sick individuals." It isn't your local mailman. It isn't the geek in the library. It isn't your gardener. Its men who are part of a party culture that encourages bad behavior.

 

Making it sound like its just random guys obscures the problem. That prevents a real solution.

Statistically, most rapes happen because of parties that involve a lot of booze, drugs, and sex. This is where they happen on college campuses and its also where they happen in the military. The military has a huge after-hours drinking culture, its called "work hard, play hard." They're trying to deal with this institutionally by monitoring parties and controlling drinking.

 

So the ideas that either most rapes are caused by a. mentally ill people who are serial rapists targeting women on the street, or b. people who are just regular, innocuous, unsuspecting men who women have no chance of avoiding, are both wrong.

 

Most rapes happen by men that get drunk and are looking for girls to dress skimpy and party and get drunk with them. These men are entirely avoidable.

 

You say that you don't have any misconceptions, and then you restate misconceptions...

 

 

• 4 in 10 take place at the victim's home.
• 73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
• In 1 in 3 sexual assaults, the perpetrator was intoxicated ? 30% with alcohol, 4% with drugs.
• More than 50% of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occured within 1 mile of their home or at their home.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

 

 

 

The men are usually someone the victims knows, which is someone "regular, innocuous, unsuspecting men who women have no chance of avoiding".

 

Even among college students, most rapes happen on a date, not at a party. Presumably with someone who fits "regular, innocuous, unsuspecting men who women have no chance of avoiding".

 

Only 1/3 of rapes happen when someone is intoxicated.

 

The average age of rapists is 31, not necessarily someone who is living in a "party culture".

 

Rape has nothing to do with sexual gratification or a man being horny because a woman is scantily dressed.

 

 

Myth: Rape is caused by lust or uncontrollable sexual urges and the need for sexual gratification.

Fact: Rape is an act of physical violence and domination that is not motivated by sexual gratification.

Myth: Once a man gets sexually aroused, he can't just stop.

Fact: Men do not physically need to have sex after becoming sexually excited. Moreover, they are still able to control themselves after becoming aroused.

Myth: Women often lie about rape or falsely accuse someone of rape.

Fact: Statistical studies indicate false reports make up two percent or less of the reported cases of sexual assault. This figure is approximately the same for other types of crimes. Only one out of 10 rapes are actually reported. Rapes by someone the victim knows are the least likely to be reported.

Myth: Women provoke sexual assault by their appearance. Sexual attractiveness is a primary reason why a rapist selects a victim.

Fact: Rapists do not select their victims by their appearance. They select victims who are vulnerable and accessible. Victims of sexual assault range in age groups from infants to the elderly. Sexual attractiveness is not an issue.

http://rwu.edu/campus-life/health-counseling/counseling-center/sexual-assault/rape-myths-and-fac

[McKay]

Just like everyone knows to wear a condom and dont sleep around. Sex ed classes are worthless :rolleyes:

I included your comparison in my post. Seemingly while you were writing yours. 

 

As I said earlier. I don't think you can compare the 2. One is a class to teach young teens about something they'll know little about. With all the complications. 

 

The other is telling people something that is already blindingly obvious to everyone. 

[thomastmc]

I included your comparison in my post. Seemingly while you were writing yours. 

 

As I said earlier. I don't think you can compare the 2. One is a class to teach young teens about something they'll know little about. With all the complications. 

 

The other is telling people something that is already blindingly obvious to everyone. 

 

If it was blindingly obvious to everyone there wouldn't be any controversy in this topic, or a problem with women being murdered in Italy, or America, or anywhere else.

 

The problem is that many people are incapable of understanding what is blindingly obvious to most of us. This is true on many subjects.

 

Hopefully, by educating them when they're still young (before they've become unwilling to question what is obvious or not), it will become blindingly obvious to more people.

[mudslag]

I included your comparison in my post. Seemingly while you were writing yours. 

 

As I said earlier. I don't think you can compare the 2. One is a class to teach young teens about something they'll know little about. With all the complications. 

 

The other is telling people something that is already blindingly obvious to everyone. 

 

 

 

Dont speed, wear your seat belt, dont run into traffic, don't put your hand in a fire, don't play with guns, don't lie under oath, don't ect... Being obvious doesn't mean we should ignore and not talk about it. This isn't a class being taught in a prison or a work place, this is something being taught to school aged kids. You can tell kids something a thousand times, some will still end up doing what you just said not to do anyways.  

[redfish]

 

The men are usually someone the victims knows, which is someone "regular, innocuous, unsuspecting men who women have no chance of avoiding".

 

Yea, if you go to a party, chances are you'll know a lot of the guys there. And, if you meet a guy at a party scene, and then afterwards go on a date with him and drink on the date, its not much of a less avoidable scenario. Its still not someone you meet at a library.  If the guy you date is someone you met at the library, what do you think the chances are he's going to bring you home, get you drunk, and rape you? Guess the answer. 

 

As for the intoxication statistics, you completely ignored the study I posted myself with no comment.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-599904.html

 

 

Binge drinking and rape seem to go hand-in-hand on U.S. college campuses.

A new study has found colleges and universities with higher rates of binge drinking also have more rapes. In addition, nearly three-quarters of rape victims reported being intoxicated at the time of the attack.

 

Either the men are drinking too, or these are men intentionally refraining from drinking while the women get drunk. Either way, its still not some guy you meet at a library. If predatory, its going to be someone trolling bars and parties looking for someone vulnerable.  If its not predatory, and the guy is drunk, which even in RAINN's statistics, happens 30% of the time (still a lot of cases) its a guy that's out of control.

 

On the same study

 

 

Overall, one in 20 (4.7 percent) women reported being raped in college since the beginning of the school year ? a period of approximately 7 months ? and nearly three-quarters of those rapes (72 percent) happened when the victims were so intoxicated they were unable to consent or refuse.  ... Indeed, frequent and even occasional binge drinkers were more likely to  have been raped while intoxicated, the study found. In addition, this is the first study to compare the incidence of rape among intoxicated women on campuses with heavy drinking versus lower binge-drinking rates.  ... "Binge drinking isn't a harmless rite of passage but a risk factor in violence against women," said George W. Dowdall, Ph.D., a co-author of the study and professor of sociology at Saint Joseph's University. "Institutions of higher education need to change the culture of college drinking in order to make colleges safer and healthier environments."

 

Still doesn't happen with a guy you meet in the library.

 

I also never said that people don't continue drinking and partying after college or drink in other environments. College is one environment in which its common. I mentioned the military has a rape problem too. People who go to parties in college continue afterwards. But what's your explanation on why 31 is the average age? Do younger men just happen to want to physically control women? Or do people who have immature attitudes about sex also happen to have control issues, that come about because of their immature attitudes about sex?

[McKay]

If it was blindingly obvious to everyone there wouldn't be any controversy in this topic, or a problem with women being murdered in Italy, or America, or anywhere else.

 

The problem is that many people are incapable of understanding what is blindingly obvious to most of us. This is true on many subjects.

 

Hopefully, by educating them when they're still young (before they've become unwilling to question what is obvious or not), it will become blindingly obvious to more people.

 

I'm pretty certain that murderers know full well murdering is illegal. They do it anyway. As I said earlier. You're trying to say that people murder others because they think its legal and fine?

[redfish]

 

You say that you don't have any misconceptions, and then you restate misconceptions...

 

See my first reply, first. I don't think I'm wildly wrong even if RAINNs statistics are fully true. But I looked around because I wanted to corroborate RAINN's numbers on the intoxication of the perpetrator.

 

From a 1991 study,

http://www.interactivetheatre.org/resc/alcohol.html

 

 

Alcohol use by the victim or perpetrator is frequently associated with acquaintance rape. In one study, 26 percent of the men who acknowledged committing sexual assault on a date reported being intoxicated at the time of the assault. An additional 29 percent reported being "mildly buzzed," Thus, a total of 55 Percent were under the influence of alcohol.

 

In the same study, 21 percent of the college women who experienced sexual aggression on a date were intoxicated at the time of the assault. An additional 32 percent reported being "mildly buzzed." Thus, a total of 53 percent were under the influence of alcohol.

 

So RAINN may be intentionally reducing the number by leaving out alcohol consumption that wasn't reported as rising to the level of intoxication.

 

A more recent (2009) study, though one in Ireland.

http://www.herald.ie/news/ninein10-rape-suspects-were-binge-drinking-27934977.html

 

 

NEARLY two-thirds of rape victims and nine-in-10 rape suspects were binge drinking at the time an alleged rape occurred.

...

 

That's according to a new study commissioned by the Rape Crisis Network of Ireland (RCNI). A previous study found that only 10pc of rape victims report to the gardai. But a review of those  who do report has shown that binge drinking may be a factor in cases which do not result in a prosecution.

 

And here is something published and updated from the National Resource Center on Domestic Violence:

 

http://www.vawnet.org/applied-research-papers/print-document.php?doc_id=1586

 

 

 

Approximately half of these adolescent perpetrators were drinking alcohol at the time of the assault; not surprisingly the rates of alcohol use increased with age. In a recent study with male college students, Gidycz and colleagues (2007) found that 52% of the men who reported committing a sexual assault since age 14 had been drinking alcohol at the time of the assault. Participants completed a follow-up survey three months later and 64% of the new sexual assaults committed while these men were at college occurred after they had been drinking alcohol.

Researchers have also consistently found a positive relationship between sexual assault perpetration and heavy drinking. For example, in a large statewide survey, male high school students who reported forcing someone to engage in a sexual act were more likely than nonperpetrators to drink alcohol on a daily basis (Borowsky, Hogan, & Ireland , 1997). Neal and Fromme (2007) found that among first year college students, heavier drinkers were more likely to report that they perpetrated sexual assault. Abbey and colleagues (2006) found a positive relationship between a history of alcohol problems and sexual assault perpetration in a community sample of single adult men. Sexual assault severity is often positively correlated with a history of problematic drinking. 

 

This analysis seems to suggest that the perpetrators tend to do habitual drinking even outside of the incident in question.

[thomastmc]

See my first reply, first. I don't think I'm wildly wrong even if RAINNs statistics are fully true. But I looked around because I wanted to corroborate RAINN's statistics on the intoxication of the perpetrator.

 

From 1991,

http://www.interactivetheatre.org/resc/alcohol.html

 

 

So RAINN may be intentionally reducing the number by leaving out alcohol consumption that wasn't reported as rising to the level of intoxication.

 

A more recent (2009) study, though one in Ireland.

http://www.herald.ie/news/ninein10-rape-suspects-were-binge-drinking-27934977.html

 

First of all, RAINN's statistics come from the Department of Justice, and they're on America, not Ireland. They're national statistics, not just of colleges. Their sources are referenced easily for you to find.

 

The national statistic in America is that 30% of rapes involve alcohol. Yes, it is much higher on college campuses, but not in the majority of rape cases. More than 50% of all rapes and sexual assaults, in America, happen within 1 mile of the victim's home. Not the victim's college, or a party, or dorms, or frat houses.

 

Secondly, I don't see what your point is in the end... Most women aren't raped because they're too drunk to say no. A rapist is a rapist, like a child molester is a child molester. 

 

Rape is committed by people who are sick and violent, not by normal guys at parties who have one too many and get tempted into it by a girl who's scantily dressed and also drunk. That's perhaps the biggest misconception you have shown to believe.

 

UN Study Looks at High Rate of Rape

 

What have you learned about why men rape?

Sexual entitlement is the most common motivation across all of these countries. I think that very, very strongly points to the root of rape in gender relations, and the fact that rape is really legitimized in so many of these countries.

What do you mean by sexual entitlement?

Sexual entitlement means feeling that you ought to be able to have sex with a woman?essentially, if you want it, you can have it. The flip side of that is [the idea] that it's a woman's responsibility to make sure that she doesn't have sex when she doesn't want it. If a woman is raped, she would be blamed for putting herself at risk for being raped.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/09/130914-rape-asia-pacific-un-men-violence-women/

 

Hall's own work delineates four major types of rapist.

• Type 1 is influenced by deviant sexual arousal, which occurs when he has thoughts of violence against women. This type is likely to be extremely impulsive.
• Type 2 is motivated by cognitive distortions, or thinking errors; he mistakenly interprets events or information differently than other men would. He believes that some women enjoy being raped, or want to be raped. For this type, rape is part of a conquest, a way of demonstrating masculinity. Most date rapists are Type 2s.
• Type 3, says Hall, is motivated by anger or emotional discontrol. These men are so angry, especially at women, that the only way for them to deal with their anger is to act out sexually toward women. Not surprisingly, this type is the most violent and most dangerous.
• Type 4 is the repeat offender. He is most likely to have been physically or sexually abused as a child. He has difficulty establishing enduring relationships, and a history of chronic problems in schools or in his family. Type 4 men break a variety of rules, both sexual and nonsexual.

"Many rapists aren't just dirty old men who offend against strangers; they are often people with whom we share parts of our lives."

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199211/round-rapists

 

[redfish]

First of all, RAINN's statistics come from the Department of Justice, and they're on America, not Ireland. They're national statistics, not just of colleges. Their sources are referenced easily for you to find.

 

The national statistic in America is that 30% of rapes involve alcohol. Yes, it is much higher on college campuses, but not in the majority of rape cases. More than 50% of all rapes and sexual assaults, in America, happen within 1 mile of the victim's home. Not the victim's college, or a party, or dorms, or frat houses.

 

Secondly, I don't see what your point is in the end... Most women aren't raped because they're too drunk to say no. A rapist is a rapist, like a child molester is a child molester. 

 

Rape is committed by people who are sick and violent, not by normal guys at parties who have one too many and get tempted into it by a girl who's scantily dressed and also drunk. That's perhaps the biggest misconception you have shown to believe.

 

Within one mile of a victim's home can mean at a party, dorms, or frat houses.

 

What I'm saying is rape is often committed by men who are emotionally immature and have control issues. They drink a lot and are interested in scoring. I personally think you're hung up on whether they're "normal" or not. The majority of guys have some level of maturity, some amount of self-control, and know their limits, so even if they go to a party and get drunk they're still not going to be a rapist. But the fact that a minority of guys have problems with emotional maturity and don't know their limits doesn't necessarily mean they're otherwise "not normal." 

 

Its also a mistake to think emotional immaturity has nothing to do with immature understanding about things like sex and drinking and its all dis-related, and it all has to do with their mother talking down to them when they were a kid and their anger at their mom. Impulsiveness. Misunderstanding social cues. Thinking you have sexual entitlement. Yes. These are normal problems in people who lack maturity. Not pathologies. People over-psychoanalyze.

 

Read the last study I cited from in full.

[thomastmc]

Within one mile of a victim's home can mean at a party, dorms, or frat houses.

 

What I'm saying is rape is often committed by men who are emotionally immature and have control issues. They drink a lot and are interested in scoring. I personally think you're hung up on whether they're "normal" or not. The majority of guys have some level of maturity, some amount of self-control, and know their limits, so even if they go to a party and get drunk they're still not going to be a rapist. But the fact that a minority of guys have problems with emotional maturity and don't know their limits doesn't necessarily mean they're otherwise "not normal." 

 

Its also a mistake to think emotional immaturity has nothing to do with immature understanding about things like sex and drinking and its all disrelated. Impulsiveness. Misunderstanding social cues. Yes. Normal problems in people who lack maturity.

 

Read the last study I cited from in full.

 

I'm hung up on "normal", because rapists are "not normal". You're hung up on college and alcohol :)

 

UN Study Looks at High Rate of Rape

 

What have you learned about why men rape?

Sexual entitlement is the most common motivation across all of these countries. I think that very, very strongly points to the root of rape in gender relations, and the fact that rape is really legitimized in so many of these countries.

What do you mean by sexual entitlement?

Sexual entitlement means feeling that you ought to be able to have sex with a woman?essentially, if you want it, you can have it. The flip side of that is [the idea] that it's a woman's responsibility to make sure that she doesn't have sex when she doesn't want it. If a woman is raped, she would be blamed for putting herself at risk for being raped.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/09/130914-rape-asia-pacific-un-men-violence-women/

 

Hall's own work delineates four major types of rapist.

• Type 1 is influenced by deviant sexual arousal, which occurs when he has thoughts of violence against women. This type is likely to be extremely impulsive.
•  
• Type 2 is motivated by cognitive distortions, or thinking errors; he mistakenly interprets events or information differently than other men would. He believes that some women enjoy being raped, or want to be raped. For this type, rape is part of a conquest, a way of demonstrating masculinity. Most date rapists are Type 2s.
•  
• Type 3, says Hall, is motivated by anger or emotional discontrol. These men are so angry, especially at women, that the only way for them to deal with their anger is to act out sexually toward women. Not surprisingly, this type is the most violent and most dangerous.
•  
• Type 4 is the repeat offender. He is most likely to have been physically or sexually abused as a child. He has difficulty establishing enduring relationships, and a history of chronic problems in schools or in his family. Type 4 men break a variety of rules, both sexual and nonsexual.

"Many rapists aren't just dirty old men who offend against strangers; they are often people with whom we share parts of our lives."

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199211/round-rapists

 

In reference to the study you cited:

 

If I get drunk and say horrible things to you, I'm a d**k.

If I get drunk and pick a fight with you, I'm a violent a**hole.

 

If I get drunk and molest a child, I'm a sick violent child molester.

If I get drunk and kill someone because I'm angry, I'm a sick violent murderer.

 

If I get drunk at a party and corner you in the bathroom, or lure you out somewhere, and force you to have sex with me, I'm a sick violent rapist.

If I go to a party and get drunk and find a girl passed out in a room and have sex with her while she's unconscious, I'm a sick violent rapist.

[redfish]

 

I'm hung up on "normal", because rapists are "not normal". You're hung up on college and alcohol :)

 

 

Well, I've read testimonials from guys who said they never imagined they could rape a woman, but did, and from girls who have said the guy that raped them seemed normal. So I'm just questioning whether some standard of psychological normality really helps people understand the issue.

 

I'm not saying these guys don't have problems. They do -- which is why they need to be held accountable, or they're going to repeat the same behavior again and hurt more women. That's why the victim can't be blamed. I'm just saying its not pathological and not disconnected to their emotional attitudes.

 

A study you cited blamed something called "sexual entitlement", I'm sure there's a group of women don't like it when they're boyfriend doesn't have sex with them. I know someone who said that his first sexual experience was from a girl who blackmailed him and said she would dump him if he didn't sleep with her. So he did, even though he was previously committed to wait until marriage for sex. The problem isn't that men feel more than women "sexually entitled" -- its that men are more dangerous than women when that's true. The second study, as I said cited things like impulsivity. Well, duh. That can be a problem with both men and women. Its just more dangerous with men.

[thomastmc]

Well, I've read testimonials from guys who said they never imagined they could rape a woman, but did, and from girls who have said the guy that raped them seemed normal. So I'm just questioning whether some standard of psychological normality really helps people understand the issue.

 

I'm not saying these guys don't have problems. They do -- which is why they need to be held accountable, or they're going to repeat the same behavior again and hurt more women. That's why the victim can't be blamed. I'm just saying its not pathological and not disconnected to their emotional attitudes.

 

A study you cited blamed something called "sexual entitlement", I'm sure there's a group of women don't like it when they're boyfriend doesn't have sex with them. I know someone who said that his first sexual experience was from a girl who blackmailed him and said she would dump him if he didn't sleep with her. So he did.

 

The problem isn't that men feel more than women "sexually entitled" -- its that men are more dangerous than women when that's true. The second study, as I said cited things like impulsivity. Well, duh. That can be a problem with both men and women. Its just more dangerous with men.

 

A lot of child molesters and serial killers are described as "normal" and even very charming by men and women who knew them, before they knew of their sick acts. They're still sickos though. It amazes me how that isn't "blindingly obvious", to reference @McKay.

 

I can't believe that you actually thought about the bold text before you typed it. 

 

What do you mean by sexual entitlement?

Sexual entitlement means feeling that you ought to be able to have sex with a woman?essentially, if you want it, you can have it.

The flip side of that is [the idea] that it's a woman's responsibility to make sure that she doesn't have sex when she doesn't want it. If a woman is raped, she would be blamed for putting herself at risk for being raped.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/09/130914-rape-asia-pacific-un-men-violence-women/

Type 1 is influenced by deviant sexual arousal, which occurs when he has thoughts of violence against women. This type is likely to be extremely impulsive.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199211/round-rapists

[redfish]

 

 A lot of child molesters and serial killers are described as "normal" and even very charming by men and women who knew them, before they knew of their sick acts. They're still sickos though. It amazes me how that isn't "blindingly obvious", to reference @McKay.

 

I can't believe that you actually thought about the bold text before you typed it. 

 

 

Yes, I understood the bold text. The first citation describes men who feel, when they're already involved in a romantic situation, that sex is always the end and the goal, and a woman shouldn't lead them on if they don't want sex. It doesn't describe men who find random women on the street because they they're entitled to have sex with random women. I was saying this happens with women in relationships, too. Which it does. Sexual entitlement isn't a property of men. The second citation: sado-masochist fetishes aren't that unusual. They happen with women, too.

 

And sure, I realized someone might say people think child molesters seem like normal people. They also tend to have more uncommon problems though. That's not really related to the point I was trying to make, at any rate.

 

This National Geographic article seems to agree that its not exclusive to men.

 

"Foresexual contact is similar for females and males," Ybarra said, with females slightly edging out males in this category (52 percent and 47 percent, respectively).

 

"But when you get into coercive and attempted rape, it does seem to differ"?with males committing 75 percent of these crimes, compared with 25 percent committed by females.

 

But they also found that completed rape is predominantly a male crime?a finding that is in line with general attitudes about rape, according to Sharmili Majmudar of Chicago-based Rape Victim Advocates, which was not associated with the study.

[thomastmc]

Yes, I understood the bold text. The first citation describes men who feel, when they're already involved in a romantic situation, that sex is always the end and the goal, and a woman shouldn't lead them on if they don't want sex. It doesn't describe men who find random women on the street because they they're entitled to have sex with random women. I was saying this happens with women in relationships, too. Which it does. Sexual entitlement isn't a property of men. The second citation: sado-masochist fetishes aren't that unusual. They happen with women, too.

 

And sure, I realized someone might say people think child molesters seem like normal people. They also tend to have more uncommon problems though. That's not really related to the point I was trying to make, at any rate.

 

You're making stuff up, there is no reference to a romantic situation. If that's what you think it meant you're wrong, read it again. Better yet, read the article.

 

You'll find that people say that many murderers are normal, serial killers are normal, child molesters are normal, rapists are normal, etc... By people who knew them before they knew of their actions. That is directly related to the point you made.

 

S&M fetishes that lead to rape are unusual and not normal, even more not normal than S&M fetishes. They're what's called raping :)

[redfish]

You're making stuff up, there is no reference to a romantic situation. If that's what you think it meant you're wrong, read it again. Better yet, read the article.

 

I have read the article. If the "flip side" is its the woman's responsibility to avoid sexual situations, it means there was a belief on the part of a man of a sexual situation.

 

Didn't say its normal for S&M to lead to raping, just pointing out that that's all "deviant sexual arousal" refers to --- S&M. 

[thomastmc]

I have read the article. If the "flip side" is its the woman's responsibility to avoid sexual situations, it means there was a belief on the part of a man of a sexual situation.

 

Didn't say its normal for S&M to lead to raping, just pointing out that that's all "deviant sexual arousal" refers to --- S&M. 

 

And if he considers that pulling a girl into ally, or forcing himself on her is a sexual situation, you might have a good point. But, it has nothing to do with what situation the man and the woman are in. Rather, the psychology of how men view women in general.

 

The second citation: sado-masochist fetishes aren't that unusual. They happen with women, too.

 

The National Geographic article seems to agree that its not exclusive to men.

 

S&M aren't that unusual, but if you truly understood the citation you'd know that it's about rape. It's S&M that leads to rape.  

 

It's not even S&M, it's really just S when you're talking about rape :) (as you say, duh)

 

You didn't actually read all of your quote from NatGeo, or you didn't understand what foresexual meant. Either way, it says that coercive and attempted rape are predominantly male. Which means that, of course, women do partake , but it's men who commit 75% of the crimes.

[StandingInAlley]

This is really required in India. The scene is pathetic here.

[redfish]

And if he considers that pulling a girl into ally, or forcing himself on her is a sexual situation, you might have a good point. But, it has nothing to do with what situation the man and the woman are in. Rather, the psychology of how men view women in general.

 

S&M aren't that unusual, but if you truly understood the citation you'd know that it's about rape. It's S&M that leads to rape.  

 

It's not even S&M, it's really just S when you're talking about rape :) (as you say, duh)

 

You didn't actually read all of your quote from NatGeo, or you didn't understand what foresexual meant. Either way, it says that coercive and attempted rape are predominantly male. Which means that, of course, women do partake , but it's men who commit 75% of the crimes.

 

You're talking about a man pulling a girl into an alley, but I thought we agreed on the fact that most rape is acquaintance rape and a lot of it happens on dates (date rape) and takes place between people who are romantically involved. At one point the article talks about gang rape situations... but, again, that goes to the same issue. Its not a high number of rape cases.

 

Well, yea, for the rapist its just S. Some people are predominantly sadist, others masochist. My point on those stats from NatGeo is that the problem is men are more dangerous when they have emotional issues. Its not that women don't have them, its just that its easier for a man to rape a woman. 

 

Here's the link to that NatGeo article btw in case you're interested, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/10/131007-sexual-violence-rape-teenagers-sociology/

[thomastmc]

You're talking about a man pulling a girl into an alley, but I thought we agreed on the fact that most rape is acquaintance rape and a lot of it happens on dates (date rape) and takes place between people who are romantically involved. At one point the article talks about gang rape situations... but, again, that goes to the same issue. Its not a high number of rape cases.

 

Well, yea, for the rapist its just S. Some people are predominantly sadist, others masochist. My point on those stats from NatGeo is that the problem is men are more dangerous when they have emotional issues. Its not that women don't have them, its just that its easier for a man to rape a woman. 

 

Here's the link to that NatGeo article btw in case you're interested, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/10/131007-sexual-violence-rape-teenagers-sociology/

57% of rapes in colleges happen on a date.

Change my example of an ally to a bathroom.

The study that cited sexual entitlement as the main reason men rape is on rape in general, as a result of studying several cultures randomly. It is about why men rape in general, not about the situation, about the psychology and mind of the rapist. It's not about only colleges, or only teens, or only Ireland, or only people who are drunk, or only people in a romantic relationship.

 

Your last point is absurd... Are you saying that women would be out raping in the same amounts as men if they were just stronger?

 

You have odd beliefs, such as that women would be out there raping men too, if they only could. Men who get drunk and rape a woman are just impulsive and immature. Rapists just have emotional issues. 

 

Have you ever raped a woman? (I ask this because your odd beliefs suggest that you feel sympathy for the rapist)

 

Do understand the differences of male and female psychology, especially where they differ in relation to sex and violence?

 

Do you understand that any man who rapes a woman in any situation is sick, and that it's a violent act that is inexcusable?

[redfish]

Have you ever raped a woman? (I ask this because your odd beliefs suggest that you feel sympathy for the rapist)

 

That says it all. You're making this personal, and emotional. Maybe all people who are against US foreign policy and think military intervention has blowblack are anti-American and are sympathetic to terrorists, also.

[thomastmc]

That says it all. You're making this personal, and emotional. Maybe all people who are against US foreign policy and think military intervention has blowblack are anti-American and are sympathetic to terrorists, also.

 

I didn't mean it to be insulting, but you are sympathetic to the rapist. That suggests that either you or someone you know well is a rapist, or that you feel that rape is just not that bad of thing to do.

 

How you relate diminishing the role and sickness of a rapist, and suggesting that the primary victim of rape would be raping too if they could, with being against foreign policy is befuddling.

[redfish]

I didn't mean it to be insulting, but you are sympathetic to the rapist. That suggests that either you or someone you know well is a rapist, or that you feel that rape is just not that bad of thing to do.

 

How you relate diminishing the role and sickness of a rapist, and suggesting that the primary victim of rape would be raping too if they could, and being against foreign policy is befuddling.

 

No, I neither know someone who is a rapist or feel rape is a good thing. I'm just arguing a different view on how people become rapists, and on how to reduce rape. We have the same goal, we just disagree on the nature of the problem.

 

I don't think the victim would be raping, too. Some women, women who aren't the victims would -- I'm talking about different cases. I'm just underlining I don't think the main issue in rape is a "rape culture" that advantages men over women, like feminists say, and I also don't think it particularly has anything to do with male psychology.