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US: Ceremonies For Dead Soldiers Faked

us dead soldiers ceremonies faked david pakman show

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#16 OP theyarecomingforyou

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:26

And why do you immediately jump to the conclusion that its propaganda? It could simply be for ceremony. You don't realize how much pointless crap the military does it purely for ceremony and tradition.

It depends on the context. In this case I consider towing out a plane that cannot fly, loading it with the bodies of dead soldiers and then unloading them in front of the media to be propaganda, just as I did when coverage of bodies returning from wars was being suppressed by the US government. It's creating a false narrative. Of course it's right to pay respects to the dead, especially those risking their lives in the interests of their country (however misguided), but I don't think it should be about an ostentatious spectacle designed to create a mythos around the armed forces and satiate the inquisitiveness of the general public rather than respect the death of the individual.

 

Some of the coffins might not have any bodies in because they couldn't recover enough of it. Does that make it propaganda too?

I personally dislike the concept of fake coffins but my understanding is that such a decision would be made by the family, meaning that it wouldn't be considered propaganda.
 

Fake planes as offensive as their not using real bullets in a gun salute.

That's done for safety reasons and the pretence isn't to deceive.

 

According to that link, he's on "Free Speech TV" and "The Young Turks Network"... so yeah, it is "some guy"

If you want to dismiss a nationally syndicated television, radio and internet host viewed by millions of people as "some guy" then go ahead but it's disingenuous.




#17 mudslag

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:29

Even the blogger in the video even says that even being symbolic is still acceptable. In the end if this gives closure to some, then how they do it is far less important then the fact that they are doing it. The OP is just posting more garbage anti American rhetoric for the sake of posting it. If this was some daily/weekly/monthly thing published and put out there for the country to see then you might, and I stress might have an argument for it being propaganda. But the fact that these are small ceremonies held for small groups of family and veterans falls more in line with being ceremonial then some propaganda machine.



#18 OP theyarecomingforyou

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:42

Even the blogger in the video even says that even being symbolic is still acceptable.

He isn't a blogger, he's a nationally syndicated television, radio and web host. And that may be his opinion but it isn't mine.

 

If this was some daily/weekly/monthly thing published and put out there for the country to see then you might, and I stress might have an argument for it being propaganda. But the fact that these are small ceremonies held for small groups of family and veterans falls more in line with being ceremonial then some propaganda machine.

Small ceremonies don't involve a 141-ton prop plane. And while not every ceremony will necessarily receive local or national media coverage the reality is that it does play a major role in shaping people's perception of war.



#19 adrynalyne

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:55

He isn't a blogger, he's a nationally syndicated television, radio and web host. And that may be his opinion but it isn't mine.

 

 

Small ceremonies don't involve a 141-ton prop plane. And while not every ceremony will necessarily receive local or national media coverage the reality is that it does play a major role in shaping people's perception of war.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, and we, ours.

 

Don't act like yours is the correct one, because that is purely in the eye of the beholder.  In your case, you take any and every chance to bash the US, so there is no little to no surprise where your opinion lies.  In fact, had they been real, working planes you wouldn't have posted at all, because it wouldn't have suited your agenda.



#20 mudslag

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:57

He isn't a blogger, he's a nationally syndicated television, radio and web host. And that may be his opinion but it isn't mine.

 

 

Small ceremonies don't involve a 141-ton prop plane. And while not every ceremony will necessarily receive local or national media coverage the reality is that it does play a major role in shaping people's perception of war.

 

 

Free Speech TV is meaningless to me, certainly isn't a channel that my cable provider offers. Looking it up it looks more like the old independent UHF stations of the old days, just with updated green screen graphics. So in the end, it's still an advanced glorified blog. 

 

As for the ceremonies, they involve and use what ever those organizers want to use. After all, being a symbolic ceremony would make more sense to make it seems as legit as possible, it's also prob cheaper too. As for perception of war, I would imagine a ceremony that focuses on the dead, sends a pretty damn powerful message to those veterans and the family of lost ones, that war is pretty ######ed up. 



#21 mudslag

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:02

From the article http://msnbcmedia.ms...ceremonies2.pdf

 

Part of the ceremony involves symbolically transferring the recovered remains from an aircraft to a 
vehicle for follow-on transportation to the lab. Many times, static aircraft are used for the ceremonies, as 
operational requirements dictate flight schedules and aircraft availability. This transfer symbolizes the 
arrival of our fallen service members. 
 
It is important to note that recovered remains ceremoniously transferred from the aircraft to the CIL 
vehicle have been in the lab undergoing forensic analysis to determine identity. When remains first arrive 
in Hawaii, JPAC cannot confirm if the remains are those of an American service member. JPAC adheres 
to a strict chain of custody to ensure the integrity of the identification.


#22 OP theyarecomingforyou

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:03

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, and we, ours.

 

Don't act like yours is the correct one, because that is purely in the eye of the beholder.

That wasn't my point. I was simply explaining how I consider it to be propaganda and distasteful. Others are free to disagree and I have always been willing to respond to other people's perspectives, even if I disagree with them.

 

In fact, had they been real, working planes you wouldn't have posted at all, because it wouldn't have suited your agenda.

Had they been real working planes it wouldn't have been a news story.  :rolleyes:



#23 adrynalyne

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:05

That wasn't my point. I was simply explaining how I consider it to be propaganda and distasteful. Others are free to disagree and I have always been willing to respond to other people's perspectives, even if I disagree with them.

 
 

Had they been real working planes it wouldn't have been a news story.  :rolleyes:

THIS isn't news either.

 

Just someone trying to make it out to be something sensational.



#24 mudslag

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:07

And that may be his opinion but it isn't mine.

 

 

So basically you are using the video parts that satisfy your agenda and cherry pick the parts out that don't. Got it. 



#25 McKay

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:12

He isn't a blogger, he's a nationally syndicated television, 

Small ceremonies don't involve a 141-ton prop plane. And while not every ceremony will necessarily receive local or national media coverage the reality is that it does play a major role in shaping people's perception of war.

 

Military ceremonies are measured in scale by the manpower involved. Moving a cargo plane takes 2 guys (Driver and guider) 10-15 minutes and costs nothing. If you've got a tonne of troops marching in a parade then it'll be deemed a big ceremony. Heck they wheel the Lancaster bomber outside in the open on nice days here purely so the plane spotters can gawk at it. They'll wheel fighter jets out to pose for office photos. 

 

After reading up, this entire ceremony is definitely purely for ceremon sake. Tradition, to honour the dead. The bodies having arrived previously and will be sat in forensics to be identified. They have since renamed the ceremony to address any confusion. 

 

The ceremony is there so the padre and high ranking officers can say their thanks all in one place. I feel its highly disrespectful to refer to it as propaganda. 



#26 eblkheart

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:25

Syndicated? Please. Let me know when he lands on a real station with a network that can be measured on a PPM in a top 25 market. Heck, top 50 or so. Public Broadcasting as far as I know isn't measured. Even Disney Radio isn't measured. pffft. Syndicated? HA.



#27 zhangm

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:28

That's done for safety reasons and the pretence isn't to deceive.


Fine. Then a fake plane is safer than a real plane, and probably cheaper. And doesn't incur as high an opportunity cost. And what is deceitful about a fake plane that isn't deceitful about fake bullets in a gun salute? Is the point of the plane to have something there that looks like a plane, or do they expect the dead person to be disappointed that they can't hop in and take it for a joyride?

#28 thomastmc

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:42

It's the thought that counts guys :)



#29 OP theyarecomingforyou

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 08:43

So basically you are using the video parts that satisfy your agenda and cherry pick the parts out that don't. Got it. 

I posted a news story and offered my opinion on it.

 

Military ceremonies are measured in scale by the manpower involved. Moving a cargo plane takes 2 guys (Driver and guider) 10-15 minutes and costs nothing. If you've got a tonne of troops marching in a parade then it'll be deemed a big ceremony. Heck they wheel the Lancaster bomber outside in the open on nice days here purely so the plane spotters can gawk at it. They'll wheel fighter jets out to pose for office photos. 

 

After reading up, this entire ceremony is definitely purely for ceremon sake. Tradition, to honour the dead. The bodies having arrived previously and will be sat in forensics to be identified. They have since renamed the ceremony to address any confusion.

I just don't think it's an appropriate way to honour the dead. It strikes me as rather fake, designed to elicit patriotism rather than respect the individual. It's a pantomime. I can understand and respect colleagues and family members greeting a body as it returns into the country and a ceremony building up around that—given military tradition I would even expect it to be exaggerated to some degree—but not treating a body like a prop in a drama production by loading it on and off a plane for an audience.  :no:



#30 metallithrax

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 08:58

Considering the history of censorship surrounding the return of dead soldiers in the US it is hard to consider it anything but propaganda. Typically ceremonies don't try to pass themselves off as something they're not, they are simply designed to respect the occasion.

 

 

It's vulgar patriotism used to portray the act of killing as a noble profession. No longer are western wars about defending the homeland but about securing economic interests abroad; no longer are people conscripted into service but rather volunteer to join. However, the reason we don't treat soldiers in the same way is because it is utterly tasteless and crass. And when you start with soldiers it's hard to know when to stop, which is why you now see similar displays in the US when it comes to police and firemen.

 

However, I utterly reject the implication that soldiers in the UK are treated with contempt and have to hide their profession in order to avoid getting beaten up. I regularly see soldiers in their uniforms and they are proud of it. The town of Royal Wootton Bassett has long held public gatherings to salute the repatriation of dead servicemen and I have seen nothing but respect for soldiers, though I am aware that some soldiers are occasionally subjected to verbal abuse from people critical of the war (especially Muslims because of the nature of modern conflicts). Whatever disagreements I have over the UK's foreign policy I put aside when it comes to respecting the brave men and women risking their lives for their country.

 

Your comment makes it sound like you don't understand British culture - being low key and reserved is our way of respected soldiers.

 

PS - You should never use the Daily Mail to support your argument if you want to be taken seriously.

 

Well, my nephew was last night when he and his non army mates weren't allowed into a night club because he is in the army.