Alladaskill17 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Not trying to start a flame warm etc, assuming some of you can take it for what its worth and not start a fanboy contest in either direction. Just going to leave this here: Channel9 MSDN While texture tiling has been done in software before, it had certain limitations. By moving it to hardware the limitations were removed. Without going into all the technical details, in short, the benefits of removing these limitations are so impressive that it allows developers to store texture data sizes that previously took up 3GB of RAM in only 16Mb of RAM! Not only does it offer a drastic reduction in size, but it can also allow more detailed worlds than before since now developers have a lot more texture storage available. In addition to textures, and presumably the reason Microsoft prefers to call this partial resident resources, is because this technique can also be applied to other areas such as shadows through shadow mapping. It's demonstrated in the video at 22:40. Pictures and other links, as well as the full explanation can be found at the link above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psionicinversion Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Not trying to start a flame warm etc, assuming some of you can take it for what its worth and not start a fanboy contest in either direction. Just going to leave this here: Channel9 MSDN Pictures and other links, as well as the full explanation can be found at the link above. What games employ this though? or is it done automatically? if so is it worth upgrading to 8.1 if the benefits are better? and if mantle is used instead of the majority of the dx api and is found to be superior where does that leave tile based rendering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo003 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 What games employ this though? or is it done automatically? if so is it worth upgrading to 8.1 if the benefits are better? He meant for X-1 Not windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo003 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Though that does explain MS not spending so much money after GDDR5 and sticking with DDR3 and not going the 699 price point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper11 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Its certainly an informative post. Definitely for the technically inclined that are interested in how these things really work. It sounds like there is potential there, but it requires devs to put in more effort to properly utilize vs the standard methods of development for say a pc. Also, until this can be demonstrated in games, many people will disregard any technical advantage they are talking about. So hopefully MS is working with devs to actually maximize this. It sounds like IW and DICE simply ran out of time to really dig into any features that required extra dev time beyond standard pc development. Will that make a different later on? We will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolol Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 so, that why a certain game can have 1080p native resolution on PS4, but on Xbox One only using 720p unscaled to 1080p ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athernar Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Ah yes, hardware megatextures. Gotta love ol' John Carmack, ahead of the curve again. Thief000 and SecretAgentMan 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacer Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 That is a pretty dramatic difference in texture size. Hopefully it's actually practical to implement. Are there any games that use this technique, today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athernar Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 That is a pretty dramatic difference in texture size. Hopefully it's actually practical to implement. Are there any games that use this technique, today? RAGE, albeit it uses a slower software implementation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psionicinversion Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 He meant for X-1 Not windows. yeah but 11.2 is only in windows 8.1/x1 so would be good to know the impact it may have with the x1 to see if theres going to be big performance increase/texture increase for PC users in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psionicinversion Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 You know what thinking about it im not sure if its going to make all that much difference because yes it gets around the slow bandwidth problem from coupling eSRAM with ddr3 instead of going with GDDR5 but it still needs a decent GPU to push those pixels otherwise itll fall flat on its face or it could use some dynamic resolution scaling for instance the Ryse guy is supposed to be incredibly detailed but maybe the rest of it may not be so detailed freeing up resources, who knows guess we'll found out. If the upscalar is good then might make up for it but thinking ive noticed when a 720p picture gets upscaled to 1080 vs a true 1080 image, its quite bright a bit to sharp and the fluidity of the picture seems a bit wierd but i guess you get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted November 4, 2013 Global Moderator Share Posted November 4, 2013 He meant for X-1 Not windows. It's also useable in Windows 8.1 since it's a part of DX11.2 but not to the extent of the XB1 since there's no eSRAM in PCs. Still, I think it can be used to move things from your normal DDR3 system RAM into the video cards GDDR memory as well? Remember, the idea is to save on needing huge amounts of vram. If you notice newer and newer video cards on the PC are upping the memory as time goes on because newer and newer games need them. Like look at BF4 for example, to run it at it's peak at the best possible gfx quality and highest 1440p res you'll need 4GB of vram. Most cards out there ship with 1-2GB. Thief000 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted November 4, 2013 Global Moderator Share Posted November 4, 2013 That is a pretty dramatic difference in texture size. Hopefully it's actually practical to implement. Are there any games that use this technique, today? Only in software, which is the difference here because hardware will always be the faster solution. Anyways, MS has working tech demos that developers can look at, the rest is them trying to take advantage of. I figure it'll take them a bit more time but once they can get a handle on it, it should make things more interesting. And I'm sure we'll see first party MS games using it if none are right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alladaskill17 Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 I don't think any games use this tech (previously done by software, this is at the hardware level). I believe the linked post points to an engine using this. Thief000 and norseman 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted November 4, 2013 Global Moderator Share Posted November 4, 2013 You know what thinking about it im not sure if its going to make all that much difference because yes it gets around the slow bandwidth problem from coupling eSRAM with ddr3 instead of going with GDDR5 but it still needs a decent GPU to push those pixels otherwise itll fall flat on its face or it could use some dynamic resolution scaling for instance the Ryse guy is supposed to be incredibly detailed but maybe the rest of it may not be so detailed freeing up resources, who knows guess we'll found out. If the upscalar is good then might make up for it but thinking ive noticed when a 720p picture gets upscaled to 1080 vs a true 1080 image, its quite bright a bit to sharp and the fluidity of the picture seems a bit wierd but i guess you get used to it. Since more goes on in a game than just pushing a simple picture at 1080p vs 720p it depends on the developers. This is about having high quality textures with very little impact to RAM and bandwidth and so on. But there's still other things going on that are in memory and being worked on by the GPU and CPU. Developers can gain from this but might decide to use what they've gained in some other area, adding more AI or something else, etc. Like even with PC gaming, depending on your video card, I have a 7870 for example. With newer games like BF4 I could run it at 1080p on high settings or even ultra high but I won't hit 60 frames per second. If i'm fine with 35-45 frames per second then that's ok, but if the developer of the console version wants 60fps locked then they'll cut back on the res to do so and let the upscaler take over. This has been the case with PC gaming for years, as far as I know lots of professional multiplayer gamers will turn down the visuals to gain higher frame rates in matches. norseman 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzdawg Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 That is a pretty dramatic difference in texture size. Hopefully it's actually practical to implement. Are there any games that use this technique, today? yea.. certainly seems a bit too good to be true. obviously this "feature" wasn't utilized for BF4 or Ghosts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted November 5, 2013 Global Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2013 While it's not used yet I expect it to be, the whole reason MS has those custom move engines in the XB1s SoC is for them to move data from the DDR3 into eSRAM and so on. The setup of the hardware seems tailor made to use these techniques in hardware but developers need time to work it all out. Right now, as was the case early on with the 360s eDRAM, I'm sure they're just using it for basic AA in games. I expect the 2nd batch of games we'll see later in 2014 to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thief000 Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 This feature is still in the development fase and I doubt it would have made a difference to boost resolution at this point for the launch games of the Xbox One. We'll see what the future brings though. Looks like going to 1080p on PS4 isn't paying off as numerous reviewers have pointed to large framedrops on the PS4 version of Call of Duty:Ghosts in both the campaign as well as the multiplayer. I wanted to add the URL, but somehow can't (IE11?). Tthe article is on GamePur right now. Thanks blerk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blerk Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 I wanted to add the URL, but somehow can't (IE11?). Tthe article is on GamePur right now. Here is the link Thief000 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.XXIV Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 yea.. certainly seems a bit too good to be true. obviously this "feature" wasn't utilized for BF4 or Ghosts... That's because they're 3rd party developers.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showan Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 People may not like Halo, but I GUARANTEE that, Halo 5 will show almost everything the Xbox One can do in its early life cycle. Sure we have almost a year to wait for this, but if we all know Microsoft, tons of $$$ & resources will be thrown at this to make sure their vision comes to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.XXIV Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 People may not like Halo, but I GUARANTEE that, Halo 5 will show almost everything the Xbox One can do in its early life cycle. Sure we have almost a year to wait for this, but if we all know Microsoft, tons of $$$ & resources will be thrown at this to make sure their vision comes to life. S*** they can like it or not, Halo was the reason Xbox got hot in the first place. I love Halo to death and I better be amazed by Halo 5, nevertheless the TV Series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showan Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 S*** they can like it or not, Halo was the reason Xbox got hot in the first place. I love Halo to death and I better be amazed by Halo 5, nevertheless the TV Series. lol... true that... true that... You already know 343 got a blank check and was told to "Go H.A.M." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alladaskill17 Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 People may not like Halo, but I GUARANTEE that, Halo 5 will show almost everything the Xbox One can do in its early life cycle. Sure we have almost a year to wait for this, but if we all know Microsoft, tons of $$$ & resources will be thrown at this to make sure their vision comes to life. Agreed. I personally believe "Halo" (as its currently marketed) aka Halo 5 will be the most heavily marketed game of the series (& likely any 1st party title from MS) since the original Xbox came around, if not ever. Reasons include the push for the console as it begins forming a decently sized community, will have been out for... a year or so(?) and the beginning of the franchise on the new tech (in addition to 343 getting whatever resources they need to show off the Xbox One's power). Let's not forget the likely spin-off web series, mountain dew/Doritos type marketing, and then good ol' tv commercials. Halo movie? or was that a different MS title, I can't remember. Either way, I truly believe MS will fund whatever 343 requires and will market harder than they do for any hardware they have out (surface, phone, etc). Let's just pray the single player is great and the multiplayer is even better so there isn't a massive drop off of community & players like Halo 4 experienced. Went from something like 70-90k to 15-20k in an incredibly short timeframe. Edit: In my opinion it really speaks volumes to the importance Halo has to Microsoft by not rushing Halo to be a launch title for initial console sales, especially with claims of rushing the hardware a bit to keep pace with a PS4 holiday release. Hopefully this will shine through upon release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showan Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 Xbox One eSRAM + DirectX 11.2, where 32Mb = 6GB <------- If this is true, then...WOW!!!! If not, Oh Well, I guess..... That would make for a nice performance jump... Are these numbers actual (real life tested, on Xbox One) or theoretical?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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