Jump to content



Photo

Possible reversal in Oracle v Google

android google java oracle

  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 Bad Man Duke

Bad Man Duke

    Neowinian

  • 256 posts
  • Joined: 06-August 12
  • Location: Illinois, USA
  • OS: Windows 8.1
  • Phone: Nokia Lumia 920

Posted 04 December 2013 - 19:01

It's being reported that the ruling against Oracle that deemed source code from Java that was copied into Android as not protected by copyright law might be reversed by an appellate court.

 

http://www.reuters.c...E9B30UT20131204

 

 

We might end seeing this one go back to another trial.

 




#2 greenwizard88

greenwizard88

    Neowinian Senior

  • 1,746 posts
  • Joined: 28-November 04

Posted 04 December 2013 - 19:20

Good. The ruling never "felt" right. I don't like the idea that someone can copyright an API, but Google basically made a carbon copy of everything.. It's like if someone copied a painting vs copying a few brush strokes. One is plagiarism, the other is fair use. This sort of allowance already exists in music, I don't see why it can't be applied to APIs too.



#3 OP Bad Man Duke

Bad Man Duke

    Neowinian

  • 256 posts
  • Joined: 06-August 12
  • Location: Illinois, USA
  • OS: Windows 8.1
  • Phone: Nokia Lumia 920

Posted 04 December 2013 - 19:29

I think that was the main sticking point one of the judges asked Google's main council, who did admit they are not allowed to copy their competitor's API's.

 

What I am really curious to see is if Oracle wins, and forces Google to make Android Java compliant (their chief sticking point outside of the other complaints), then how that will effect the apps. Such as platforms that support Java natively (Windows 8 for example), whether those apps will then also work on those platforms.

 

I think that presents a rather intriguing scenario. It sure would make the "app-gap" rather irrelevant, which in my book would be great for consumers.

 

Good. The ruling never "felt" right. I don't like the idea that someone can copyright an API, but Google basically made a carbon copy of everything.. It's like if someone copied a painting vs copying a few brush strokes. One is plagiarism, the other is fair use. This sort of allowance already exists in music, I don't see why it can't be applied to APIs too.



#4 ichi

ichi

    Akihabara Style

  • 4,893 posts
  • Joined: 20-December 04

Posted 05 December 2013 - 00:22

What I am really curious to see is if Oracle wins, and forces Google to make Android Java compliant (their chief sticking point outside of the other complaints), then how that will effect the apps. Such as platforms that support Java natively (Windows 8 for example), whether those apps will then also work on those platforms.

I think that presents a rather intriguing scenario. It sure would make the "app-gap" rather irrelevant, which in my book would be great for consumers.


Java compliant or not, Dalvik is open source. There's nothing stopping anyone from implementing it on any platform (eg. see Sailfish).

#5 vcfan

vcfan

    POP POP RET

  • 4,768 posts
  • Joined: 12-June 11

Posted 05 December 2013 - 00:25

Java compliant or not, Dalvik is open source. There's nothing stopping anyone from implementing it on any platform (eg. see Sailfish).


and there would be nothing stopping oracle from going after them (if they win the ruling) .

#6 ichi

ichi

    Akihabara Style

  • 4,893 posts
  • Joined: 20-December 04

Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:36

and there would be nothing stopping oracle from going after them (if they win the ruling) .


True, but consumers would win the same no matter who wins this case.

At least regarding that "app-gap", because according the EFF everyone would lose big time if APIs are ruled to be copyrightable.

#7 HawkMan

HawkMan

    Neowinian Senior

  • 21,393 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 04
  • Location: Norway
  • Phone: Noka Lumia 1020

Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:11

why would copyrightable API's make everyone lose ? why should another company be able to rip of someone else API instead of making their own ? it's just an API. if you want something established, just use one of the already open ones or license one. 



#8 ichi

ichi

    Akihabara Style

  • 4,893 posts
  • Joined: 20-December 04

Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:59

why would copyrightable API's make everyone lose ? why should another company be able to rip of someone else API instead of making their own ? it's just an API. if you want something established, just use one of the already open ones or license one.


http://m.cnet.com/ne...m/57586990?ds=1

I don't really have an opinion on that but other than Oracle in this specific case, the concept of copyrightable APIs seems to be despised by pretty much everyone in the tech industry.

#9 The_Decryptor

The_Decryptor

    STEAL THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE

  • 19,307 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 02
  • Location: Sol System
  • OS: iSymbian 9.2 SP24.8 Mars Bar

Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:27

why would copyrightable API's make everyone lose ? why should another company be able to rip of someone else API instead of making their own ? it's just an API. if you want something established, just use one of the already open ones or license one.


Like Harmony?

#10 tiagosilva29

tiagosilva29

    You might think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

  • 12,147 posts
  • Joined: 08-May 04
  • Phone: I need a new one. Gibe moni plos

Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:32

Can some one TL;DR or ELI5 the entire argument?



#11 nitins60

nitins60

    Neowinian

  • 493 posts
  • Joined: 20-January 08

Posted 06 December 2013 - 08:37

Can some one TL;DR or ELI5 the entire argument?

In short,

 

Google used Java source code and copied few of the modules and made their own JVM (Dalvik).

Now Oracle claims that, this is equal to copyright infringement since Java is developed under collaboration of many companies as an open source.

 

You can use/distribute Java like you want keeping the original license and information as it's, but what Google did is they made another fork of it and named "Dalvik" and as if they invented Java. This ###### off Oracle and filed lawsuit against Google.

 

If Google loses, well good enough (I want it to), they gonna face serious damages in whole Android system.

If Oracle loses, nothing much, eventually everyone start forking any open source and modify with few changes and show it to world as if they developed from scratch.



#12 ichi

ichi

    Akihabara Style

  • 4,893 posts
  • Joined: 20-December 04

Posted 06 December 2013 - 10:38

In short,

Google used Java source code and copied few of the modules and made their own JVM (Dalvik).
Now Oracle claims that, this is equal to copyright infringement since Java is developed under collaboration of many companies as an open source.

You can use/distribute Java like you want keeping the original license and information as it's, but what Google did is they made another fork of it and named "Dalvik" and as if they invented Java. This ****ed off Oracle and filed lawsuit against Google.

If Google had done that it would be a clear case of copyright infringement and they would have lost the case quickly.

The issue with copyright in this trial is that it's not about copying code (ie. an outright fork) but about APIs.

To put things in perspective, if APIs are finally ruled subject to copyright then Microsoft could sue Wine for it's reimplementation of the Windows libraries, as they are a clear room implementation (the code is completely different from that of Microsoft) but they obviously need to use the same APIs so Windows apps are able to call the Wine libraries' functions and work transparently.

It seems to me that applying copyrights to APIs would be hugely detrimental for the software industry, although on the other hand being an original piece of work the author has (as with any other work) the right to claim rights on it.

Both choices (copyright and no copyrights on APIs) have their tradeoffs.

#13 The_Decryptor

The_Decryptor

    STEAL THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE

  • 19,307 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 02
  • Location: Sol System
  • OS: iSymbian 9.2 SP24.8 Mars Bar

Posted 06 December 2013 - 13:31

Remember that the name "Java" applies to multiple things, the only thing Google claims they use is the language, they explicitly say they don't implement the Java API (They only use a small subset of it from Harmony, and that's for stuff like string manipulation, everything that makes up "Android" is written by Google)

Dalvik isn't a JVM either, it's a compiler that understands the Java syntax, but that's it, nothing else is similar.

#14 tiagosilva29

tiagosilva29

    You might think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

  • 12,147 posts
  • Joined: 08-May 04
  • Phone: I need a new one. Gibe moni plos

Posted 06 December 2013 - 13:34

So whom do you think should win this ######?

#15 BajiRav

BajiRav

    Neowinian Senior

  • 10,520 posts
  • Joined: 15-July 04
  • Location: Xbox, where am I?
  • OS: Windows 8.1, Windows 8
  • Phone: Lumia 920

Posted 06 December 2013 - 13:49

Oracle (I am not their greatest fan or Java's for that matter).