87 posts in this topic

Posted

God forbid Americans go to Holland to celebrate Christmas with St Nicholas and his slaves...

 

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The teacher apologised, end of story. People get wound up over the smallest of things :/.

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Posted

Technically he was Greek. Although born in asia minor, his parents were greek and he was brought up in the greek culture of that region.

 

As far as the ethnicity of constume wearer's is concerned, I can't see what the fuss is. What does it matter the colour of someone's skin, we're all human after all. I'm firmly on the kid's side in this case.

 

Santa Claus is kind of a hodge-podge figure, though, with some roots in St. Nicholas, but also draws a lot from the allegorical figure of "Father Winter," which then evolved into "Father Christmas." Father Winter has pale skin that reddens when drinking, and a stark, snow white beard partly because its evocative of the cold winter season. The red suit of Sinterklaas used to be a fur coat, and he would wear a mistletoe wreath. I don't think its so much about people wanting him to be white.. the symbology wouldn't work as well if he were darker.

 

On the Jesus issue... Western artists after some time began correctly portraying figures in Biblical scenes with darker skin and dark hair .. they tried to get Southern Italian models, since they have darker skin too.. though even in a Biblical scene where every other person there would have darker skin, Jesus' skin would be a bit whiter. I personally would argue that was more about making him radiant than ethnicity. Aryan Jesuses became flat out rejected and seen as silly, after all.

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Posted

"Everyone knows that Santa is your parents. So whatever race they are is the race that Santa is."

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Posted

No, one is a real person, with a real history, and with a real ethnic background. The other is not. St. Nicholas is real, but that's not Santa Claus. St. Nick's giving and who he gave it to didn't translate well, so the sentiment of giving was infused into this mythical character.

 

Real or not is a moot point.  Acting as someone is playing a role.  Both of those roles are based in part upon a look.

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Posted

OK.. In all the history of Santa, show me where Santa is portrayed as black.  Teacher might have been a bit of a pillock, but he was right!

 

 

 

That matters why?

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Posted

Jesus is the colour of whoever happens to worship him. He's White in the West; Christianity is growing in China and if you look at the mosaic art in Church windows in China, Jesus and his disciples are all Chinese.

 

 

 

Kind of like the same with Santa  :whistle:

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Posted

That matters why?

 

Because castigating someone for stating something that was correct, is stupid.

 

Criticize the teacher for telling the kid he couldn't dress up as Santa all you like, but don't go criticizing him for saying something that's true. The mythological figure of Santa, as used in western nations, IS white.

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Posted

I am looking in my crystal ball right now. Do you know what I see?

 

It is the year 2024. Everybody is sitting around in a circle crying and holding each other about absolutely nothing. Little Johnny wants to leave so he can go play Console X with his friend but is informed that his decision might make it look like he does not care, so he stays. Karen has to cough, but she was told that it may be confused for a harsh tone so she holds it back. Hey, at least the community is whole now!

 

Our future is filled with even more whiners than we have today. Can Santa be black? Sure! Did anybody watch WWE Raw yesterday? Mark Henry was Santa!

 

[youtube]http://youtu.be/bdcOm99TNVI[/youtube]

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Posted

Never argued Jesus was blue eyed etc. My problem is he whole use of the term "white" in this context.

Back to Santa, who derived from Sinterklaas. If you trace Sinterklaas back far enough he has a huge number of parallels to the Norse god Odin.

Continue....

 

Oh, there's all sorts of old gods and pagan traditions tied around this time of year.  Jesus wasn't born in December (more likely late summer/early fall), early Christian leaders tied that in with the winter solstice, Saturnalia, Yule, and the Egyptian story of Horus.  

 

Santa is based on Saint Nikolaus, a Greek bishop who lived in what is now Turkey, patron saint of children, who gave coins to those who left their shoes out (among other stories).  Middle Europeans tied him in with Odin and gave us Sinterklaas (who came around on Dec 5th, the eve of the Feast of St. Nicholas), and the English tied that in to their own Father Christmas and moved his feast day to align with Christmas.

 

Ironically, the original "War on Christmas" came from Protestant reformers, and was brought over by the Puritans.  Washington won the Battle of Trenton because the Hessians were busy celebrating a holiday that didn't really go over well in America.

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Posted

what is considered white and what is considered black? Because Saint Nick wasn't "African" which some people seem to consider black to mean African, when it can also mean indian, middle eastern, etc.... but then some people consider middle eastern to not be black but to be more towards "white".... in the end.... who the heck cares... Santa historically has been white or some shade of that, it's the Norman Rockwellish image that we use now days... which has set our image of him in most of the world... but if you live in the north pole for centuries you probably will have lighter skin akin to Nordic people...(not all, but on average Nordic regions are lighter)

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Posted

 Coca Cola + Big Corp = Santa

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Posted

The teacher saw their mistake and got it sorted which is commendable and I think should clear them of any racist rubbish, I doubt the teacher meant it in any form of racist manner and was simply like a few others have stated. In their minds Santa is a white figure and they reacted with that thought. I don't think it's wrong to have an expectation of what a person looks like but you shouldn't base what you think on what that person looks like or like in this case, restrict people based on what they look like. Same as if a girl had asked to play the part!

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Posted

Never argued Jesus was blue eyed etc. My problem is he whole use of the term "white" in this context.

Back to Santa, who derived from Sinterklaas. If you trace Sinterklaas back far enough he has a huge number of parallels to the Norse god Odin.

Continue....

 

That's the origins of one myth. The "whitest" if you will, that you will probably find, if that's your preference. Those opposed to that will point out all Christmas myths are about the birth of Christ and Santa Claus is about St. Nicholas, also Christian origins. Black defensive about it will say everyone traces back to Africa anyway so make up whatever myths you want. While the racist will say, hold on, we're not finished digging yet.

 

In fact, gifting comes from the Christian telling of bringing gifts to honor the birth of Christ, evolved into putting them under the tree. Stuffing stockings actually comes from  St. Nick. He put money in stockings, but prostitutes were involved so that just got morphed into Santa and the Chimney and all that. The sentiment is the same and it was a story of goodness, just maybe not fit for children.

 

Regardless of which myth you identify more with, based on religion, or race if that's a person's particular Agenda, it's all myth. There is no Santa, no St. Nick as the real morphed into the myth for public consumption, there are no flying reindeer, no elves, and no abominable snowman. And like any myth, the teller can change it as they like, and it usually morphs into something derived from "their" personal perspective/experience.

 

However, in none of the myths, was the sentiment of good will or giving used to express the hatefulness and ignorance of racism. It is interjected after the fact by hateful racists looking to feel empowered, be heard, and feel relevant once or twice a year. (if you throw in Easter and Hannnuka*, and I guess three if you toss in Kwanza though that one still baffles me.)

 

In away I respect certain racists. The Texas kind I have some respect for their backbone to stand up on their believes and ideologies no matter how ignorant they may be. They'll tell you, I don't like blacks, or Mexicans, or whatever, don't want you over for dinner and definitely don't want them fucking my daughter. But I'll be happy to do business with you, go 4-whellin', and definitely want your kind on our basketball and football teams. I have some respect for that and can function with them socially just fine. Here it is, this is how I was raised and who I am.

 

Kind of like King Cracker saying he's never seen a black Santa and if he saw one it might destroy his perception of reality and Christmas for years to come. While I don't believe that, Knoxville is that far in the hills and surely he's seen Memphis salvation army bell ringers at some point if not on the local news. But, whatever, I can respect him exposing his beliefs and upbringing, right, wrong or indifferent.

 

Then there's the lowly kind I despise. The cowardly snake in the grass racist that tries to hide their true nature behind feigned intellect and rationalization. They don't have the spine to come out with what they believe in and live with it, they exercise their demons on the down low in a deceptive slithery kind of way. Those are the most heinous racists and I have no respect for them.

 

As for Santa, until I hear a myth that doesn't embody a spirit of good over evil, giving and empathy, I'm alright with all Santas. Though oriental Santas throw my equilibrium off.

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Posted

The teacher saw their mistake and got it sorted which is commendable and I think should clear them of any racist rubbish, I doubt the teacher meant it in any form of racist manner and was simply like a few others have stated. In their minds Santa is a white figure and they reacted with that thought. I don't think it's wrong to have an expectation of what a person looks like but you shouldn't base what you think on what that person looks like or like in this case, restrict people based on what they look like. Same as if a girl had asked to play the part!

 

The incident was racists in its nature, but that doesn't mean the teacher was being racists and I agree, she apologized, has probably expanded her personal knowledge of the subject matter more than she thought she ever would, there doesn't need to be a record of the incident, and they should all proceed on to regular Christmas activities.

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Posted

If you are playing Santa and having kids sit on your lap...then I agree, Santa is portrayed as white.  Kids sitting on a black Santa's lap would start to question why he is black and could ruin the "fun" for kids.

 

Now, if this was just a kid dressing up in a costume...then yea, the teacher was an idiot and should of kept his mouth shut.  Was he racist?  No, just an idiot.

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Posted

come on everybody knows santa is your parents

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Posted

what is considered white and what is considered black? Because Saint Nick wasn't "African" which some people seem to consider black to mean African, when it can also mean indian, middle eastern, etc.... but then some people consider middle eastern to not be black but to be more towards "white".... in the end.... who the heck cares... Santa historically has been white or some shade of that, it's the Norman Rockwellish image that we use now days... which has set our image of him in most of the world... but if you live in the north pole for centuries you probably will have lighter skin akin to Nordic people...(not all, but on average Nordic regions are lighter)

 

There is no black and there is no white as it relates to humans. There's not country "white" or "black" and no language "white" or "black." Keep asking those questions and you will eventually arrive at racism is ignorance and used by specific people, for a specific purpose.

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Posted

If you are playing Santa and having kids sit on your lap...then I agree, Santa is portrayed as white.  Kids sitting on a black Santa's lap would start to question why he is black and could ruin the "fun" for kids.

 

Now, if this was just a kid dressing up in a costume...then yea, the teacher was an idiot and should of kept his mouth shut.  Was he racist?  No, just an idiot.

 

Depends on what their parents have taught them. A parent who has taught their kids in a manner that would make this an issues, would probably not have their kid sitting on a black santas lap. But more often that not, when all grown up, these types of kids choose to sit .... nvm. :D

 

/s

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Posted

what is considered white and what is considered black? Because Saint Nick wasn't "African" which some people seem to consider black to mean African, when it can also mean indian, middle eastern, etc.... but then some people consider middle eastern to not be black but to be more towards "white".... in the end.... who the heck cares... Santa historically has been white or some shade of that, it's the Norman Rockwellish image that we use now days... which has set our image of him in most of the world... but if you live in the north pole for centuries you probably will have lighter skin akin to Nordic people...(not all, but on average Nordic regions are lighter)

 

Yep.

 

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Posted

"Political Correctness is so overblown!" -- I get that.  

 

I live in the southwest and black people are in an extreme minority compared to the rest of the country.  I think that culturally there is a lot of diversity and forward thinking here.  However, if you are a black guy at a store, you are probably the only black guy the staff have seen all day.  That's all I'm saying.

 

Setting political correctness / what-is-and-what-is-not racism issues aside:

 

A child felt picked on by the teacher.  There might be a history of this going on for all we know.  The parents went with their instinct and pulled the kid out of that class room.  Not sure what the other remaining issues are here, exactly...

 

There really doesn't need to be a "racism" component for the parents to be completely justified in their actions IMHO.

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Posted

Regardless of which myth you identify more with, based on religion, or race if that's a person's particular Agenda, it's all myth. There is no Santa, no St. Nick as the real morphed into the myth for public consumption, there are no flying reindeer, no elves, and no abominable snowman. And like any myth, the teller can change it as they like, and it usually morphs into something derived from "their" personal perspective/experience.

 

Bullshit, where do you think they all went after they left Middle Earth, to make cookies?!

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Posted

Why are people so dumb? Does it really matter what color Santa Claus (who doesn't even really exist) is? I won't even get into the whole Jesus thing.

 

When Sarah Palin is looking smart, compared to you.. you have issues.

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Posted

Jesus, a Galilean, came from the Middle East and could very well have been a Caucasian / "white."

 

Nah.  Jesus was from Nazareth.  He was born in Bethlehem and ministered in Galilee.  I lived down the road a bit in Herzliya for several years.  The inhabitants of modern Nazareth are predominately darker skinned (even for Middle Easterners).  I am sure the demographics of the peoples there has changed some over the course of the last 2,000 years, but there is virtually no chance Jesus was white skinned in the way he is depicted in Europe.

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Posted

most dark-skinner hailed from southern African, the hebrew themself was hailed from what today known as iraq.

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