173 posts in this topic

Posted

Metro apps on the desktop isn't default behavior that is too desirable. The desktop just isn't wanted on other devices. I don't want or want to support people trying to use the desktop on their Surface. It's just not going to work, and is the reason Windows 7 tablets failed hard.

 

"Ambrosino also says that Microsoft needs to address another major issue with Windows, and that

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Please - the whole argument from the anti-Modern side is that they should NOT co-exist - that ModernUI should be killed off, in favor of a return to a pointing-device-centric UI (ala Windows 7, which has not gone anywhere).

 

Completely false. The argument has always been for choice, choice the "pro-Modern" crowd have been utterly terrified of.

 

Why not simply go back to Windows 7?  It is still available from Microsoft, and will be supported by Microsoft for another few years.  (I've been pointing that out since the Developer Preview, and so has everyone else that has spoken in favor of - or defended - ModernUI - including Dot Matrix.)

 

If Microsoft made the effort to bring their new API revisions to 7/Vista you might have had an argument here, but they don't.

 

What does Windows 7's Start menu have that NONE of the third-party utilities have?

 

You should not be forced to resort to third party utilities to fix an OS regression, just because some out-of-touch execs got a tad too arrogant.

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Id prolly use Modern apps if I could run them in a window on the desktop. I just dont want to ever, EVER, see that horrendous Metro UI. EVER. Then again theres bugger all good apps out there anyway :/

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Posted

Please - the whole argument from the anti-Modern side is that they should NOT co-exist - that ModernUI should be killed off, in favor of a return to a pointing-device-centric UI (ala Windows 7, which has not gone anywhere).

 

It's more like the Modern UI that has gone nowhere. Windows 7 is the most popular OS in the world.

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Posted

Completely false. The argument has always been for choice, choice the "pro-Modern" crowd have been utterly terrified of.

 

 

The reason I'm afraid of the choice is because of the "it must go" attitude of some of the "anti-Modern" crowd. Choice isn't the problem - it's the fact that for some, that apparently won't be enough.

 

Others having the option to use the menu doesn't bother me. The potential for losing Modern on the desktop, especially the Start Screen, does.

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Posted

and here we go.. 

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Posted

Its starting to feel more and more like Windows 8 is a trial to if a hybrid OS can or can not work. Windows 9 could go in a few directions depending on how Windows 8 usage evolves over the next year or so 

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Posted

Dont see how they cannot make it so the start screen is enabled automatically when used on a tablet/touch device...then defaults to a start menu when used on a desktop.  Software is smart enough to determine what kind of device you are using and auto selects the Start screen or menu.  Then over time when touch devices become the norm, this feature will phase itself out.

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Posted

I sincerely believe that if MS had had two UI Modes (Metro/Normal) with the ability to run Metro apps inside of the desktop, 8 would have taken off.  If they had built on Windows 7, kept the way it looked, and functioned with the new technology in 8.. it would probably be very close to 7 in sales. 

They could have appealed 100% to the desktop crowd by having a Windows 7 esque feel, Start menu, no metro (unless invoked, even then an option to have full screen (immersive) or windowed mode), aero, etc.  Then by having the metro as default for tablets they could have appealed 100% to the metro tablet users, and by having the option to shut it off, work as a valid upgrade for those with W7 tablets.

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Dont see how they cannot make it so the start screen is enabled automatically when used on a tablet/touch device...then defaults to a start menu when used on a desktop.  Software is smart enough to determine what kind of device you are using and auto selects the Start screen or menu.  Then over time when touch devices become the norm, this feature will phase itself out.

I agree, though for lots of things I don't see touch screens becoming the norm... unless everything is voice driven drag and drop mind reading.  I could NEVER write software on a touch screen.  It would be way too tedious and time consuming.  I can obviously type at least 10x as fast on a keyboard as i can on a touch screen.

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I agree, though for lots of things I don't see touch screens becoming the norm... unless everything is voice driven drag and drop mind reading.  I could NEVER write software on a touch screen.  It would be way too tedious and time consuming.  I can obviously type at least 10x as fast on a keyboard as i can on a touch screen.

 

Norm doesnt mean everyone. I am sure there will still be the need for KB/Ms for decades to come.  Just MS abandoned their desktop users which pretty much makes up the vast majority of their users.  Doing something like an auto detect and switch depending on what device you were on would of done wonders.  Or just the ability to go back to the Start Menu, pin Metro apps to the task bar, and minimize metro apps.  Win8 would sales would of been a million times better.

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Posted

Dont see how they cannot make it so the start screen is enabled automatically when used on a tablet/touch device...then defaults to a start menu when used on a desktop.  Software is smart enough to determine what kind of device you are using and auto selects the Start screen or menu.  Then over time when touch devices become the norm, this feature will phase itself out.

 

Especially since Windows already does this in other ways such as enabling and disabling certain settings based on whether the system is a desktop or a laptop.

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Norm doesnt mean everyone. I am sure there will still be the need for KB/Ms for decades to come.  Just MS abandoned their desktop users which pretty much makes up the vast majority of their users.  Doing something like an auto detect and switch depending on what device you were on would of done wonders.  Or just the ability to go back to the Start Menu, pin Metro apps to the task bar, and minimize metro apps.  Win8 would sales would of been a million times better.

I agree, I just didn't agree with phasing it out, as there will likely always be a case where the need for a full fledged non touch UI may be required.

I'm not saying you can't do it on Windows 8.. but it is no where near as efficient in many respects as 7.

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I sincerely believe that if MS had had two UI Modes (Metro/Normal) with the ability to run Metro apps inside of the desktop, 8 would have taken off.  If they had built on Windows 7, kept the way it looked, and functioned with the new technology in 8.. it would probably be very close to 7 in sales. 

They could have appealed 100% to the desktop crowd by having a Windows 7 esque feel, Start menu, no metro (unless invoked, even then an option to have full screen (immersive) or windowed mode), aero, etc.  Then by having the metro as default for tablets they could have appealed 100% to the metro tablet users, and by having the option to shut it off, work as a valid upgrade for those with W7 tablets.

 

I agree. Microsoft has always provided a way in the desktop to keep the old way for legacy users but added the new way for early adopters. People by and large hate change, so why MS just threw all the old out the door this time is beyond me.

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Posted (edited)

Dont see how they cannot make it so the start screen is enabled automatically when used on a tablet/touch device...then defaults to a start menu when used on a desktop.  Software is smart enough to determine what kind of device you are using and auto selects the Start screen or menu.  Then over time when touch devices become the norm, this feature will phase itself out.

Then explain that some of us have no problem with ModernUI as-is - and despite running Windows 8 or 8.1 on ordinary desktop-form-factor hardware?

 

The anti-Modern crowd has insisted, and insisted - and insisted - that ModernUI is unusable on traditional desktops. If that were the case, I would NOT be able to do what I do, on a traditional non-touch-supporting desktop, every day.  Do you think I run Windows 8.1 on a tablet, slate or other touch-supporting hardware?  It isn't hardware, or even ModernUI - if it were, than NOBODY would be able to use it on hardware that doesn't support touch.  The very fact that several of us can - as is - undercuts the entire argument.

 

Notice that I didn't say that ModernUI is not a better fit on hardware that does support touch - in fact, that is something I have distinctly NOT said.  (If anything, after getting the chance to to use Windows 8,1 on such hardware, that would be a silly statement to make.)  However, the seemingly-obvious corollary (that Windows 8.1 is harder to use on traditional-formfactor hardware) is not true - despite the insistence of the anti-Modern crowd.

 

I'm not saying that it won't take massive adjustment - that some folks are simply unable to make at all.  (That is something I have stated categorically since the Developer Preview, in fact.)  But to use a subjective argument in the objective case - even when there is data disputing your postulate, undercuts the postulate you are trying to state in the first place.  (No high-school geometry or algebra student would make a mistake such as that without getting whacked for it by the teacher.)

 

I use a keyboard and mouse with ModernUI every day of the week; I use desktop applications, play desktop-based games, and do lots of desktop-related tasks every day of the week - ModernUI gets in the way of none of it.

 

Efficiency is always in the eye of the user - and I haven't stated otherwise, ever.  However, just because you are so ingrained into the pointing-device-centric UI and UX that is Windows 7 does not mean that is applicable to all users - or even most users - even on traditional hardware.

 

It's not even a Windows-only issue - how many of you run an XBMC-focussed Linux distribution on a home-theater PC?  If so, have you insisted on a pointing-device-centric UX?

 

Choice isn't the issue - what worries us is choice being taken away simply to satisfy a vocal minority based on on a false premise.

Edited by PGHammer
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Posted

Then explain that some of us have no problem with ModernUI as-is - and despite running Windows 8 or 8.1 on ordinary desktop-form-factor hardware?

 

The anti-Modern crowd has insisted, and insisted - and insisted - that ModernUI is unusable on traditional desktops. If that were the case, I would NOT be able to do what i do, on a traditional non-touch-supporting desktop, every day.  Do you think I run Windows 8.1 on a tablet, slate or other touch-supporting hardware?  It isn't hardware, or even ModernUI - if it were, than NOBODY would be able to use it on hardware that doesn't support touch.  The very fact that several of us can - as is - undercuts the entire argument.

 

Notice that I didn't say that ModernUI is not a better fit on hardware that does support touch - in fact, that is something I have distinctly NOT said.  (If anything, after getting the chance to to use Windows 8,1 on such hardware, that would be a silly statement to make.)  However, the seemingly-obvious corollary (that Windows 8.1 is harder to use on traditional-formfactor hardware) is not true - despite the insistence of the anti-Modern crowd.

 

I'm not saying that it won't take massive adjustment - that some folks are simply unable to make at all.  (That is something I have stated categorically since the Developer Preview, in fact.)  But to use a subjective argument in the objective case - even when there is data disputing your postulate, undercuts the postulate you are trying to state in the first place.  (No high-school geometry or algebra student would make a mistake such as that without getting whacked for it by the teacher.)

 

I use a keyboard and mouse with ModernUI every day of the week; I use desktop applications, play desktop-based games, and do lots of desktop-related tasks every day of the week - ModernUI gets in the way of none of it.

 

Efficiency is always in the eye of the user - and I haven't stated otherwise, ever.  However, just because you are so ingrained into the pointing-device-centric UI and UX that is Windows 7 does not mean that is applicable to all users - or even most users - even on traditional hardware.

 

It's not even a Windows-only issue - how many of you run an XBMC-focussed Linux distribution on a home-theater PC?  If so, have you insisted on a pointing-device-centric UX?

 

Choice isn't the issue - what worries us is choice being taken away simply to satisfy a vocal minority based on on a false premise.

 

I never said that people cannot use Win8 as it is.  I said that if they didnt abandon the majority of their users and give them options, then Win8 would or really taken off.

 

And minority?  I wouldnt call those who want the Start Menu option back the minority.  There is no data to back this up at all.

 

You are taking what I said and running wild with it.

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Posted

I agree. Microsoft has always provided a way in the desktop to keep the old way for legacy users but added the new way for early adopters. People by and large hate change, so why MS just threw all the old out the door this time is beyond me.

You state that Microsoft threw out ALL the old - what is the evidence of that?

 

Taskbar pinning is still there - in fact, you can pin to the Taskbar from the StartScreen.  (If a desktop application offers Taskbar pinning on installation, Windows 8 and 8.1 still permit it; Firefox and Google Chrome - two third-party applications - still use this feature.)

 

What is gone from the Taskbar other than the Start menu?  I have seen nary a change in how the Taskbar - or the TaskTray, for that matter - interacts with the desktop OR its applications - compared to Windows 7.  No difference at all.  (Where an application interacted with the Start menu in Windows 7 has changed to the StartScreen in 8 and 8.1 - that is, in fact, the sole change when it comes to installing desktop software.)

 

Basically, it's ALL about Start menu vs. StartScreen - the desktop itself has not changed a whit.

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Then explain that some of us have no problem with ModernUI as-is - and despite running Windows 8 or 8.1 on ordinary desktop-form-factor hardware?

 

The anti-Modern crowd has insisted, and insisted - and insisted - that ModernUI is unusable on traditional desktops. If that were the case, I would NOT be able to do what i do, on a traditional non-touch-supporting desktop, every day.  Do you think I run Windows 8.1 on a tablet, slate or other touch-supporting hardware?  It isn't hardware, or even ModernUI - if it were, than NOBODY would be able to use it on hardware that doesn't support touch.  The very fact that several of us can - as is - undercuts the entire argument.

 

I personally think choice is a good thing. Different strokes for different folks and all that. However, the argument goes both ways. Yes, some on the anti-Modern UI side do go too far in their criticism of the UI, just like many on the Modern UI side berate users of the older UI.

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The reason I'm afraid of the choice is because of the "it must go" attitude of some of the "anti-Modern" crowd. Choice isn't the problem - it's the fact that for some, that apparently won't be enough.

 

Others having the option to use the menu doesn't bother me. The potential for losing Modern on the desktop, especially the Start Screen, does.

 

The "it must go" attitude is a reaction towards the sycophants on the pro side, nothing more.

 

Give people choice and they'll ignore it. Granted, you might find a few old "tweaker" idiots that whine it wastes a cycle every millionth tick, but they're not really worth listening to.

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I never said that people cannot use Win8 as it is.  I said that if they didnt abandon the majority of their users and give them options, then Win8 would or really taken off.

 

And minority?  I wouldnt call those who want the Start Menu option back the minority.  There is no data to back this up at all.

 

You are taking what I said and running wild with it.

techbeck, I said VOCAL minority. Why would a majority stick with an operating system using a control method they cannot stand - especially given all the options to get that preferred method back?

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Metro apps don't make sense on the desktop, because by their nature, they're designed as full screen apps. It would make more sense to bring WinRT to the Desktop, so to "metro-ize" Desktop apps, and be able to download them from the Windows Store. Then, have some apps with full-screen versions -- that run on the Start Screen -- and windowed versions -- that run on the Desktop. You would click some "full screen" button on your Desktop app, and it would automatically bring you to the Start Screen version.

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What is gone from the Taskbar other than the Start menu?  I have seen nary a change in how the Taskbar - or the TaskTray, for that matter - interacts with the desktop OR its applications - compared to Windows 7.  No difference at all.  (Where an application interacted with the Start menu in Windows 7 has changed to the StartScreen in 8 and 8.1 - that is, in fact, the sole change when it comes to installing desktop software.)

 

For your average user the Start Menu is everything. My wife still doesn't know how to pin apps to the taskbar. I set it up for her and she uses it. She is lost without her Start Menu.

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