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#16 +snaphat (Myles Landwehr)

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 07:20

People still use IM? Haven't used an IM client in years, barely use the internal one at work, seems generally pointless these days

In my experience, people in tech related fields (at least engineering) still use internal/external IM quite a lot. It's nice instead of using email for some things -- it's quicker and still asynchronous.




#17 Kami-

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 12:23

I still IRC ;)



#18 Haggis

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 13:08

I still IRC too ;)

 

I use pidgin if i need IM (not eto self: check later if can use skype chat in pidgin)



#19 +Majesticmerc

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 13:34

I use pidgin if i need IM (not eto self: check later if can use skype chat in pidgin)

 

You can't. There are plugins for it, but last time I checked you still needed Skype running in the background for them to work.



#20 n_K

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 15:10

You can't. There are plugins for it, but last time I checked you still needed Skype running in the background for them to work.

But it does work, I've got skype, pidgin, skype4pidgin and a few other extensions running on a headless server via xpra fine.



#21 ViperAFK

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 15:12

People still use IM? Haven't used an IM client in years, barely use the internal one at work, seems generally pointless these days

Tons of people use IM. for example, anyone that uses facebook chat is using IM, whether they want to call it that or not.



#22 cork1958

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 15:30

"True, yet somehow my YM was the first app that I opened at boot and I still do. I have many friends that still use it and I've been using it for many years, so it's hard to "let go"

 

That sounds just like my brother!

 

Only way he knows how to get into his Yahoo mail is to open YIM and get it through that thing!

 

Here we go with another complaint simply based on how something looks! Man, if it works as good as Pidgin or Trllian does, just use it, don't set there staring at it! In fact, why is it even visible, except in the tray?

 

Just think you're trying to get to much out of what has been the way it is since the beginning of time! :)



#23 OP TDT

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 19:14

"True, yet somehow my YM was the first app that I opened at boot and I still do. I have many friends that still use it and I've been using it for many years, so it's hard to "let go"

 

That sounds just like my brother!

 

Only way he knows how to get into his Yahoo mail is to open YIM and get it through that thing!

 

Here we go with another complaint simply based on how something looks! Man, if it works as good as Pidgin or Trllian does, just use it, don't set there staring at it! In fact, why is it even visible, except in the tray?

 

Just think you're trying to get to much out of what has been the way it is since the beginning of time! :)

Except, like I said, it doesn't. Some of the features that I expect from a IM client simply DON'T work, like file transfers, aliases (in my case with Empathy), audio & video call, etc. And somehow I don't think everyone is getting what I'm saying here. I'm simply wondering how is it possible to have such crappy IM clients in Linux (both visual and functional) when there are many other good quality and beautiful apps for this OS (so it CAN be done). This is what I don't get. In the end, yes, I know I have to stick with whatever I get, or use Wine, or whatever, and I already do, with Empathy. But my frustration remains. :)



#24 +snaphat (Myles Landwehr)

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 19:24

Except, like I said, it doesn't. Some of the features that I expect from a IM client simply DON'T work, like file transfers, aliases (in my case with Empathy), audio & video call, etc. And somehow I don't think everyone is getting what I'm saying here. I'm simply wondering how is it possible to have such crappy IM clients in Linux (both visual and functional) when there are many other good quality and beautiful apps for this OS (so it CAN be done). This is what I don't get. In the end, yes, I know I have to stick with whatever I get, or use Wine, or whatever, and I already do, with Empathy. But my frustration remains. :)

Because the official client doesn't run on anything but Windows and none of the 3rd party multi-im clients on any platform have ever worked perfectly or had the same amount of functionality as the official clients per protocol. They all are just built from reverse engineering.



#25 +Majesticmerc

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 19:25

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think Pidgin is quite nice to look at. Nice and standardised. Flashy graphics are nice, but they don't help me chat. I hear what you're saying about missing features, it's definitely frustrating, but you have to consider that most of these clients are designed for multiple message formats, and there's often discrepancies between them. The majority of the IM protocols owned by companies (think, Yahoo, Google, Microsoft) don't release their protocols either, so much of the work is done by reverse engineering, meaning that the unofficial clients can have a hard time working with these proprietary formats.

 

Did you try the YIM web messenger? Not ideal, but I'd imagine that it would be feature complete. Probably the closest you're going to get at the moment. You can try running the client through WINE too, although the Wine website doesn't look promising with regard to running the YIM desktop client (WINE isn't really related to Windows at all, other than the fact that it can read Windows binaries and implements some of the core Windows libraries required for applications to run. There's nothing to say you can't create an application that runs in Wine that doesn't run in Windows).



#26 OP TDT

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 19:34

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think Pidgin is quite nice to look at. Nice and standardised. Flashy graphics are nice, but they don't help me chat. I hear what you're saying about missing features, it's definitely frustrating, but you have to consider that most of these clients are designed for multiple message formats, and there's often discrepancies between them. The majority of the IM protocols owned by companies (think, Yahoo, Google, Microsoft) don't release their protocols either, so much of the work is done by reverse engineering, meaning that the unofficial clients can have a hard time working with these proprietary formats.

 

Did you try the YIM web messenger? Not ideal, but I'd imagine that it would be feature complete. Probably the closest you're going to get at the moment. You can try running the client through WINE too, although the Wine website doesn't look promising with regard to running the YIM desktop client (WINE isn't really related to Windows at all, other than the fact that it can read Windows binaries and implements some of the core Windows libraries required for applications to run. There's nothing to say you can't create an application that runs in Wine that doesn't run in Windows).

Yeah, web messengers are not a solution for me. There's ebuddy, that one I liked, but I hate that it works...well, in a browser window :)

 

I hear what you're saying about the need to reverse engineer those apps, but I wonder how hard can this be, compared to building alternatives for other Windows apps, like Photoshop/GIMP, Sound Forge/Audacity, etc. So if someone can reproduce all these things that Sound Forge, for example, does, like vst plugins, effects, etc., how hard is to create an app that does what a IM client does? I don't know much about how these clients work, so I'm literally asking. And it seems weird that on Windows we have quite a few nice IM clients that support multi-protocol...didn't they have to reverse engineer too, or something like that?  :huh:



#27 Haggis

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 19:44

we wrote an MSN Messenger client in mIRC before it was easy enough once you got the hang of how it worked :)

 

I dont think it would be that hard i mean we already have Pidgin, trillian etc



#28 +snaphat (Myles Landwehr)

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 19:47

Yeah, web messengers are not a solution for me. There's ebuddy, that one I liked, but I hate that it works...well, in a browser window :)

 

I hear what you're saying about the need to reverse engineer those apps, but I wonder how hard can this be, compared to building alternatives for other Windows apps, like Photoshop/GIMP, Sound Forge/Audacity, etc. So if someone can reproduce all these things that Sound Forge, for example, does, like vst plugins, effects, etc., how hard is to create an app that does what a IM client does? I don't know much about how these clients work, so I'm literally asking. And it seems weird that on Windows we have quite a few nice IM clients that support multi-protocol...didn't they have to reverse engineer too, or something like that?  :huh:

It's not hard to create an IM client per-say, but reverse engineering a protocol? That's a huge task. None of those other things you mentioned require reverse engineering anything -- they are just creating apps with similar functionality. I'm not strictly talking about simple IM features, the majority of regular features in those protocols have been well known for the last decade. I'm talking about exotics like voice/video and file transfers.

 

What does Windows offer different from Linux in terms of well-known multi-im clients? Trillian, Digsby, Miranda? Do those offer the voice/video features you are talking about? What multi-IM client are you talking about that's so much better on other platforms?

 

we wrote an MSN Messenger client in mIRC before it was easy enough once you got the hang of how it worked  :)

 

I dont think it would be that hard i mean we already have Pidgin, trillian etc

It's simple with well documented parts of the protocol (parts that have been reverse engineered for more than a decade), the problem is that exotic features are not necessarily well-documented or perhaps reverse engineered at all so 3rd party clients lag in support or simply never get it. The OP is talking mostly about exotic functionality from what I can tell.



#29 OP TDT

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 20:07

It's not hard to create an IM client per-say, but reverse engineering a protocol? That's a huge task. None of those other things you mentioned require reverse engineering anything -- they are just creating apps with similar functionality. I'm not strictly talking about simple IM features, the majority of regular features in those protocols have been well known for the last decade. I'm talking about exotics like voice/video and file transfers.

 

What does Windows offer different from Linux in terms of well-known multi-im clients? Trillian, Digsby, Miranda? Do those offer the voice/video features you are talking about? What multi-IM client are you talking about that's so much better on other platforms?

 

It's simple with well documented parts of the protocol (parts that have been reverse engineered for more than a decade), the problem is that exotic features are not necessarily well-documented or perhaps reverse engineered at all so 3rd party clients lag in support or simply never get it. The OP is talking mostly about exotic functionality from what I can tell.

 

True. But what you call "exotic" I see as common features. Hence my problem. Also, there's the GUI part. I remember that I had Pidgin installed once in Linux Mint and boy was it a pain in the ass to customize! I tried using some script to make it work with Adium themes, but that worked only partially. Also, I had to find the icons & sounds (from YM) that I liked (yeah, I know, I'm a freak) and so on. And even after all this, things were not working as I needed. 

 

I understand what you're saying about the protocols, but how come Digsby, for example, works on Windows, even with these "exotic" features? Or Trillian. I never had file transfer issues, or video call problems with Windows IM clients, so it CAN be done, right? Obviously, Linux is a different platform, so maybe there's that too. I don't know...



#30 +snaphat (Myles Landwehr)

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 20:19

True. But what you call "exotic" I see as common features. Hence my problem. Also, there's the GUI part. I remember that I had Pidgin installed once in Linux Mint and boy was it a pain in the ass to customize! I tried using some script to make it work with Adium themes, but that worked only partially. Also, I had to find the icons & sounds (from YM) that I liked (yeah, I know, I'm a freak) and so on. And even after all this, things were not working as I needed. 

 

I understand what you're saying about the protocols, but how come Digsby, for example, works on Windows, even with these "exotic" features? Or Trillian. I never had file transfer issues, or video call problems with Windows IM clients, so it CAN be done, right? Obviously, Linux is a different platform, so maybe there's that too. I don't know...

Interface wise: matter of opinion.

File-transfer wise: Should be supported, it's something that has been in multi-im clients for years and years. The hardest part is initiating the connection. If both parties are NAT'd then its a requirement to piggy-back through a server instead of a direct connection. More than likely the issues you are having are the fault of the client not falling back to a 3rd party server. It wouldn't exactly be something that I wouldn't have seen before. And this is an issue I had during my own stint as an Miranda-IM dev years ago.

 

It's actually pretty abnormal that Digsby/Trillian have video call support for YIM (and they actually lack in in most of the other protocols they do support). I would chalk it up to the fact that both were made by companies and not only supported by free-time development. Pidgin has video chat, but only in XMPP and that feature was also a pay-for thing when the head developer got monetary compensation to implement it.

 

EDIT: Actually, does Digsby even support it for YIM? I can't find any reference and haven't used Digsby in about 4 years.