Building a ESXi box...

[riahc3]

Hello,

Thank you to both for explaining.

Got the appliciance installed. But like you mentioned, BudMan, if I can edit with Workstation, I really dont need this at all. Good to try out though.

Gotta say, even though Im problably annoying to both of you, this looks like fun :) Got ESXi running and the applicance as well but now cant see thru the applicance a chance to add a VM or anything...will keep investigating...

[+BudMan MVC]

You have to add your host, And you need to hit the web vclient, appliance url just always you to manage the appliance - not the esxi host.

BTW - the cost difference in that other microserver thread compared to your gen8 is drastic.. Since you keep mentioning budget and money I would again suggest you look at older n54 or n40 models for what your doing you do not need the latest and greatest..

Also look into the fan speed noise issue that I saw on reviews for the gen8, here is thread that touches on it

http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/ProLiant-Servers-Netservers/MicroServer-Gen8-is-noisy/td-p/6171563#.Ut-4s7Tnbcs

[n_K]

I thought you couldn't use vCenter appliance without a key (which you need to pay for)?

[+BudMan MVC]

There is a 60 Day trial, that can be reset ;) That is what is being suggested on pretty much every single board you read about how with 5.5 you can not edit the VMs that were upgraded to 10.

But yeah if you want to use vcenter after trial, it is not free, and not cheap either - which puts it out of reach of home users running esxi.. I not sure why vmware is dropping features out of their vclient, whats the point of saying your product is free if you can not manage it without a paid vcenter.

[riahc3]

Hello,

BTW - the cost difference in that other microserver thread compared to your gen8 is drastic.. Since you keep mentioning budget and money I would again suggest you look at older n54 or n40 models for what your doing you do not need the latest and greatest..

I think we mentioned this in thread, right? (too many threads lately here by me, sorry)

The older models bring a AMD processor; Not only am I not a fan of AMD for some odd reason sometimes they do odd things such as this:

https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-confirms-some-older-amd-processors-do-not-support-windows-81

Also some OSs (OS X) are harder to virutalize with AMD.

I perfer to go Intel personally :)

Anyways I want to talk to HP and see what they say/offer....

[]SK[]

But yeah if you want to use vcenter after trial, it is not free, and not cheap either - which puts it out of reach of home users running esxi.. I not sure why vmware is dropping features out of their vclient, whats the point of saying your product is free if you can not manage it without a paid vcenter.

 

Indeed, there are ways around paid software of course *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*

 

I still run 5.1 for this reason. I'm lacking RAM so can't afford to upgrade my 2003 vCentre to 2008 R2 just to run 5.5 with the web client.

[n_K]

My experience of when I tried vCenter ages ago was it was incredibly slow (taking something like 15 minutes for the services to start up after the OS was booted), and it ate RAM, like, 8GB of RAM.

I remember i fiddled with the java command line to reduce it a bit but it really was nothing short of absolutely terrible.

[+BudMan MVC]

"Also some OSs (OS X) are harder to virutalize with AMD."

Says who - I see lots of guides on doing it. I really have no use of any OS X on my esxi box, I have a copy I can boot up on virtual box. But it is used so rarely I would not bother wasting space on my esxi datastore with it.

I just not really that kind of fan boy, they are both major players. They both do what they say they do - I have never in my life seen a issue where software was a problem on what cpu you had.. If that is the case, that is on the software maker to be sure.

As to your link - and what AMD cpus are they talking about? How old are they? I can tell you that I have 8.1 running on my n40l as vm, and its running a AMD Turion II Neo.

You need to get out of the mind set of build it from scratch has to do everything (when your really have no use of everything).. Your buying a already built box to provide a function. In this case esxi to host 2 vms, pfsense and thought your 2012 server.

So where does OS X come into play, where does lack of VT-d come into play, where does USB3 come into play. If you outgrow the box then you buy the next gen, build something better yourself..

I am just not a fan of spending money for features that will not even use.. What scenario do you need usb3 on your esxi, what are you going to do that you need VT-d? What does it matter that it runs AMD, INTEL or CPU X as long as it performs and runs what you want it to run. I can tell you this I have not run into any OS, and I play with lots of them that I cold not run on my esxi box. Be it Windows, Linux or BSD based.. Guess I could look into firing up OS X from one of the many guides out there - but just don't see the need, OS X brings nothing to the table I want currently. Now if needed to validate something, or test something or show someone how to do something in OS X, then I would fire it up. But only mac user in the family other than Ipad you which I have and can show people how to do things is my sister-in-law and she has not had any issues of late where I have had to fire up OS X and send here a screenshot of how to do something - so my copy sits dormant awaiting a need ;)

But do a google - there are many many people running OS X on their microserver boxes in VM, yes on AMD

[n_K]

You can run mac on AMD CPUs but no native mac release will run on them like they run on some intels, you need specific AMD patches applied for them to work.

[+BudMan MVC]

I don't know why he is even looking at the Gen8 to be honest, he keeps bringing up money.. Maybe his location does not have the cashback.. But I show the N54L at 182?

http://www.amazon.es/HP-ProLiant-MicroServer-G7-integrada/dp/B00AHQUX86/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390478833&sr=8-1&keywords=n54l

That is amazon.spain is it not ;)

So at that price, he can buy more memory and his disk he needs for the one that failed in his raid and still be less then what the gen8 was 438,36?

He wants to run his router and his nas off of it, there is no reason to get the gen8 at those costs for what he is doing. So what if its AMD, who cares if it has VT-d or not, etc.

[riahc3]

Hello,

You can run mac on AMD CPUs but no native mac release will run on them like they run on some intels, you need specific AMD patches applied for them to work.

The OS X on AMD was a subcomment. I dont even know why I brought it up :(

 

 

I don't know why he is even looking at the Gen8 to be honest, he keeps bringing up money.. Maybe his location does not have the cashback.. But I show the N54L at 182?

http://www.amazon.es/HP-ProLiant-MicroServer-G7-integrada/dp/B00AHQUX86/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390478833&sr=8-1&keywords=n54l

That is amazon.spain is it not ;)

So at that price, he can buy more memory and his disk he needs for the one that failed in his raid and still be less then what the gen8 was 438,36?

He wants to run his router and his nas off of it, there is no reason to get the gen8 at those costs for what he is doing. So what if its AMD, who cares if it has VT-d or not, etc.

They have the Gen8 too http://www.amazon.es/HP-ProLiant-MicroSvr-G1610T-Non-hot/dp/B00DJVRVFE/ but like you said at over DOUBLE the price which I could get all that you said and then some.

As far as Ive searched, I cant find anywhere on HP's site talking about cashback.

The AMD/Intel argument at the end of the day is preference because like you said, of what I want of the machine, it doesnt really matter......but VT-d? I feel like that can come and bite me in the ass in the future.

Another thing the Gen8 has that lets say the VT-d does indeed come and bite me in the ass in the future; There are processors that can be swapped and upgraded with VT-d, HT, etc. So thats something I like about the Gen8. Makes me feel like if I need something in the future that needs these features (I dont see them being needed maybe ever but) I can upgrade to it...

Its the undecisiveness that kills me. That and the RAM that looks very expensive to upgrade (even to 8GB).

[+BudMan MVC]

Give me a scenario that you would need in VT-d, just one.. In a home setup its moot! Why would your vm need direct access to hardware in your host? Keep in mind the expansion slots are very limited in any of these models.

Your talking a box that is 200 vs almost 500.. For what you need to day the 200? makes way more sense, in the future when - year, 2? When you run into something that the N54L does not allow for that you want to do, then most likely the gen8 model that does it will be 200?, so 200+200 is less than the 500 your going to spend today ;) Because the gen9 or 10 models will be what is shiny and new ;)

Now you will have a N54L and a Gen8 for less then what you would spend today on the gen8 just so you can say you have features that you have no use of ;)

I can understand wavering when you talking about spending like almost 800?, but do what you want your more in the 400? range - so pull the trigger and start playing vs thinking about how much money the fancy new gen8 cost ;)

[riahc3]

Hello,

Give me a scenario that you would need in VT-d, just one.. In a home setup its moot!

http://thehomeserverblog.com/esxi/esxi-5-0-amd-whitebox-server-for-500-with-passthrough-iommu/ (Link is down right now)

This looked intresting....he used ESXi to make several machines for his family including one that can do gaming!

I mean thats not the purpose of this of course but...its about the futureproofing thing Im so obsessed about.

Why would your vm need direct access to hardware in your host? Keep in mind the expansion slots are very limited in any of these models.

I made this thread comparing prebuilts vs DIY thinking of the link that I put but like you said models have very few expansion space...

Your talking a box that is 200 vs almost 500.. For what you need to day the 200? makes way more sense,

Right. Totally agree with you.

so pull the trigger and start playing vs thinking about how much money the fancy new gen8 cost ;)

No, Ill start thinking the next thread Ill make when Im having problems with it :laugh:

A quick update: Im still waiting for "extra money" (legal issue as you know) which hasnt come in yet AFAIK.

[+BudMan MVC]

That and the RAM that looks very expensive to upgrade (even to 8GB).

Well Ram has gone up it seems.. When I bought my N40L back in Mar 2012, the memory was only $42 for 8GB..

Here is what I got

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148347

Now they want $84 for it ;)

I keep looking at moving to 16GB, but can not find anything for less than $120, which I currently can not justify since machines I run 24/7/365 are not using 8.. And the only thing putting me close to 8 is vcenter that is using 3 that I have no real need to run.

[n_K]

Lol PCI passthrough for GFX cards, good luck with that.

Most non-quadro NVIDIA cards set to passthrough will cause your system to be incredibly unstable and won't work with your VM (And supported quadro cards will probably cost you more than ?500)

Not sure about ATI cards but I'd assume pretty much the same.

[riahc3]

Hello,

Give me a scenario that you would need in VT-d, just one.. In a home setup its moot!

Another thing Ive read that without VT-d, file transfers suffer (up to 20MB max).

Now Im not sure if that would be a bottleneck when streaming to 802.11n devices. Im not sure BudMan...

Also, when my users log onto the domain, and all their settings/profile/files/etc are loaded, wouldnt this give them considerable lag?

Thank you for your answers BudMan (and anyone else)

[+BudMan MVC]

"Another thing Ive read that without VT-d, file transfers suffer (up to 20MB max)."

Pure and Utter GIBBERISH!! Where did you read that nonsense - I can assure I move 70+MBps to and from my VM nas all the time, I normally don't really pay attention since transfers of even multi gig files are so fast doesn't really matter.

Now that I can tell you is that if you run your vmkern on the same nic as your lan that your other vms and vswitches connect to that do and from the datastore can take a hit.

[riahc3]

Hello,

Now that I can tell you is that if you run your vmkern on the same nic as your lan that your other vms and vswitches connect to that do and from the datastore can take a hit.

So then ideal I need 2 LAN cards? Excluding vt-d, one exclusive for running WS2012R2 (NAS OS) and another with pfsense and any other VM I choose to run in the future.

[riahc3]

Hello,

Gen8 391,71 ? (excluding shipping)

Kingston 8GB 86,59 ? (also excluding shipping)

I have a (actually 3) 320GB 3.5" that I will use as the drive for OS.

Total (excluding shipping) 478,30?

Well, I mean its not that bad for what I expected...

[n_K]

Just checked, ?480 for that (about ?400) seems incredibly overpriced, I mean, that is rediculous.

Before you buy it, look on ebay spain and see if anyones selling a second hand server (dell or HP) with similar specs for cheaper.. Over here you can now pick up dell poweredge 2950's for ~?200, proper rackmount servers with dual xeon sockets...

[ndoggfromhell]

Hello,

So then ideal I need 2 LAN cards? Excluding vt-d, one exclusive for running WS2012R2 (NAS OS) and another with pfsense and any other VM I choose to run in the future.

 

A single dual port card, get something from a decent respected brand like Intel, not Syba.  Use one port as your outside network, the other port for your inside network.  Port on the Microcenter would stay internal, possibly a way to use it as a DMZ port with all the other VM's using the inside network port on the add-on nic.  

[+BudMan MVC]

No you don't really need 2 lan cards on the lan side, I said it takes a hit not that it was unusable.. You rarely need to move things to and from your datastore anyway.. You might upload your ISO to install your VM OS, that is a one time move - who cares if it takes a few minutes longer, etc.

All your vms that connect to your lan can share the same vswitch and lan nic, but there were lots of thread here about slower transfer to the datastore on the microservers with esxi. When I broke out my vmkern to another nic that hit went away

As to proper rackmount servers - I doubt he has a RACK in his house ;)

BTW here is a test i just did otherday in a PM pulling a file off my VM Nas.. Does that look like 20MBps max to you ;)

But yes if your going to want to use pfsense on your microserver you need 2 nics, one for wan, one for lan. On my N40L, I have a single port nic added, and then a dual port. I can dig up the model numbers for you if you want. So I have 4 total nics in mine.. But doesn't the gen8 have dual out of the box?

edit; Here is the dual nic I got

http://www.amazon.com/HP-Express-Gigabit-Adapter-412648-B21/dp/B0071TXD98/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1390573783&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=HP+412648-B21+NC360T+PCI-Express+DP+GigaBit+Adapter

You can email them and make sure you get the low profile version

The single I got was this one

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833106036

[+LogicalApex MVC]

As to proper rackmount servers - I doubt he has a RACK in his house ;)

You don't need a rack to house a rackmount server in a home setup. I run a 2U Lenovo server for my ESXi box mainly because I wanted something on the HCL along with 100% headless support.

[+Fahim S. MVC]

But yes if your going to want to use pfsense on your microserver you need 2 nics, one for wan, one for lan. 

 

Not entirely true is this? A smart switch and some VLANs would do the same thing with a single NIC

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Not entirely true is this? A smart switch and some VLANs would do the same thing with a single NIC

The cost of a smart switch with proper VLAN support would exceed just buying another NIC card usually.