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#61 vetDirtyLarry

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 00:56

From what I can tell the xbox approach is more software optimisation as opposed to the PS4's hardware grunt, so it makes absolute sense that devs need to learn these optimisation tricks whereas the grunt on the PS4 is just there.

 

The thing is when the devs do start to use the tricks properly they should open up more options for getting games running better, faster etc, whereas on the PS4 that power cant really be enhanced upon.

 

And I'm not talking about your standard optimisations here, there is some clever **** going on with the xbox that needs to be used for it to be a benefit. Both systems will see optimisations but the xbox has more potential in this respect.

 

Just the way I understand things folks.

The PS4's power cannot be improved upon? Really?

So developers have already reached the full potential of the PS4, but they have not reached the full potential of the XBox One yet?
Is this seriously what you are trying to say is the truth of the situation?
That somehow one system is an open book and the other is a complete mystery? I ask again, is this truly what you are saying?

If this was how game development worked, the PS3 should have been capable of some of the most amazing graphics ever known to man, as it was definitely much harder to develop for than the 360 was and was much more complex.

Yet that was not the case.

So let me offer a bit more plausible scenario...
We are already seeing what is going to be the dominant trend throughout the entire duration of this generation.
Does this mean that the XBox One will not be capable of better performance as time goes on? Absolutely not. I am positive as time goes on some more tricks and optimizations will be found.
However, the exact same can also be said of PS4 development. Developers will continue to discover better and more efficient ways to develop on it, so it too will continue to improve.

As an owner of both systems I sure hope they do eventually hit 1080p and 60 fps on the One, however I am not holding my breath on this fact based on what we are already seeing. And I am vary confident in saying as I already have that the trend we are seeing now will continue, and the PS4 will be the dominant platform from a technical specifications perspective. This seems to be pretty clear by this point in time. 
By all means feel free to quote this reply if and when I am proven wrong and a multiplatform title is in fact better in all regards on the One. I just never see it happen. Hopefully they one day become equal to their PS4 offerings, but even that I am not holding my breath on, however I do not have any vested interest if they never do, as I have the option of playing those titles on the PS4, so I tend to view things how they are, not how I hope they will be.




#62 Asmodai

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 00:58

Television sets are moving towards 4K and one of the Next Gen consoles that just came out can't do 1080p?  If this is true it's not good news for Microsoft.

Television manufacturers are trying to push 4k. I personally think it's going to fail even worse then 3D did though. There is no content for 4k. Broadcast TV isn't even 1080p, it's either 720p or 1080i and shows no signs of changing anytime soon. As you say the latest consoles can barely do 1080p they certainly aren't going to be doing 4k. 1080p streamed from Netflix while good is noticeably worse then 1080p off a Blu-Ray disc due to compression. Streaming 4k is going to be even worse. Even with new compression (which there is little hardware to support) it would make more sense to use that new compression to transfer 1080p in better quality to rival Blu-Ray then to use heavy lossy compression on even higher resolutions. As for hardware people are slow enough to adopt Blu-Ray they aren't going to run out and buy BDXL players with HEVC compression and new HDMI 2.0 cables. Again consoles don't support any of this new tech so odds are thing are going to stay 1080p or worse for a while now despite what TV manufacturers might want. If it was up to them we'd all be buying new TVs every year.

#63 Enron

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:03

Television manufacturers are trying to push 4k. I personally think it's going to fail even worse then 3D did though. There is no content for 4k. Broadcast TV isn't even 1080p, it's either 720p or 1080i and shows no signs of changing anytime soon. As you say the latest consoles can barely do 1080p they certainly aren't going to be doing 4k. 1080p streamed from Netflix while good is noticeably worse then 1080p off a Blu-Ray disc due to compression. Streaming 4k is going to be even worse. Even with new compression (which there is little hardware to support) it would make more sense to use that new compression to transfer 1080p in better quality to rival Blu-Ray then to use heavy lossy compression on even higher resolutions. As for hardware people are slow enough to adopt Blu-Ray they aren't going to run out and buy BDXL players with HEVC compression and new HDMI 2.0 cables. Again consoles don't support any of this new tech so odds are thing are going to stay 1080p or worse for a while now despite what TV manufacturers might want. If it was up to them we'd all be buying new TVs every year.

 

Mainstream 4K is still at least 4 years off.

 

The early adopters are hardly there yet. As you said, there's no content yet (1080p had the same problem for years) and even with a $2000 PC you're probably not going to get 60fps ultra quality in a 4K game today.



#64 Andrew

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:06

Television manufacturers are trying to push 4k. I personally think it's going to fail even worse then 3D did though. There is no content for 4k. Broadcast TV isn't even 1080p, it's either 720p or 1080i and shows no signs of changing anytime soon. As you say the latest consoles can barely do 1080p they certainly aren't going to be doing 4k. 1080p streamed from Netflix while good is noticeably worse then 1080p off a Blu-Ray disc due to compression. Streaming 4k is going to be even worse. Even with new compression (which there is little hardware to support) it would make more sense to use that new compression to transfer 1080p in better quality to rival Blu-Ray then to use heavy lossy compression on even higher resolutions. As for hardware people are slow enough to adopt Blu-Ray they aren't going to run out and buy BDXL players with HEVC compression and new HDMI 2.0 cables. Again consoles don't support any of this new tech so odds are thing are going to stay 1080p or worse for a while now despite what TV manufacturers might want. If it was up to them we'd all be buying new TVs every year.

 

4K and even 8K are not some gimmick like 3D is, they are both just natural progression of resolution. It might not happen any time soon, but there is no doubt it will become a widespread standard one day, just as 720/1080 did. If broadcasting hardware were capable, do you not think we'd all be watching in 1080p right now? Of course we would. The content will follow when it's time. Plus, there is no harm in introducing the TVs now to fund the roll out. It's just like "HD Ready" TVs in 2004/5. You might not have the final spec, but it's all connected and progresses the tech.

 

Streaming will take even longer because that infrastructure is even more of a mess than TV, but it will arrive one day.



#65 Andre S.

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:08

So, now, where are the folks defending that the Xbox One so trounced the PS4 in CPU optimizations that it made up for a 50% deficit in shaders? How many games running at a lower resolution or framerate on Xbox One will it take to close the debate? http://ca.ign.com/wi..._and_Framerates

 

Some quick statistics from that table, for games for which we have data:

 

90% of games on PS4 are 1080p, versus 50% on Xbox One

67% of games on PS4 are 60fps, versus 46% on Xbox One



#66 ctebah

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:12

Television manufacturers are trying to push 4k. I personally think it's going to fail even worse then 3D did though. There is no content for 4k. Broadcast TV isn't even 1080p, it's either 720p or 1080i and shows no signs of changing anytime soon. As you say the latest consoles can barely do 1080p they certainly aren't going to be doing 4k. 1080p streamed from Netflix while good is noticeably worse then 1080p off a Blu-Ray disc due to compression. Streaming 4k is going to be even worse. Even with new compression (which there is little hardware to support) it would make more sense to use that new compression to transfer 1080p in better quality to rival Blu-Ray then to use heavy lossy compression on even higher resolutions. As for hardware people are slow enough to adopt Blu-Ray they aren't going to run out and buy BDXL players with HEVC compression and new HDMI 2.0 cables. Again consoles don't support any of this new tech so odds are thing are going to stay 1080p or worse for a while now despite what TV manufacturers might want. If it was up to them we'd all be buying new TVs every year.

 

3D was an addition to a currently used resolution.  4K is a new resolution.  There are compression technologies capable of delivering 4K to consumers.  It will take some time but it's going to be sooner than you might think.



#67 dead.cell

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:13

So, now, where are the folks defending that the Xbox One so trounced the PS4 in CPU optimizations that it made up for a 50% deficit in shaders? How many games running at a lower resolution or framerate on Xbox One will it take to close the debate? http://ca.ign.com/wi..._and_Framerates

I just wish they could be right about the systems being on par and not making a difference. Everything we've seen so far has proven otherwise... :/



#68 Asmodai

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:14

Mainstream 4K is still at least 4 years off.
 
The early adopters are hardly there yet. As you said, there's no content yet (1080p had the same problem for years) and even with a $2000 PC you're probably not going to get 60fps ultra quality in a 4K game today.

This is much worse than the move to 1080p. 1080p had the DVD->Blu-Ray move, right now there is no shift in the movie industry to a new disc based media format, heck they move to Blu-Ray isn't even done yet it's too soon for another one. Blu-Ray had a console supporting it, the PS3. Sure it may have really hurt Sony in the console war to put a Blu-ray drive in the PS3 but it did help establish Blu-Ray as the 1080p format standard. I don't believe the PS4 or Xbone has a new disc format beyond blu-Ray, they don't have HDMI 2.0, they don't have full hardware support for HEVC decoding (like they do for H.264). People are still upgrading old 720p or even tube TVs to 1080p, some are just now buying their first Blu-Ray player (maybe it's even the xbone) they aren't going to move to another setup anytime soon. 1080p is going to be the standard for a long time, way more than 4 years IMHO, 4k is a pipe dream by manufacturers. 4k will become mainstream on computers before it hits TVs and as you said you have to throw a ton of money into a PC today to be able to drive 4k graphics at 60fps on Ultra... 4k is a LONG way off.

#69 Andrew

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:17

This is much worse than the move to 1080p. 1080p had the DVD->Blu-Ray move, right now there is no shift in the movie industry to a new disc based media format, heck they move to Blu-Ray isn't even done yet it's too soon for another one. Blu-Ray had a console supporting it, the PS3. Sure it may have really hurt Sony in the console war to put a Blu-ray drive in the PS3 but it did help establish Blu-Ray as the 1080p format standard. I don't believe the PS4 or Xbone has a new disc format beyond blu-Ray, they don't have HDMI 2.0, they don't have full hardware support for HEVC decoding (like they do for H.264). People are still upgrading old 720p or even tube TVs to 1080p, some are just now buying their first Blu-Ray player (maybe it's even the xbone) they aren't going to move to another setup anytime soon. 1080p is going to be the standard for a long time, way more than 4 years IMHO, 4k is a pipe dream by manufacturers. 4k will become mainstream on computers before it hits TVs and as you said you have to throw a ton of money into a PC today to be able to drive 4k graphics at 60fps on Ultra... 4k is a LONG way off.

 

Yes there is? In fact there are several. None of them final or agreed upon yet, but there has been talks of BRs successor since before BR even rolled out.



#70 Asmodai

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:24

4K and even 8K are not some gimmick like 3D is, they are both just natural progression of resolution. It might not happen any time soon, but there is no doubt it will become a widespread standard one day, just as 720/1080 did. If broadcasting hardware were capable, do you not think we'd all be watching in 1080p right now? Of course we would. The content will follow when it's time. Plus, there is no harm in introducing the TVs now to fund the roll out. It's just like "HD Ready" TVs in 2004/5. You might not have the final spec, but it's all connected and progresses the tech.
 
Streaming will take even longer because that infrastructure is even more of a mess than TV, but it will arrive one day.

4K NOW is totally a gimmick, that's my point. It's not going to happen anytime soon. I'm not saying there will NEVER be another resolution beyond 1080p. Maybe it will be 4k, maybe the mainstream will skip that and go strait to 8k or something else entirely. If you buy a 4k TV right now you will almost certainly be in the market for a new TV before 4k content is the mainstream. Movie companies aren't going to re-release all their movies at every incremental resolution. Steaming can't handle 1080p as well as Blu-Ray yet so lets focus on improving that before we go bumping up the resolution. Even the bleeding edge hardcore gamer who spends a fortune of his gaming rig probably isn't playing at 4k@60fps on Ultra, game developers certainly aren't targeting that as a primary audience. TVs content will lag behind gamers and gamers aren't even there yet.

#71 ctebah

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:28

So, now, where are the folks defending that the Xbox One so trounced the PS4 in CPU optimizations that it made up for a 50% deficit in shaders? How many games running at a lower resolution or framerate on Xbox One will it take to close the debate? http://ca.ign.com/wi..._and_Framerates

 

All the 1080p PS4 titles are running native, not upscaled.  On the Xbox One, some are upscaled.  When it comes to image quality and game capabilities, PS4 is clearly superior...



#72 Asmodai

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:35

Yes there is? In fact there are several. None of them final or agreed upon yet, but there has been talks of BRs successor since before BR even rolled out.

"None of them final or agreed upon yet"

Perhaps I was unclear. By shift I mean like the shift from DVD to Blu-Ray. Consumers actively going out and buying one in place of the other. Movie companies shifting from releasing their movies on DVD to Blu-Ray. Hardware companies and Compression working groups are ALWAYS taking about what the next thing is going to be, that's what they do. Until there are standards finalized and agreed upon, companies producing product and consumers buying it then there isn't a switch actively going on. Heck there may not be another disc based format, maybe everyone will go to streaming, maybe these companies will not be able to agree and we'll have a whole new HDDVD vs. Blu-Ray like format battle, who knows. Whatever happens it's probably going to take longer then the average life expectancy of a new flat screen so buying 4k now is a waste.

#73 LaP

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:02

Could be, although we don't know what is needed to take advantage fully.


Well unless I'm mistaken the GameCube had fast embedded memory too. No dev actually used it for multiplatform titles only games like Metroid prime or Re 4 and such used it.

#74 trooper11

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:06

As an owner of both systems I sure hope they do eventually hit 1080p and 60 fps on the One, however I am not holding my breath on this fact based on what we are already seeing. And I am vary confident in saying as I already have that the trend we are seeing now will continue, and the PS4 will be the dominant platform from a technical specifications perspective. This seems to be pretty clear by this point in time.


It seems to me that every new generation we see the same thing that games can improve greatly from launch as the years go by.

I know that this time is a little different since both consoles are x86 system and more like a pc, but if you do believe that both will improve overtime, why then assume X1 games won't get to that point? I do agree with you that it looks pretty clear that the ps4 has the tech lead, but the question is whether developers will be able to hit the 1080p/60 levels in great numbers on the X1 as it goes along.

 

So, now, where are the folks defending that the Xbox One so trounced the PS4 in CPU optimizations that it made up for a 50% deficit in shaders? How many games running at a lower resolution or framerate on Xbox One will it take to close the debate? http://ca.ign.com/wi..._and_Framerates
 
Some quick statistics from that table, for games for which we have data:
 
90% of games on PS4 are 1080p, versus 50% on Xbox One
67% of games on PS4 are 60fps, versus 46% on Xbox One

 
Your as bad as those you are attempting to bash honestly.

What's the point? Rub it in their faces?

You make it sound like your team won or something :laugh:


I just wish they could be right about the systems being on par and not making a difference. Everything we've seen so far has proven otherwise... :/


At some point, you just have to accept the fact that the ps4 could have the better multiplatform titles this gen as the 360 did last gen. If the ps4 is to be the new lead console, then your also likely to see poor ports and rushed ports on the X1, again like last gen.

It shouldn't change whether you like the exclusive titles that both systems offer. If you want the X1 exclusives, your still going to want an X1. Exclusives are also likely to be the titles that look the best on both systems. So, if you ended up with both systems last gen, then that will probably happen this gen as well unless you have no interest in the exclusives, etc.

All the 1080p PS4 titles are running native, not upscaled.  On the Xbox One, some are upscaled.  When it comes to image quality and game capabilities, PS4 is clearly superior...[/size]


That's incorrect. BF4 runs at 900p on the PS4. I don't know any others that are doing that, although AC4 was until they patched it. I don't think BF4 has been patched.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but not all ps4 titles are going to be 1080p/60. Your certainly right that more of them will be compared to the X1 at least right now. I'm not sure what you mean by 'game capabilities', but it seems clear right now that the ps4 hardware has a nice lead.

#75 trooper11

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:13

Well unless I'm mistaken the GameCube had fast embedded memory too. No dev actually used it for multiplatform titles only games like Metroid prime or Re 4 and such used it.


I'm not sure why people forget their history so quickly. Just look at last gen.

How many multiplatform games either got poor ports or simply worse versions on the ps3? In some cases it was a lack of performance where a developer wanted it, but in many cases it was also the lack of interest in optimizing for the console. The 360 was the lead console for these ports and it was considered easier to develop on.

Today, we see things have flipped at least for now. The ps4 is the lead console and its considered easier to develop on. The X1 is now the one struggling in comparisons thanks to hardware issues and optimizations issues. The only question is if the rest of last gen repeats itself this gen.