Thoughts: Windows 8.1 Update 1 looks worse than ever before...

[theyarecomingforyou]

I couldn't disagree more. The Metro app switcher is an important part of the Windows 8 design. The taskbar is by no means, touch friendly. The icons in the system tray are too tiny, and so are the jumplists.

The Metro Switcher might be an important part of Windows 8?though I personally disagree with that assessment?but that doesn't mean it should be part of Windows 9 - in fact it's telling that Microsoft is trying to move on from Windows 8 as quickly as possible. Even in this update we see Microsoft moving away from the Metro Switcher. It wasn't an improvement on the taskbar, especially not for desktop users.

 

As I said, I'm not opposed to changes being made to the taskbar to make it a better all round tool but I despise the Metro Switcher and don't see how it could be improved.

[Knife Party]

Its going to make me laugh if people who hate this trigger the taskbar as much as charms bar haters trigger the charms bar by accident.

this is pretty much the same thing. When metro came out initially and poeple raised the charms bar issue they were told by avid fanboys that:

 

1. they should learn to accept change

2. stop being "Traditional" about their usage patterns

3. stop clinging onto the mouse and kb

4. MS knows the vision and principles of Metro and all the changes are a "breathe of fresh air".

 

What do we have in reality now? A well know Metro fanboy complaining about changes he doesn't like because the metro bubble has burst. MS, you truly define the concept backpedalling

[LimeMaster]

Read the disclaimer and how it works pages for the whatdoestheinternetthink think website. There are obvious issues: for example: how do you accurately measure positivity vs negativity using sentence structure, how do you guarantee that the results that come from the queries represent what you think they represent, how do you guarantee that you are even using the right queries to capture the desired information, how do you account for disparity in discussion or reporting of negativity vs positivity, how do measure the accuracy/reliability/precision of an undisclosed unvetted algorithm, etc. Even aggregations of simple review ratings have to be done in a very specific way to avoid skew and accuracy issues. A have a loaded question: would you'd trust the election of officials based on this website's algorithm? I wouldn't  :laugh:

 

I'm not creating a poll because it is going to suffer from some of the issues I've mentioned in my previous posts. I can't well rely on results that sample neowin and then try to extrapolate those as an accurate representation of the general consensus on the Modern UI. I would just be being hypocritical and misleading if I did that. The best I could do is try for a Neowin specific conclusion.

 

But as I already said, I don't care to "settle" or prove this either way, my only purpose here was to dispel the flawed use of polls and other things that were being used to draw the conclusions noted in this thread.

 

EDIT all: warwagon created a poll, but let's be sure to consider it in an appropriate context.

No, but it is better than warwagon's version. Also, are you saying that it's wrong about the results for Justin Bieber? :o Well, where do we create the poll if that's an issue? :laugh:

 

And my purpose was to show that there are a lot of people who actually like the modern Ul. So.. flawed, or not, these polls were still a good indication of that. Even warwagon's poll shows this as over 200 people voted no to the return of the start menu.  :) Obliviously at the end of the day, Windows 9 will give people the choice of whether they want to use the start menu or the modern Ul, which will be good as it'll end the debate as no-one can really complain if they have a choice.

[Atlantico]

For me, this merging-style looks cheap. I like metro (or modern ui) and I like desktop. And I like it how it is in Win 8-8.1. I know it was strange for weeks but now after ~2years I got used to it and I have no problems with it. Now they making these things and somehow I'm losing the excitement for Windows. Ofcourse if they fix a bunch of things(make rightclick menus look to match with other menus, don't make titlebar popup on app opening, etc.), then it would be better. I know it's not done yet, but you know... it's microsoft and they don't really care for those little thing to make everything perfect. Just look the window border bug on show desktop hover. Or the 20-30 year old icons.... So I think Windows is getting more and more messed up. They need to make a nearly brand new OS like Apple did with OSX after OS9. Clean all the messy old code and make Windows clean and fresh. I'm waiting for that... patiently :D Maybe Windows 10... Or Windows X? :p

I concur. This "update" seems very inelegant and poorly thought through. It seems like MS is just going to hammer the two UIs together and duct tape whatever elements that are loose. It seems like a shoddy job and curiously so. I realize that a lot of the top people that made Windows 8 and 8.1 have moved on, but they were not alone in making Windows 8. What are the talented people doing?

 

Further, while the desktop isn't dying there's no doubt that MS needs the tablets and touch interface to survive into the future. They are competing with the UI of iOS and Android, making shoddy UI decisions is going to make Windows 8 look bad in comparison. It's already an uphill battle, so I can't really understand why MS would risk even the slightest UI blunder on the Modern UI now. 

 

What I mean is that a more cohesive interoperation between the desktop UI and Modern UI is certainly welcome and indeed needed, but if it is going to be shoddy and ill thought out then it's better not to do it and take some time to do it properly. The more I see of this leaked "update" the less I believe my eyes. I get the intention, but not the execution.

[nyolc8]

What happens if I have my taskbar at the top of the screen and not at the bottom? Then when I move my mouse at the top of the screen, the taskbar AND the titlebar appears too? So one of them will be unusable then because of the overlap...

 

(note: I actually have the taskbar at the right side, just wondering...)

[thechronic]

Looks like they're still working this out but in my opinion it's going in the right direction ie; trying to tie metro with traditional explorer

[contextfree]

When people talk about the "Metro switcher" are you referring specifically to the recent apps list that appears when you swipe in and back out or hook around the corner, or about the whole switching apparatus on the left edge? If we're talking about the whole thing, I definitely agree there are some disadvantages compared to the taskbar, basically the ones listed by "theyarecomingforyou". However, there are some advantages as well:

 

• The ability to flip through recent apps by swiping from the left edge or clicking in the upper-left corner. This is particularly useful for switching back to the most recent app which is an extremely common action. Essentially it provides a quick mouse/touch equivalent to alt-tab which was always keyboard-only. Besides being efficient, it's just fun to do and looks cool :-)
• The ability to size/position the window for an app (within common configurations such as half-screen) just by dragging it from the left edge to the target position. The somewhat clunky sequence of first switching to an app, then positioning and sizing a window and perhaps even moving other windows out of the way becomes one fluid motion.
• No persistent chrome. Note while you can hide the taskbar, I'm not sure if this works as well as the larger size becomes more important for recognition and targeting when your targets aren't always visible. It also takes up the entire bottom edge with the mouse, while the RAL mechanism lets the system get by with just the corners with little loss in efficiency as recommended by interaction design expert Bruce Tognazzini in 1999 :-)

Personally, I think it would be good to have the option of either an auto-hiding or persistent switching affordance, with different defaults depending on screen size and a quick way to toggle modes at any time. Both versions would be on the left edge of the screen, but the auto-hiding version would more resemble the current recent apps list, and the persistent version would more resemble the taskbar. The persistent version could also still keep the drag-to-position-window advantage listed above, but unfortunately I don't think it could keep swipe-to-flip as there'd be too much confusion between it and drag-to-position. (I'd also add drag-to-position to app results from the Search pane and any prospective non-full-screen Start menu :-) )

[Kyang]

• The ability to size/position the window for an app (within common configurations such as half-screen) just by dragging it from the left edge to the target position. The somewhat clunky sequence of first switching to an app, then positioning and sizing a window and perhaps even moving other windows out of the way becomes one fluid motion.

 

Completely forgot about this one.  Great point.

[Dot Matrix]

• The ability to flip through recent apps by swiping from the left edge or clicking in the upper-left corner. This is particularly useful for switching back to the most recent app which is an extremely common action. Essentially it provides a quick mouse/touch equivalent to alt-tab which was always keyboard-only. Besides being efficient, it's just fun to do and looks cool :-)
• The ability to size/position the window for an app (within common configurations such as half-screen) just by dragging it from the left edge to the target position. The somewhat clunky sequence of first switching to an app, then positioning and sizing a window and perhaps even moving other windows out of the way becomes one fluid motion.
• No persistent chrome. Note while you can hide the taskbar, I'm not sure if this works as well as the larger size becomes more important for recognition and targeting when your targets aren't always visible. It also takes up the entire bottom edge with the mouse, while the RAL mechanism lets the system get by with just the corners with little loss in efficiency as recommended by interaction design expert Bruce Tognazzini in 1999 :-)

 

(Y)

 

 

Can someone with the leaked build do me a favor? Can you go and unpin all the metro apps from the taskbar (including the store) and tell me if the taskbar still appears over metro apps?

[DConnell Member]

Correct.. lets look at his poll intsead

 

 

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1135456-do-you-want-the-start-menu-in-windows-8/

 

That's interesting. So on Neowin at least, those who want the Menu back and those who don't are within 10% of each other. So not as universal as the detractors would claim.

 

I'd say that this is justification for giving the option for a menu, but not for making it the default, and especially not for making it the only option.

 

And the results as of 9 AM 2/9 on your own poll are even more interesting - "I have Win 8 and like Modern" is winning by a landslide! So it looks like Microsoft turning Modern into just another flavor of desktop may really be the wrong direction after all. Going by this poll at least. . .

[vcfan]

What happens if I have my taskbar at the top of the screen and not at the bottom? Then when I move my mouse at the top of the screen, the taskbar AND the titlebar appears too? So one of them will be unusable then because of the overlap...

 

(note: I actually have the taskbar at the right side, just wondering...)

they both appear, but as I stated earlier,simply moving the mouse to the edge wont bring up the taskbar,you have to pause at the edge then move in that direction again. it will let you do exactly as you want,either work the title bar,or work the taskbar.

 

(Y)

Can someone with the leaked build do me a favor? Can you go and unpin all the metro apps from the taskbar (including the store) and tell me if the taskbar still appears over metro apps?

it does,because when you open a metro app, the icon will always show on the taskbar,even if you never pinned it,just like when you open a desktop application without it being pinned.

[Stoffel]

The Metro Switcher might be an important part of Windows 8?though I personally disagree with that assessment?but that doesn't mean it should be part of Windows 9 - in fact it's telling that Microsoft is trying to move on from Windows 8 as quickly as possible. Even in this update we see Microsoft moving away from the Metro Switcher. It wasn't an improvement on the taskbar, especially not for desktop users.

 

As I said, I'm not opposed to changes being made to the taskbar to make it a better all round tool but I despise the Metro Switcher and don't see how it could be improved.

 

Have you ever used Windows 8 with a touch screen?

I have a Lenovo Yoga and love the Metro switcher. I use it all the time

Nothng more easy then swiping in from the left to switch apps

[Dot Matrix]

it does,because when you open a metro app, the icon will always show on the taskbar,even if you never pinned it,just like when you open a desktop application without it being pinned.

 

Jesus. WTF is MSFT actually thinking here? :crazy:

[Stoffel]

Jesus. WTF is MSFT actually thinking here? :crazy:

 

But don't you still have the option not to show any Modern apps on the taskbar?

In that case you should not see the taskbar right?

 

I'm with you on this one, no need to see the taskbar with Modern apps

[Kyang]

they both appear, but as I stated earlier,simply moving the mouse to the edge wont bring up the taskbar,you have to pause at the edge then move in that direction again. it will let you do exactly as you want,either work the title bar,or work the taskbar.

 

it does,because when you open a metro app, the icon will always show on the taskbar,even if you never pinned it,just like when you open a desktop application without it being pinned.

 

I thought from the leaked video there was some option on the taskbar property pane that let the user choose whether they wanted Metro apps on the taskbar or not?  Is that an older build or did I recall incorrectly?

 

If it's the former, does choosing to have them not show up still bring up the taskbar?

 

 

EDIT:

 

But don't you still have the option not to show any Modern apps on the taskbar?

In that case you should not see the taskbar right?

 

I'm with you on this one, no need to see the taskbar with Modern apps

 

What he said.

[vcfan]

But don't you still have the option not to show any Modern apps on the taskbar?

In that case you should not see the taskbar right?

 

I'm with you on this one, no need to see the taskbar with Modern apps

yeah you can turn it off completely and it wont show the taskbar. I was merely stating that unpinning doesnt change the behavior of the taskbar, if the option is on.

[Dot Matrix]

So there's an option to turn it off completely? I feel like I should download the build, I feel out in the cold with all these changes.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Have you ever used Windows 8 with a touch screen?

Yes, my mother has a Surface 2 tablet which I've used numerous times and I've tried out plenty of display models. I also have a Leap Motion, which allows me to use touch-gestures with my non-touch display. The Metro Switcher will appeal to people who use Metro apps nearly exclusively (i.e. tablet users) but it lacks the simplicity and usability of the taskbar. I have a 30" display and have no need for a hidden taskbar with limited functionality simply for Metro apps when the existing taskbar would be much more usable. In fact even Microsoft has accepted that with the decision to include Metro apps on the taskbar.

 

If the Metro Switcher is great for tablets then that's fine by me but I sure as hell don't want it on the desktop, where it serves only to irritate and impede usability. I don't know why Microsoft didn't simply improve the taskbar for touch and make it hidden by default on tablets, with a swipe-up gesture to access it. Microsoft tried to unify the experience for desktops and tablets yet opted for each to have its own task switcher - it was a ridiculous decision. Either give tablets a separate UI / gestures or unify the experience - Windows 8 was just a mess in terms of usability. That said, if you ignore the Metro stuff and just use the desktop it's actually a pretty decent OS (the converse is probably also true, if you're a tablet user and ignore the desktop it's probably a pretty decent OS).

[Dot Matrix]

Yes, my mother has a Surface 2 tablet which I've used numerous times and I've tried out plenty of display models. I also have a Leap Motion, which allows me to use touch-gestures with my non-touch display. The Metro Switcher will appeal to people who use Metro apps nearly exclusively (i.e. tablet users) but it lacks the simplicity and usability of the taskbar. I have a 30" display and have no need for a hidden taskbar with limited functionality simply for Metro apps when the existing taskbar would be much more usable. In fact even Microsoft has accepted that with the decision to include Metro apps on the taskbar.

 

If the Metro Switcher is great for tablets then that's fine by me but I sure as hell don't want it on the desktop, where it serves only to irritate and impede usability. I don't know why Microsoft didn't simply improve the taskbar for touch and make it hidden by default on tablets, with a swipe-up gesture to access it. Microsoft tried to unify the experience for desktops and tablets yet opted for each to have its own task switcher - it was a ridiculous decision. Either give tablets a separate UI / gestures or unify the experience - Windows 8 was just a mess in terms of usability. That said, if you ignore the Metro stuff and just use the desktop it's actually a pretty decent OS (the converse is probably also true, if you're a tablet user and ignore the desktop it's probably a pretty decent OS).

The task switcher was designed so that you can switch between apps with your thumb (assuming you're holding a tablet with two hands). Something you obviously can't do with the taskbar. It would also impede the swipe up motion in metro.

 

I also disagree that it was a mess. I have thoroughly enjoyed using it on my desktop, where I have yet to have the Metro additions impede my workflow. It's not that hard to avoid triggering the Charms menu or the task switcher when you don't want to.

 

This new update is quite literally making things a mess. Microsoft had a nice separation before this, and this is certainly NOT the desktop integration users have been asking for.

[Chris123NT]

So there's an option to turn it off completely? I feel like I should download the build, I feel out in the cold with all these changes.

 

Uncheck "Show Windows Store apps on the taskbar" and you will not see the taskbar in the modern UI at all.

[theyarecomingforyou]

This new update is quite literally making things a mess. Microsoft had a nice separation before this, and this is certainly NOT the desktop integration users have been asking for.

Well, I don't think we're going to agree on this.

 

Personally I think Microsoft is taking a step in the right direction after the usability mess that was Windows 8. While I occasionally use Metro apps they do not fit in well with my workflow, in large part because they either run fullscreen (despite there being no need for it) or mess up the desktop view in snap mode (resizing windows, etc). I fully respect Microsoft's commitment to tablets?in fact I would argue Windows 8.1 is easily better than iOS or Android for tablets?but the desktop experience was compromised and it will take until at least Windows 9 for things to get back on track.

[Dot Matrix]

Options.png

 

Uncheck "Show Windows Store apps on the taskbar" and you will not see the taskbar in the modern UI at all.

 

Thank God. (Y)

[Chris123NT]

Thank God. (Y)

So you're satisfied with Update 1 now?  I think it's got something for everyone, should do a pretty good job making everyone happy.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

Paul Thurrott's latest thoughts on Windows 8.x:

 

'What the Heck is Happening to Windows?'

[heatlesssun]

Paul Thurrott's latest thoughts on Windows 8.x:

 

'What the Heck is Happening to Windows?'

 

I think Thurrott is starting to take himself too seriously. I just don't get the issue here, adding a close button to modern apps and allowing to show up in the taskbar has been something that many have been asking for from day one. It makes perfect sense from the standpoint of a keyboard and mouse user.