Thoughts: Windows 8.1 Update 1 looks worse than ever before...

[COKid]

So you're satisfied with Update 1 now?  I think it's got something for everyone, should do a pretty good job making everyone happy.

 

Therein lies the problem.

 

A quote from Thurrott's article: "... and am now wondering whether Microsoft has simply fallen into an all-too-familiar trap of trying to please everyone, and creating a product that is ultimately not ideal for anyone."

 

For those users who enjoy Windows 8, more power to ya. For me, though, whenever I go back to Windows 7, I say to myself, "Now THIS is the Windows I know and love." So until 2020, at least, I know what I'll be using.

 

Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. :)

[Chris123NT]

I think Thurrott is starting to take himself too seriously. I just don't get the issue here, adding a close button to modern apps and allowing to show up in the taskbar has been something that many have been asking for from day one. It makes perfect sense from the standpoint of a keyboard and mouse user.

This.

 

Paul just likes to complain to drive hits to his site.  Update 1 is another step in the right direction and I don't understand how Paul fails to see that, especially after he himself called Windows 8 a failure.

[MorganX]

But don't you still have the option not to show any Modern apps on the taskbar?

In that case you should not see the taskbar right?

 

I'm with you on this one, no need to see the taskbar with Modern apps

 

Only they do because for many, including myself, it's far more intuitive and productive to switch running apps using the taskbar as opposed to the Modern UI App bar. Taking a screenshot of an unhidden taskbar that will only remain as long as it takes you to switch apps is misleading.

[MorganX]

This.

 

Paul just likes to complain to drive hits to his site.  Update 1 is another step in the right direction and I don't understand how Paul fails to see that, especially after he himself called Windows 8 a failure.

 

At this time, while MS fixes some of it' screw ups, there's not much for Paul to write about. He has no choice but to make up something to write about. He's not going to be quiet and let them finish, that generates no page visits.

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

No, but it is better than warwagon's version. Also, are you saying that it's wrong about the results for Justin Bieber? :o Well, where do we create the poll if that's an issue? :laugh:

 

And my purpose was to show that there are a lot of people who actually like the modern Ul. So.. flawed, or not, these polls were still a good indication of that. Even warwagon's poll shows this as over 200 people voted no to the return of the start menu.  :) Obliviously at the end of the day, Windows 9 will give people the choice of whether they want to use the start menu or the modern Ul, which will be good as it'll end the debate as no-one can really complain if they have a choice.

They'll find a way to complain... e.g. it doesn't default one way or the other! ;-)

 

 

That's interesting. So on Neowin at least, those who want the Menu back and those who don't are within 10% of each other. So not as universal as the detractors would claim.

 

I'd say that this is justification for giving the option for a menu, but not for making it the default, and especially not for making it the only option.

 

And the results as of 9 AM 2/9 on your own poll are even more interesting - "I have Win 8 and like Modern" is winning by a landslide! So it looks like Microsoft turning Modern into just another flavor of desktop may really be the wrong direction after all. Going by this poll at least. . .

You are misreading the poll... sure, out of the context you could say that particular option is "winning by a landslide", but 3 of the the other options are dislikes of the ModernUI and when added together even out the scores to be a mixed bag. But, really the mixed response to the first question tells you that. At the end of the day, all three of the poll questions (the old poll and new polls) are showing a consistent result of : mixed response for the neowin crowd..

 

This doesn't surprise me. It's been rather obvious that neowin is polarized on this topic: we have a lot of vocal folk who hate the UI and a lot of vocal folk love the UI.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Yes a poll for the non-technical... I suspect it will be a lot more dislike than like.

[Dot Matrix]

So you're satisfied with Update 1 now?  I think it's got something for everyone, should do a pretty good job making everyone happy.

Overall, this still isn't the desktop integration I was hoping to see. I can understand caption buttons on Metro apps (ala Media Center), however, integrating Metro apps to the desktop as if they were desktop apps is still the wrong way to go, and certainly will not help evolve things down the line. If MSFT is serious with this new vision, then they should be sticking to their guns with transforming Windows to this new Metro environment, not trying to revert things back into the desktop suddenly.

Yes a poll for the non-technical... I suspect it will be a lot more dislike than like.

Then if you suspect that, you should be asking why they dislike it. Is it because it's new? Is it because it's different? Or is it because of other reasons?

[Dot Matrix]

Christ, I can't believe I clicked on that Thurrott article. What a tool. But, I do agree with the comments stating that this update is a mess, because it is. In every sense of the word.

 

I get that they want to fuse desktop/metro, but what they've done looks AWFUL. Like really, incredibly bad. Not even a bad design student would approve this. Was an ugly black bar on top the best option? Who thought the taskbar would look good on top of start screen/metro apps? Seriously, WHAT?

 

Taskbar on metro apps... seriously, ugh.

 

I agree the W8.1 update 1 looks an ugly set of inconsistent and confused changes. Those mouse right click menus just look awful, taskbars are just silly.

 

Maybe they should bring Sinofsky back, since they are losing all sense of style and boldness. This is the wrong time to hesitate on promoting Metro forward with bolder moves on desktop devices.

[heatlesssun]

Overall, this still isn't the desktop integration I was hoping to see. I can understand caption buttons on Metro apps (ala Media Center), however, integrating Metro apps to the desktop as if they were desktop apps is still the wrong way to go, and certainly will not help evolve things down the line. If MSFT is serious with this new vision, then they should be sticking to their guns with transforming Windows to this new Metro environment, not trying to revert things back into the desktop suddenly.

 

 

The modern UI has to be better integrated into the desktop, that was obvious from day one. There are plenty of modern apps that work well with a keyboard and mouse and there's no reason not to use them on the desktop like desktop applications.

[Dot Matrix]

The modern UI has to be better integrated into the desktop, that was obvious from day one. There are plenty of modern apps that work well with a keyboard and mouse and there's no reason not to use them on the desktop like desktop applications.

No, no. It needs to be the exact opposite, the desktop needs fused into the Modern UI.

[i_was_here]

So have desktop apps run full-screen in the Modern UI? Unless they implement some type of automatic tiling, no thank you. I don't run every app maximized let alone full-screen.

[heatlesssun]

No, no. It needs to be the exact opposite, the desktop needs fused into the Modern UI.

 

The problem there though is that would require a lot of desktop apps to be rewritten or modified, and that's probably not going to happen on a large scale. Plus there still is the issue of existing desktop users that simply aren't every going to change much. Again, I see nothing wrong with adding there options, It takes nothing away from modern apps and allows them used in ways more familiar to keyboard and mouse users.

[Dot Matrix]

So have desktop apps run full-screen in the Modern UI? Unless they implement some type of automatic tiling, no thank you. I don't run every app maximized let alone full-screen.

What I'm saying is the desktop should be a subset of the Metro UI. It needs to be integrated into Metro and updated to be fast and fluid like the Metro UI is, while retaining the ability to run windowed and fullscreen desktop applications. Almost like a virtual desktop.

[BajiRav]

I think Thurrott is starting to take himself too seriously. I just don't get the issue here, adding a close button to modern apps and allowing to show up in the taskbar has been something that many have been asking for from day one. It makes perfect sense from the standpoint of a keyboard and mouse user.

I am all for sensible options but this makes no sense.

From the first leaked build of Windows 8 we had,

- TOUCH: Drag down to close app

- KEYBOARD: Alt+F4 to close app

- MOUSE: Click and drag down to close app

The only user at somewhat disadvantage here is a mouse user and I kind of see the point but then why the **** are they so worried about suspended apps that use miniscule RAM and next to nothing CPU?

(No I am not mad at mouse users - as I understand,they are power users who don't know how to use keyboard :p)

[vcfan]

Paul Thurrott's latest thoughts on Windows 8.x:

 

'What the Heck is Happening to Windows?'

 

three days ago

Windows 8.1 Update 1 + ModernMix?

It's like chocolate and peanut butter 

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-81-update-1-modernmix

 

If you've been following along with my Windows 8.1 Update 1 articles, you know that this relatively minor but important update to Windows 8.1 adds, among other things, the ability to pin Modern apps to the desktop's taskbar and, separately, to display running Modern apps to the taskbar automatically. These are nice changes for anyone that uses the desktop primarily but likes to use Modern mobile apps too.

There's just one problem: When you switch to a Modern app from the desktop, it still runs full-screen, and you can't see the taskbar or any other running mobile apps and desktop applications, let alone the Windows desktop.

today

 

With Update 1, however, I'm beginning to question the validity of this new direction

Now, some people will see this as "choice," because these changes?desktop-like context menus in the Start screen, a desktop-like title bar in Metro apps, and so on?will somehow make the system more consistent for them, because they still use traditional PCs. But here's the thing. This mobile environment worked just fine with mouse and keyboard in Windows 8.0 and 8.1, and it was consistent with the touch-based interactions for which the environment was designed. Now? It's a mess.

oh paul, the contradictions make you look like a ****in joke

[heatlesssun]

I am all for sensible options but this makes no sense.

From the first leaked build of Windows 8 we had,

- TOUCH: Drag down to close app

- KEYBOARD: Alt+F4 to close app

- MOUSE: Click and drag down to close app

 

 

And these options still work with this update. This update simply allows keyboard and mouse users to navigate modern apps just like they always have with desktop apps and takes ZERO away from modern apps. I just do not understand why this isn't anything but positive and a step in the right direction considering that its optional was well.

[BajiRav]

And these options still work with this update. This update simply allows keyboard and mouse users to navigate modern apps just like they always have with desktop apps and takes ZERO away from modern apps. I just do not understand why this isn't anything but positive and a step in the right direction considering that its optional was well.

how does showing a title bar and/or close button helps keyboard users in any manner?

[heatlesssun]

how does showing a title bar and/or close button helps keyboard users in any manner?

 

I said keyboard and mouse users and this clearly is a familiar convention to them, much more so than dragging to close.

[George P Global Moderator]

These are just the first steps in a long process of better merging the two different environments together. Don't be surprised if later on in a future version they redo the taskbar as well. For now these changes help those who don't know the metro side well and ease the learning curve. They're not removing things, all the touch first metro bits are still going to be around even in 9 where they have windowed metro apps and a new menu. As has always been the case I expect that users will be fully able to use the parts they want going forward. So even on a desktop without touch if you want to use the start screen instead of the new menu you'll be able to.

I'm really interested in seeing how they update the taskbar going forward.

[Dot Matrix]

oh paul, the contradictions make you look like a ****in joke

 

MSFT must have blacklisted him again. :P

[chrisj1968]

not to get anyone upset however, ALL this modern UI vs desktop fury died down with 8.1.

 

I'm beginning to think there is more to this than we are being led on to. leak a few screenies with modern UI mashed up within the confines of the desktop? MSFT could simply be trying to either force the fight and debate to continue or trying act like they are innovating once again by mixing up the two. As long as I can shut down the modern UI aspect from my desktop and still keep my current desktop.. I'm cool.

 

I think MSFT for all tense and purposes that, MSFT did a darn good job with the way the OS is. It caters to both groups... modern UI and we desktop users.

 

why fix something that isn't broken? my minds eye is telling me somehow or someway that MSFT is really trying to push the modern UI on us all and mash it up.

[+virtorio MVC]

 

why fix something that isn't broken? my minds eye is telling me somehow or someway that MSFT is really trying to push the modern UI on us all and mash it up.

They want people to use Modern apps (aka Windows Store apps), because they want people to buy software and in-app purchases from the Windows Store. I assume they thought "Modern" would catch on the same way iOS and the App Store did for Apple. It didn't, so now they're trying to cater to Desktop favouring users in the hopes they'll use the Store.

[DConnell Member]

So have desktop apps run full-screen in the Modern UI? Unless they implement some type of automatic tiling, no thank you. I don't run every app maximized let alone full-screen.

 

How about the option to run desktop programs full-screen in Modern, and if you need it windowed it drops into the desktop? I'd love to have the option to run traditional programs in Modern, but there are some - messenger apps for instance - for which it simply wouldn't work. Just like a lot of the Modern apps will not look or work right in windows. 

 

I say give us the option for traditional programs in Modern and let us turn it on/off as it suits us. I don't need Modern apps on the desktop, but I do need this!

[Kyang]

How about the option to run desktop programs full-screen in Modern, and if you need it windowed it drops into the desktop? I'd love to have the option to run traditional programs in Modern, but there are some - messenger apps for instance - for which it simply wouldn't work. Just like a lot of the Modern apps will not look or work right in windows. 

 

I say give us the option for traditional programs in Modern and let us turn it on/off as it suits us. I don't need Modern apps on the desktop, but I do need this!

 

Like the full screen button in OSX...

 

 

EDIT:

 

Wow, I just realized with the taskbar sliding up and the window controls sliding down, and metro apps appearing on the taskbar, Metro apps in 8.1 Update 1 are basically almost exactly like full screen applications in OSX.

[George P Global Moderator]

They want people to use Modern apps (aka Windows Store apps), because they want people to buy software and in-app purchases from the Windows Store. I assume they thought "Modern" would catch on the same way iOS and the App Store did for Apple. It didn't, so now they're trying to cater to Desktop favouring users in the hopes they'll use the Store.

While I agree with your first point, the second one, that it hasn't caught on, I don't agree with. While not compatible to the iOS and Android stores it's not exactly the same situation, MS right now has two different stores while the others don't. That's not going to be the case soon, the ability to run the same apps on phone and tablet/desktop will be a big help, also having them windowed later will also help more.