Thoughts: Windows 8.1 Update 1 looks worse than ever before...

[+Anarkii Subscriber²]

I think Microsoft are taking big steps and strides in making Windows 8.2 (I refuse to call it 8.1 Update 1, because of the huge changes in both UI, and functionality). The current look of the task bar and metro apps is a welcome improvement, although, as many said before, Metro apps should not be running full screen. There is no reason why I would want to open calculator in full screen for example. Its a stupid idea, with stupid functionality for us on the desktop. 

I really do hope they continue down this path, Microsoft are FINALLY getting Windows 8 right. While it will never be as popular as XP or 7 because of the terrible mess 8 was when it came out, and the lacklusture sales of Surface tablets, Windows 9 should be the all in one fix that 8 currently was. I say was, because 8.2 is looking pretty damn good compared to what 8 was. 

One thing I would like to know is, does it boot to Metro on tablets, and boot to desktop on desktops?
If Microsoft did that, 8.2 would be a winning formula for 9 :)

[Active.]

One thing I would like to know is, does it boot to Metro on tablets, and boot to desktop on desktops?   :)

Yes. It boots to the desktop by default only on non-touchscreen PCs.

[PGHammer]

On the one hand, the hardware that Windows up to 7 is designed for (leaving ARM and therefore RT completely out) (regardless of which one) is horribly underutilized (which is said by practically everyone), yet when Microsoft dares to push the envelope (in terms of software AND hardware - including formfactors) , and you retreat to the "what about my workstation" rubric so fast, it makes my head spin.

The reality is (for the critics) not only do they hate the very idea that Microsoft is daring to push the supported-hardware-and-formfactors envelope (not alone touch-screen, but hybrid hardware, such as detachable-keyboard portables or even desktops and AIOs), but that the mouse is more important than the keyboard - always has been and always will be.

 

Pardon me for having a different opinion!

 

The idea of pointing-device-pre-eminence came about for a lot of users with Windows 95 in particular - and that is entirely due to the Start menu, period.  Yet the Start menu itself, by default, hid a LOT of things - it only started UNhiding them with Vista, and 7 (basically an improved Vista, and I'm not alone in saying so - most Windows forums on the Internet globally say the same).  Yes - Windows XP offered the option of the semi-unhidden menu that would later become the Vista/7 default; yet that SAME menu was heavily criticized AND ridiculed by many - in fact, on both Neowin and Winbeta (I was in transition from one to the other) forum members really had their knives out for it.  From stinkeroo to "the greatest thing since Wonder bread" in a mere two OS releases.  (How much did the menu change between XP's option and 7's default?)

 

Segue to the RTM of Windows 7 itself.  Microsoft was still faced with the same dilemma that it had since XP - and even ALL the OEMs and IHVs which supported Windows, or installed it on their desktops, workstations, and portables - agreed; the existing hardware was horribly underutilized for the most part.  (So have the users - the gripefest about it here on Neowin alone - even with 7 - is forcing forum upgrades at a monstrous pace merely to handle it.)  Yet unless the software in quesiton is a game or a niche program, the insistence has been either "baby steps" or, horribly, NO steps whatsoever.

 

Such a conflict is "rock and a hard place" territory, for ANY OS.  It's a conflict because you are basically left with tinkering - and it's far worse if your existing OS is seen as dull and largely boring - which, like it or not, was very much the case with even Windows 7, due to low hardware utilization of the software base, for the most part.

 

Windows 8 does indeed support touch-screen hardware better - largely because it has to; touch-screen hardware grew merely as part of the Windows hardware base, compared to 7 (when touch-screen hardware costs started their decrease, which has continued to the present).  Notice that RT hasn't come up - because RT is, in fact, quite irrelevant to the argument.  SSD support is also improved - in fact, support for hardware that started being introduced with 7 got better - in fact, much better - in Windows 8.  (Not even the critics dispute that.)  What has inspired the criticism of Windows 8 - more than anything else - is the UI reset known as ModernUI.

 

ModernUI is, first and foremost, exactly that - a big red reset button to the Windows UI as a whole; in fact, for the first time since Windows NT 4, it happened across the entire Windows hardware base - from portables to the server closet.  The only thing obvious with ModernUI - from a desktop application user's POV - is the excision of the Start menu.  Touch support isn't obvious - would most users know about it if they didn't see it, or read the specs on the hardware it's installed on? (HP's TouchSmart series of Windows 8 desktops and AIOs are otherwise identical to the Pavilions they are sold alongside - with the same OS, and, other than the touch-screens, the same peripherals, including keyboard, mouse, etc.  Cover up the TouchSmart branding and replace it with Pavilion branding, and when would it hit you that you were on a touch-supporting desktop?  The answer to that - and in my case, it comes from using them - is a big fat not at all.  Therefore, so much for touch-screen support being obvious.)

 

Therefore, if touch support is not obvious, and desktop applications largely don't care, what's the real gist of the complaints with Windows 8 and 8.1?  Occam's Razor puts itself to use there - what's gone from Windows 8 that Windows 7 had?  Yes - the Start menu - pointing-device magnet (and even trouble magnet that it was, merely with XP and Vista) that it was designed to be.

[Romero]

One thing I would like to know is, does it boot to Metro on tablets, and boot to desktop on desktops?

I think I read someone commenting on the latest MSU leak that it does do this, but even if it didn't I think the choice (as it exists in 8.1) is sufficient.

 

Most people still not satisfied with Update 1 should be IMO if (when) the Start Menu returns in Win9. As for people like Auditor who have such an irrational hatred of Metro that they want it completely removed for everyone, I hope Microsoft never listens to them. Funny how he expects them to be "reasonable" when he cannot. With the Start Menu back as an optional alternative to the Start Screen anyone who wants to avoid all aspects of Metro will be able to do so without a third party app. You can't ask for more and then hopefully Microsoft can focus its energies on looking forward again and further improving both Metro and the Desktop.

[f0rk_b0mb]

I agree with Dot. The current build is ugly as ######. Like it or hate it, the purpose of metro was to provide an "immersive" experience across all form factors. However, with this update, it seems Microsoft is going to continue mashing things together unnecessarily, removing features, and in the end, pissing off their most valuable customer: Enterprises and power users.

 

As it stands right now, I will defiantly not be updating to this build anytime soon. And yes, I do realize it is alpha code.

[Chris123NT]

Ok, I seriously LOLed so hard when I saw this thread that everyone in my house came to see what was up and now they're all laughing too.

 

Fact of the matter is that these changes are intended to make metro more kb/mouse friendly, and it does exactly that.  You will NOT see the taskbar in metro unless you ABSOLUTELY intend to.  A brief overshoot won't bring it up, you have to hover there for a second to see it.  I see these changes as an honest effort from Microsoft to make everyone as happy as possible.  I have to admit, I am happy with this, I don't use the start menu anymore since 8.1 came out, I use the start screen now and I got used to it, but certain things still felt off about the whole experience.  This update fixes 90% of that for me, and I am happy with that.

 

So to finish this all up, learn to accept change and move forward my friend, after all, that's what you told all of us to do when we said Windows 8 was a disaster ;)

[+Anarkii Subscriber²]

I agree with Dot. The current build is ugly as ****. Like it or hate it, the purpose of metro was to provide an "immersive" experience across all form factors. However, with this update, it seems Microsoft is going to continue mashing things together unnecessarily, removing features, and in the end, ****ing off their most valuable customer: Enterprises and power users.

 

As it stands right now, I will defiantly not be updating to this build anytime soon. And yes, I do realize it is alpha code.

Your right, the purpose of Metro was to provide and immersive experience across all platforms.

The problem is, which you and Dot Matrix fail to see, is that Microsoft have failed big time in bringing that experience to the end user. Whether its a Enterprise user, A power user, or simply the old granny living next door. 

Like it or loathe it, these changes are MUCH NEEDED changes for everyone. Microsoft are finally listening to what users want, that includes Enterrprise and Power Users - and are working hard to fix them. Sure, whingers who splooge over how great Metro is on the desktop are going to hate on Microsoft, but - and these forums are the perfect example - only about 2 people out of 100 are going to be affected. 

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. - Spock 

Couldnt be further from the truth. 

[George P Global Moderator]

The problem as some have said is that the taskbar doesn't match with the metro UI itself, though the new title bars in metro apps does match the UI. This says a few things to me, one it's a stop gap for now, it's a way to get more people used to the start screen and store apps. Those are NOT going to go away, even in Windows 9, Store apps are going to be part of the system going forward. The fact the store is now pinned to the taskbar by default is a clear sign of this.

Also we know that store apps will be windowed in 9 and that some menu is in the works but the fact they're also extending the taskbar into the start screen right now says to me that they'll update it as well, new style or design in 9 so that people who still want to use the start screen and not the new menu will get a better fit. From the rumors it sounds like they're going to have 3 versions with 9. One for ARM devices and tablets that are probably 10" and smaller that is just metro 2.0 and no desktop or the desktop is at least turned off. The second is the hybrid mode with metro 2.0 plus the desktop for devices that can be a tablet and a laptop when needed. Then finally the desktop version with windowed store apps and the new menu be default.

[gawicks]

I actually Like it.

[hagjohn]

Looks like crap. 

[f0rk_b0mb]

Your right, the purpose of Metro was to provide and immersive experience across all platforms.

The problem is, which you and Dot Matrix fail to see, is that Microsoft have failed big time in bringing that experience to the end user. Whether its a Enterprise user, A power user, or simply the old granny living next door. 

Like it or loathe it, these changes are MUCH NEEDED changes for everyone. Microsoft are finally listening to what users want, that includes Enterrprise and Power Users - and are working hard to fix them. Sure, whingers who splooge over how great Metro is on the desktop are going to hate on Microsoft, but - and these forums are the perfect example - only about 2 people out of 100 are going to be affected. 

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. - Spock 

Couldnt be further from the truth. 

 

They've lost the plot. They are trying to shoehorn desktop M&k features into a UI meant for tablets. Do you fail to see the issue at hand? I'm a complete Metro hater and even I can see this is nothing but lunacy!

 

The "correct" way of handling this would be to do what everybody's been saying since day one: give the user a choice of UI's, allow metro apps to run on the desktop so there's not 2 calculators, 2 IE's, etc. You get the jist. 

 

All Microsoft is doing is further complicating the UI and throwing a cluster ###### of crap onscreen. (Pardon my French) I mean good god man, look at DM's screenshots on page 1. Look at the screenshot of Metro IE. Overlapping is not part of MSFT's Metro design language. It's one of the many things I pray to god they change before RTM. 

 

Anyway, this is alpha code. It probably won't look anything like this when finished. Let's see what happens before we get our knickers in a bunch...

[gawicks]

 Overlapping is not part of MSFT's Metro design language. It's one of the many things I pray to god they change before RTM. 

 

Overlapping on hover is the way it works in metro now too. Checkout the Charms and the metro task switcher they all overlap the app. Nothing is different here.

[contextfree]

Also we know that store apps will be windowed in 9 and that some menu is in the works but the fact they're also extending the taskbar into the start screen right now says to me that they'll update it as well, new style or design in 9 so that people who still want to use the start screen and not the new menu will get a better fit. From the rumors it sounds like they're going to have 3 versions with 9. One for ARM devices and tablets that are probably 10" and smaller that is just metro 2.0 and no desktop or the desktop is at least turned off. The second is the hybrid mode with metro 2.0 plus the desktop for devices that can be a tablet and a laptop when needed. Then finally the desktop version with windowed store apps and the new menu be default.

 

Yeah, and I hope these "3 versions" are implemented the same way as the model changes we've seen in 8.1 and 8.1.1 have been - as just different defaults for a bunch of options that can be turned on and off individually. So, in the end, we have just one flexible Windows, with features and ways of working that can all be used together or not used to suit each person's preferences, task and context.

[f0rk_b0mb]

Overlapping on hover is the way it works in metro now too. Checkout the Charms and the metro task switcher they all overlap the app. Nothing is different here.

 

Hmm...I completely forgot about that. tu shey. It's not as intrusive as the Metro IE screenshot tho.

[vcfan]

You will NOT see the taskbar in metro unless you ABSOLUTELY intend to.  A brief overshoot won't bring it up, you have to hover there for a second to see it.

 

just installed it on a machine,and tested this functionality with a trackpad. simply moving the pointer to the bottom edge isn't enough to bring it up,even if you pause. you need to move the pointer down to the edge,pause,then move the pointer down again further, or if you don't want to pause, you could move the pointer down to the bottom edge, then change your down movement speed to a little faster.

[NEVER85]

Uh? Obviously you're just scared of change. So stop whining and continue using Windows 8/8.1 if you can't handle these improvements.  I'm sure Microsoft knows what it's doing better than you do.

 

 

He's the biggest proponent of Windows 8/8.1 on Neowin. I'd say the people who are scared of change are the ones who somehow can't live without a Start menu.

[Chris123NT]

He's the biggest proponent of Windows 8/8.1 on Neowin. I'd say the people who are scared of change are the ones who somehow can't live without a Start menu.

And it seems Mr. Dot Matrix cannot accept change when that change makes metro more usable in a traditional kb/mouse environment.  So it's all the same thing, people have trouble accepting change to environments that they are fond of.

[neo1911]

I would say this is a step in the right direction. Metro apps on desktop and resizing their windows functionality is coming. OP is not happy about it. Tough.

Microsoft can provide a customised version of Windows 8.1.1 to OP which is devoid of desktop mode and has Metro metro and only metro related stuff.

:P

[vcfan]

heres some other tidbits

to select multiple tiles on the start screen, hold ctrl then click the tiles you want. I know some people asked about this.

another thing about using minimize in the title bar. the app minimizes,and you are dumped in the desktop view,even if you launched the app from the start screen. an icon will show on the taskbar even if you never pinned the app,just like when you open a desktop application,so you can easily switch between metro and desktop apps from the taskbar. if you want to stay in metro mode, you use the metro task switcher,and by clicking start to "minimize" app and go from app to start screen.

[PGHammer]

They've lost the plot. They are trying to shoehorn desktop M&k features into a UI meant for tablets. Do you fail to see the issue at hand? I'm a complete Metro hater and even I can see this is nothing but lunacy!

 

The "correct" way of handling this would be to do what everybody's been saying since day one: give the user a choice of UI's, allow metro apps to run on the desktop so there's not 2 calculators, 2 IE's, etc. You get the jist. 

 

All Microsoft is doing is further complicating the UI and throwing a cluster **** of crap onscreen. (Pardon my French) I mean good god man, look at DM's screenshots on page 1. Look at the screenshot of Metro IE. Overlapping is not part of MSFT's Metro design language. It's one of the many things I pray to god they change before RTM. 

 

Anyway, this is alpha code. It probably won't look anything like this when finished. Let's see what happens before we get our knickers in a bunch...

f0rk_b0mb, I actually addressed this on the page before you.

 

The accusation that this is a UI or UX meant for tablets is entirely due to the Start menu's excision - nothing more OR less.  Otherwise, exactly how obvious is it to a desktop PC user that is not overly reliant on a pointing device?

Unless you actually KNOW that you are using touch-supporting hardware, and, instead, had a keyboard and mouse to use, what would YOU do when confronted with the very same UI?

 

I ask that question because I've been running Windows 8/8.1, as either primary OS or sole OS since the Consumer Preview.  I do everything that I did on Windows 7 - and a bit more besides, on practically the same hardware.  (What hardware changes I DID make had absolutely nothing to do with the OS - whatever.)  The hardware in question is, in fact, a traditional mid-tower that dates back largely to the Vista period - only the CPU, GPU, and discrete audio even are in the Windows 7 era.  Nothing whatever is current in terms of hardware.  Yet my software (mostly desktop applications and desktop games) could, in fact, care less - except in terms of fewer crashes and thus greater stability.

 

In fact, this was an argument I heard prior to even the Windows Developer Preview - and it had nothing to do with Windows or Microsoft.  The same criticism was, in fact, leveled hard at GNOME 3.0 - and for the exact same reason - the Windows-esque GNOME menu that had existed since the early days of GNOME (and which GNOME Classic retains) had been excised by default.  That very reasoning sounds silly on its face because, even then, touch-screen support in x86 hardware period - let alone hardware that could run a Linux distribution - was practically zero other than proprietary overlays.  Those same proprietary overlays didn't exist for Linux distributions - and still largely don't.  Yet that was EXACTLY what the GNOME developers were accused of.

 

Therefore, apply Occam's Razor - what got booted from Windows 8 that Windows 7 had?  The Start menu.  The Start menu was deliberately designed to attract the attention of pointing device users from the beginning, in Windows 95 (and NT 4.0 shortly afterward).  That is according to Microsoft itself.  However, in addition to attracting pointing devices, the Start menu has also attracted plenty of two other things - scoffing and scorn.  (In fact, it took fifteen years - and Windows 7 - for both to even die down - and it still largely threw all other interactions with the desktop - including keyboard-centric usage - under the bus.)  In other words, Microsoft created the problem; therefore, it had to solve it.  Enter ModernUI.

 

ModernUI serves three functions - oddly enough, touch support is NOT the primary function designed for it.  (Touch support had to happen anyway - however, ModernUI was not itself why.)

1.  ModernUI was a reset to the Windows UI on both desktops and servers.

2.  The UI was designed to be largely the same on everything that ran Windows - from phones and tablets to the server closet.

3.  On the non-ARM side (from tablets and netbooks to the server closet), not only was it designed to support all the hardware that Windows 7 did (and most of the hardware that even Vista and even XP did), but a great deal of the software that they did as well.

 

Point #3 is why touch-support (on the hardware side) had to happen - because the cost of such hardware was dropping, and it was becoming more prevalent - and NOT just in tablets.  (I have referred - constantly - to HP's TouchSmart desktops and AIOs; contrary to belief, they are around the same age as the Samsung ATIV 7 that was given out at BUILD 2012 preloaded with the Windows Developer Preview - yet shipped to retail - at the same time - with Windows 7 and a necessary S-View overlay (because touch support in Windows 7 was STILL largely awful); the same was true of the TouchSmarts.  They still include keyboards and mice - the SAME keyboards and mice included with the practically identical - except for touch support - Pavilion series desktops and AIOs.  Therefore, unless you knew about the touch-screen support ahead of time, WOULD you notice, merely by looking at the desktop?  Honestly, I didn't - and I was, in fact, looking for any tell-tales.  That is also why I look with extreme skepticism over ANY claim that Windows 8's touch support is obvious, as I HAVE used touch-screen hardware that still retained a keyboard and a pointing device.  The tell-tales aren't there - at all.)

 

Point #2 has nothing to do with touch, either - instead, it has everything to do with remoting into hardware - both desktops AND servers.  You may not even have a keyboard - of any sort - at your beck and call when accessing a desktop or server - and this is especially true if you are doing so from a tablet or smartphone (regardless of what OS the tablet or phone is running).  How much have ENTERPRISES been screaming about the high cost and proprietary nature of remote-desktop software - for both Windows desktops and servers alike?  Again, this is a problem largely handed over to Microsoft - they ARE the major force behind Windows on both desktop and server, after all - could they solve it?

 

Point #1 is, in fact, the most obvious one - the Start menu basically threw everybody except pointing-device-centric users under the bus.  Naturally, the pointing-device-centric wouldn't care - they were, after all, the ones being kissed-up to.  Despite the creation of PowerShell with Windows XP and Server 2003, practically ALL the documentation was on the Windows Server side of things - it is, literally, taking Windows 8 to actually HAVE some desktop documentation done; and this is an across-the-OSes scripting language that is both processor-neutral and even platform-neutral, and developed by Microsoft itself.  In other words, kissing up the the pointing device detracted from the keyboard, and that was entirely the Start menu's fault.  Touch support was not why the Start menu needed to go - the Start menu stomping all over the keyboard was.

[Denis W. Veteran]

 

This is an excellent move:

 

 

 

Yeah, I mean, I was just messing with you, but I don't know what to tell you.I understand your concerns, but personally I welcome a centralized way of switching between Metro and Desktop apps. 

 

 

Thank god, seriously. Though I must say it was amusing watching people presenting on their laptops fumble back and forth figuring out how to exit the Photos app.

[George P Global Moderator]

just installed it on a machine,and tested this functionality with a trackpad. simply moving the pointer to the bottom edge isn't enough to bring it up,even if you pause. you need to move the pointer down to the edge,pause,then move the pointer down again further, or if you don't want to pause, you could move the pointer down to the bottom edge, then change your down movement speed to a little faster.

That sounds a little weird to do, might have been better if it was like the charms in which case you'd move it down to the left corner and then move it to the right to bring it up. Maybe it just takes time to get used to doing it with the mouse, I saw a video that said you can also bring it up with winkey+T.

[Dot Matrix]

And it seems Mr. Dot Matrix cannot accept change when that change makes metro more usable in a traditional kb/mouse environment. So it's all the same thing, people have trouble accepting change to environments that they are fond of.

This change doesn't do much but add clutter to the screen. Kb+m users are going to go through the same motions that they would have needed to activate the metro task switcher to click back to the desktop.

Having the desktop taskbar appear over metro apps is nothing but unwarranted functionality. Metro apps should not be blended into the desktop.

[Kyang]

Thank god, seriously. Though I must say it was amusing watching people presenting on their laptops fumble back and forth figuring out how to exit the Photos app.

 

That's definitely one of the MS's fumbles.  They should've been clearer on educating the user about the UI, which we all know they haven't done well enough until 8.1.  The user just needed to hit the Start button like they have been for the past 18 years.

[cork1958]

I meant it by MS doing one thing, then reversing their decisions because of major consumer backlash. X1..Win8....

 

Backpedaling wasnt the correct term.

 

Back pedaling was definitely the correct term as that's exactly what they've been doing since releasing Windows 8. I mean, just look at all the fuss the no start button caused and everything has been escalating ever since!

 

Somebody sould fire the numb nuts that thought of this creation!! Windows 8 could almost make me like Vista!! :x