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Thoughts: Windows 8.1 Update 1 looks worse than ever before...

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#61 f0rk_b0mb

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 02:28

Your right, the purpose of Metro was to provide and immersive experience across all platforms.
The problem is, which you and Dot Matrix fail to see, is that Microsoft have failed big time in bringing that experience to the end user. Whether its a Enterprise user, A power user, or simply the old granny living next door. 

Like it or loathe it, these changes are MUCH NEEDED changes for everyone. Microsoft are finally listening to what users want, that includes Enterrprise and Power Users - and are working hard to fix them. Sure, whingers who splooge over how great Metro is on the desktop are going to hate on Microsoft, but - and these forums are the perfect example - only about 2 people out of 100 are going to be affected. 

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. - Spock 

Couldnt be further from the truth. 

 

They've lost the plot. They are trying to shoehorn desktop M&k features into a UI meant for tablets. Do you fail to see the issue at hand? I'm a complete Metro hater and even I can see this is nothing but lunacy!

 

The "correct" way of handling this would be to do what everybody's been saying since day one: give the user a choice of UI's, allow metro apps to run on the desktop so there's not 2 calculators, 2 IE's, etc. You get the jist. 

 

All Microsoft is doing is further complicating the UI and throwing a cluster ###### of crap onscreen. (Pardon my French) I mean good god man, look at DM's screenshots on page 1. Look at the screenshot of Metro IE. Overlapping is not part of MSFT's Metro design language. It's one of the many things I pray to god they change before RTM. 

 

Anyway, this is alpha code. It probably won't look anything like this when finished. Let's see what happens before we get our knickers in a bunch...




#62 gawicks

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 02:35

 Overlapping is not part of MSFT's Metro design language. It's one of the many things I pray to god they change before RTM. 

 

Overlapping on hover is the way it works in metro now too. Checkout the Charms and the metro task switcher they all overlap the app. Nothing is different here.



#63 contextfree

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 02:40

Also we know that store apps will be windowed in 9 and that some menu is in the works but the fact they're also extending the taskbar into the start screen right now says to me that they'll update it as well, new style or design in 9 so that people who still want to use the start screen and not the new menu will get a better fit. From the rumors it sounds like they're going to have 3 versions with 9. One for ARM devices and tablets that are probably 10" and smaller that is just metro 2.0 and no desktop or the desktop is at least turned off. The second is the hybrid mode with metro 2.0 plus the desktop for devices that can be a tablet and a laptop when needed. Then finally the desktop version with windowed store apps and the new menu be default.

 

Yeah, and I hope these "3 versions" are implemented the same way as the model changes we've seen in 8.1 and 8.1.1 have been - as just different defaults for a bunch of options that can be turned on and off individually. So, in the end, we have just one flexible Windows, with features and ways of working that can all be used together or not used to suit each person's preferences, task and context.



#64 f0rk_b0mb

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 02:53

Overlapping on hover is the way it works in metro now too. Checkout the Charms and the metro task switcher they all overlap the app. Nothing is different here.

 

Hmm...I completely forgot about that. tu shey. It's not as intrusive as the Metro IE screenshot tho.



#65 vcfan

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:17

You will NOT see the taskbar in metro unless you ABSOLUTELY intend to.  A brief overshoot won't bring it up, you have to hover there for a second to see it.

 

just installed it on a machine,and tested this functionality with a trackpad. simply moving the pointer to the bottom edge isn't enough to bring it up,even if you pause. you need to move the pointer down to the edge,pause,then move the pointer down again further, or if you don't want to pause, you could move the pointer down to the bottom edge, then change your down movement speed to a little faster.



#66 Kaze23

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:34

Uh? Obviously you're just scared of change. So stop whining and continue using Windows 8/8.1 if you can't handle these improvements.  I'm sure Microsoft knows what it's doing better than you do.

 

 

He's the biggest proponent of Windows 8/8.1 on Neowin. I'd say the people who are scared of change are the ones who somehow can't live without a Start menu.



#67 +Chris123NT

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:01

He's the biggest proponent of Windows 8/8.1 on Neowin. I'd say the people who are scared of change are the ones who somehow can't live without a Start menu.

And it seems Mr. Dot Matrix cannot accept change when that change makes metro more usable in a traditional kb/mouse environment.  So it's all the same thing, people have trouble accepting change to environments that they are fond of.



#68 +d5aqoëp

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:04

I would say this is a step in the right direction. Metro apps on desktop and resizing their windows functionality is coming. OP is not happy about it. Tough.

Microsoft can provide a customised version of Windows 8.1.1 to OP which is devoid of desktop mode and has Metro metro and only metro related stuff.

:p

#69 vcfan

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:05

heres some other tidbits

to select multiple tiles on the start screen, hold ctrl then click the tiles you want. I know some people asked about this.

another thing about using minimize in the title bar. the app minimizes,and you are dumped in the desktop view,even if you launched the app from the start screen. an icon will show on the taskbar even if you never pinned the app,just like when you open a desktop application,so you can easily switch between metro and desktop apps from the taskbar. if you want to stay in metro mode, you use the metro task switcher,and by clicking start to "minimize" app and go from app to start screen.

#70 PGHammer

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:34

They've lost the plot. They are trying to shoehorn desktop M&k features into a UI meant for tablets. Do you fail to see the issue at hand? I'm a complete Metro hater and even I can see this is nothing but lunacy!

 

The "correct" way of handling this would be to do what everybody's been saying since day one: give the user a choice of UI's, allow metro apps to run on the desktop so there's not 2 calculators, 2 IE's, etc. You get the jist. 

 

All Microsoft is doing is further complicating the UI and throwing a cluster **** of crap onscreen. (Pardon my French) I mean good god man, look at DM's screenshots on page 1. Look at the screenshot of Metro IE. Overlapping is not part of MSFT's Metro design language. It's one of the many things I pray to god they change before RTM. 

 

Anyway, this is alpha code. It probably won't look anything like this when finished. Let's see what happens before we get our knickers in a bunch...

f0rk_b0mb, I actually addressed this on the page before you.

 

The accusation that this is a UI or UX meant for tablets is entirely due to the Start menu's excision - nothing more OR less.  Otherwise, exactly how obvious is it to a desktop PC user that is not overly reliant on a pointing device?

Unless you actually KNOW that you are using touch-supporting hardware, and, instead, had a keyboard and mouse to use, what would YOU do when confronted with the very same UI?

 

I ask that question because I've been running Windows 8/8.1, as either primary OS or sole OS since the Consumer Preview.  I do everything that I did on Windows 7 - and a bit more besides, on practically the same hardware.  (What hardware changes I DID make had absolutely nothing to do with the OS - whatever.)  The hardware in question is, in fact, a traditional mid-tower that dates back largely to the Vista period - only the CPU, GPU, and discrete audio even are in the Windows 7 era.  Nothing whatever is current in terms of hardware.  Yet my software (mostly desktop applications and desktop games) could, in fact, care less - except in terms of fewer crashes and thus greater stability.

 

In fact, this was an argument I heard prior to even the Windows Developer Preview - and it had nothing to do with Windows or Microsoft.  The same criticism was, in fact, leveled hard at GNOME 3.0 - and for the exact same reason - the Windows-esque GNOME menu that had existed since the early days of GNOME (and which GNOME Classic retains) had been excised by default.  That very reasoning sounds silly on its face because, even then, touch-screen support in x86 hardware period - let alone hardware that could run a Linux distribution - was practically zero other than proprietary overlays.  Those same proprietary overlays didn't exist for Linux distributions - and still largely don't.  Yet that was EXACTLY what the GNOME developers were accused of.

 

Therefore, apply Occam's Razor - what got booted from Windows 8 that Windows 7 had?  The Start menu.  The Start menu was deliberately designed to attract the attention of pointing device users from the beginning, in Windows 95 (and NT 4.0 shortly afterward).  That is according to Microsoft itself.  However, in addition to attracting pointing devices, the Start menu has also attracted plenty of two other things - scoffing and scorn.  (In fact, it took fifteen years - and Windows 7 - for both to even die down - and it still largely threw all other interactions with the desktop - including keyboard-centric usage - under the bus.)  In other words, Microsoft created the problem; therefore, it had to solve it.  Enter ModernUI.

 

ModernUI serves three functions - oddly enough, touch support is NOT the primary function designed for it.  (Touch support had to happen anyway - however, ModernUI was not itself why.)

1.  ModernUI was a reset to the Windows UI on both desktops and servers.

2.  The UI was designed to be largely the same on everything that ran Windows - from phones and tablets to the server closet.

3.  On the non-ARM side (from tablets and netbooks to the server closet), not only was it designed to support all the hardware that Windows 7 did (and most of the hardware that even Vista and even XP did), but a great deal of the software that they did as well.

 

Point #3 is why touch-support (on the hardware side) had to happen - because the cost of such hardware was dropping, and it was becoming more prevalent - and NOT just in tablets.  (I have referred - constantly - to HP's TouchSmart desktops and AIOs; contrary to belief, they are around the same age as the Samsung ATIV 7 that was given out at BUILD 2012 preloaded with the Windows Developer Preview - yet shipped to retail - at the same time - with Windows 7 and a necessary S-View overlay (because touch support in Windows 7 was STILL largely awful); the same was true of the TouchSmarts.  They still include keyboards and mice - the SAME keyboards and mice included with the practically identical - except for touch support - Pavilion series desktops and AIOs.  Therefore, unless you knew about the touch-screen support ahead of time, WOULD you notice, merely by looking at the desktop?  Honestly, I didn't - and I was, in fact, looking for any tell-tales.  That is also why I look with extreme skepticism over ANY claim that Windows 8's touch support is obvious, as I HAVE used touch-screen hardware that still retained a keyboard and a pointing device.  The tell-tales aren't there - at all.)

 

Point #2 has nothing to do with touch, either - instead, it has everything to do with remoting into hardware - both desktops AND servers.  You may not even have a keyboard - of any sort - at your beck and call when accessing a desktop or server - and this is especially true if you are doing so from a tablet or smartphone (regardless of what OS the tablet or phone is running).  How much have ENTERPRISES been screaming about the high cost and proprietary nature of remote-desktop software - for both Windows desktops and servers alike?  Again, this is a problem largely handed over to Microsoft - they ARE the major force behind Windows on both desktop and server, after all - could they solve it?

 

Point #1 is, in fact, the most obvious one - the Start menu basically threw everybody except pointing-device-centric users under the bus.  Naturally, the pointing-device-centric wouldn't care - they were, after all, the ones being kissed-up to.  Despite the creation of PowerShell with Windows XP and Server 2003, practically ALL the documentation was on the Windows Server side of things - it is, literally, taking Windows 8 to actually HAVE some desktop documentation done; and this is an across-the-OSes scripting language that is both processor-neutral and even platform-neutral, and developed by Microsoft itself.  In other words, kissing up the the pointing device detracted from the keyboard, and that was entirely the Start menu's fault.  Touch support was not why the Start menu needed to go - the Start menu stomping all over the keyboard was.



#71 Denis W.

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 08:30

 

This is an excellent move:

 

 

 

Yeah, I mean, I was just messing with you, but I don't know what to tell you.I understand your concerns, but personally I welcome a centralized way of switching between Metro and Desktop apps. 

 

 

Thank god, seriously. Though I must say it was amusing watching people presenting on their laptops fumble back and forth figuring out how to exit the Photos app.



#72 George P

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:42

just installed it on a machine,and tested this functionality with a trackpad. simply moving the pointer to the bottom edge isn't enough to bring it up,even if you pause. you need to move the pointer down to the edge,pause,then move the pointer down again further, or if you don't want to pause, you could move the pointer down to the bottom edge, then change your down movement speed to a little faster.


That sounds a little weird to do, might have been better if it was like the charms in which case you'd move it down to the left corner and then move it to the right to bring it up. Maybe it just takes time to get used to doing it with the mouse, I saw a video that said you can also bring it up with winkey+T.

#73 OP Dot Matrix

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 13:36

And it seems Mr. Dot Matrix cannot accept change when that change makes metro more usable in a traditional kb/mouse environment. So it's all the same thing, people have trouble accepting change to environments that they are fond of.

This change doesn't do much but add clutter to the screen. Kb+m users are going to go through the same motions that they would have needed to activate the metro task switcher to click back to the desktop.

Having the desktop taskbar appear over metro apps is nothing but unwarranted functionality. Metro apps should not be blended into the desktop.

#74 Kyang

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 13:51

Thank god, seriously. Though I must say it was amusing watching people presenting on their laptops fumble back and forth figuring out how to exit the Photos app.

 

That's definitely one of the MS's fumbles.  They should've been clearer on educating the user about the UI, which we all know they haven't done well enough until 8.1.  The user just needed to hit the Start button like they have been for the past 18 years.



#75 cork1958

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 14:09

I meant it by MS doing one thing, then reversing their decisions because of major consumer backlash. X1..Win8....

 

Backpedaling wasnt the correct term.

 

Back pedaling was definitely the correct term as that's exactly what they've been doing since releasing Windows 8. I mean, just look at all the fuss the no start button caused and everything has been escalating ever since!

 

Somebody sould fire the numb nuts that thought of this creation!! Windows 8 could almost make me like Vista!! :x