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#46 vetneufuse

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 18:36

Hello,
Well, then I think you are missing the point of what this PC does!

You have a large SQL server with a lot of RAM and a lot of disks that have a lot of data
I have a small overclocked PC with (compared to that) a medium amount of RAM and one disk with no data (only Windows and that program I mentioned before)

Im sorry if I dont understand you but I just dont see how your scenario compares to mine. Maybe Im missing something.

no, I'm not missing the point... the point is no mater what you need to dedicate some RAM to the Host OS... doesn't mater if its SQL Server or software like this. You are complaining about over paging, I'm trying to tell you how to stop it by managing your RAM, actual memory management not what windows does to dynamically manage it... if you force it to use a range of RAM it should never page out, because it will never use past that amount of RAM




#47 OP +riahc3

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 19:32

Hello,

If this is the case then I fail to understand why you're adding another SSD just for a page file... It seems you're wasting components and money...

Well, then the solution would be to add more RAM. We are doing this already (not to the full extent because of costs) but as a "cost cutter" a SSD also helps, right?
 
 

riahc3, you appear to be purposefully confusing various aspects of a system's configuration in hopes that we just agree to your original question.
 
It is also clear to me that you do not understand how the various hardware components of a Windows PC actually interact with each other; and you have yet to respond with the types of memory consumption configurations the SolidWorks software provides.
 
Bottom line: You need to *reconfigure* your existing system.  The general consensus is that you do not need another disk drive.

Your post has reminded me of a essay generator.

Basically you read nothing from the thread, did no research into the software in question and read no replies. Thats what it seems to be at least.

Like I (and others mention) the program grows beyond a 32GB RAM and into a 40GB+ page file. This means it is consuming 72GB (not of raw RAM because like mentioned the RAM unloads chunk to the page file) I need to "reconfigure" my system is pretty obvious; We start with adding more RAM but because it would explode the budget, we take a cost cutting route of adding a SSD.
 
 

no, I'm not missing the point... the point is no mater what you need to dedicate some RAM to the Host OS... doesn't mater if its SQL Server or software like this. You are complaining about over paging, I'm trying to tell you how to stop it by managing your RAM, actual memory management not what windows does to dynamically manage it... if you force it to use a range of RAM it should never page out, because it will never use past that amount of RAM

OK, thats maybe what Im not understanding; Why would I say "limit yourself to 32GB"? Are you saying this to avoid the SSD paging at a cost of performance? Is that what you mean?

If so, I think 50 bucks vs limiting performance is worth it, personally. Let me see if I understood you correctly then Ill continue :)

BTW, thank you all for your advice and opinions. They help me a lot think about the problem :)

#48 Nas

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 23:22

riahc3, on 06 Mar 2014 - 13:32, said:riahc3, on 06 Mar 2014 - 13:32, said:riahc3, on 06 Mar 2014 - 13:32, said:

Basically you read nothing from the thread, did no research into the software in question and read no replies. Thats what it seems to be at least.

Like I (and others mention) the program grows beyond a 32GB RAM and into a 40GB+ page file. This means it is consuming 72GB (not of raw RAM because like mentioned the RAM unloads chunk to the page file) I need to "reconfigure" my system is pretty obvious; We start with adding more RAM but because it would explode the budget, we take a cost cutting route of adding a SSD.

I actually read up on the entire 3 pages of responses before stating what I said.  Also, I'm also casually familiar with SolidWorks -- I've just never ran into the types of problem that you're describing.

 

There are parallels between SQL Server's memory management capabilities and those that (presumably exist) in SolidWorks.  Left unchecked (read: misconfigured) then the software would naturally consume as many resources as is made available to it via the OS.  Any program that hits the limits of its operating environment begins to error out or experience severe performance bottlenecks.  In the case of SolidWorks, it seems to defer those responsibilities to the OS -- hence how it consumes an ever-increasing amount of memory.  (The program does not know the difference between physical and virtual memory [page file].  It only knows that space is available.)

 

You can spend $5000 on more RAM, but SolidWorks will keep consuming as much memory as is available until it feels satisfied.

 

Your thoughts are either, "wow this program is hungry" or "wow I should really configure my SolidWorks environment properly."  I cannot speak for your business needs for SolidWorks over other CAD software, but I can speak to the idea that you must *really* dig into how SolidWorks is configured, review all of its configuration settings (both presented in the GUI and hidden in configuration files), and make sure you place a hard limit on how many resources the overall program is allowed to consume.  (You should also coordinate with SolidWorks directly if such a setting is too obscure... you may get a patch from them to fix the memory leak, or simply upgrade/downgrade to a version that operates properly within your given environment.)

 

Bottom line: Throwing more hardware at a software problem does not fix the software configuration problem.



#49 vetneufuse

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:25

Hello,
Well, then the solution would be to add more RAM. We are doing this already (not to the full extent because of costs) but as a "cost cutter" a SSD also helps, right?
 
 
Your post has reminded me of a essay generator.

Basically you read nothing from the thread, did no research into the software in question and read no replies. Thats what it seems to be at least.

Like I (and others mention) the program grows beyond a 32GB RAM and into a 40GB+ page file. This means it is consuming 72GB (not of raw RAM because like mentioned the RAM unloads chunk to the page file) I need to "reconfigure" my system is pretty obvious; We start with adding more RAM but because it would explode the budget, we take a cost cutting route of adding a SSD.
 
 
OK, thats maybe what Im not understanding; Why would I say "limit yourself to 32GB"? Are you saying this to avoid the SSD paging at a cost of performance? Is that what you mean?

If so, I think 50 bucks vs limiting performance is worth it, personally. Let me see if I understood you correctly then Ill continue :)

BTW, thank you all for your advice and opinions. They help me a lot think about the problem :)

any time you have to page out, you hurt performance anyways... anything that isn't direct memory access is slower, even if it is to an SSD... the way to solve the problem is either get more RAM (which by best practice you should still limit the app's memory usage, even with 1TB of RAM you should still have a MAX usage for the program just so the OS doesn't start paging out itself)... or use the amount you have now, and put the limiter in place and stop paging out excessively



#50 OP +riahc3

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:44

Hello,

I actually read up on the entire 3 pages of responses before stating what I said.  Also, I'm also casually familiar with SolidWorks -- I've just never ran into the types of problem that you're describing.
 
There are parallels between SQL Server's memory management capabilities and those that (presumably exist) in SolidWorks.  Left unchecked (read: misconfigured) then the software would naturally consume as many resources as is made available to it via the OS.  Any program that hits the limits of its operating environment begins to error out or experience severe performance bottlenecks.  In the case of SolidWorks, it seems to defer those responsibilities to the OS -- hence how it consumes an ever-increasing amount of memory.  (The program does not know the difference between physical and virtual memory [page file].  It only knows that space is available.)
 
You can spend $5000 on more RAM, but SolidWorks will keep consuming as much memory as is available until it feels satisfied.
 
Your thoughts are either, "wow this program is hungry" or "wow I should really configure my SolidWorks environment properly."  I cannot speak for your business needs for SolidWorks over other CAD software, but I can speak to the idea that you must *really* dig into how SolidWorks is configured, review all of its configuration settings (both presented in the GUI and hidden in configuration files), and make sure you place a hard limit on how many resources the overall program is allowed to consume.  (You should also coordinate with SolidWorks directly if such a setting is too obscure... you may get a patch from them to fix the memory leak, or simply upgrade/downgrade to a version that operates properly within your given environment.)
 
Bottom line: Throwing more hardware at a software problem does not fix the software configuration problem.

Now this is a way better post! :)

I personally just do IT; I dont work with Solidworks and didnt even see it till about 6 months ago. When building this machine which was geared towards it, I read about softtweaks but since I didnt understand what my collegues need or want (and of course, I dont know or care what the program does), I went a hardware route. Maybe this would be a good time for software tweaks like you mentioned.

Well, since most of you are bent on limiting the program's RAM, I guess when we do this (upgrade the RAM) Ill go ahead and limit it. I gotta read on how to optimize it for Simulation AND also if it affects my collegues' needs.

#51 Jlobb2

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:23

What kind of processor is in this desktop?  Does it support more than 32GB of ram?



#52 OP +riahc3

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:29

Hello,

What kind of processor is in this desktop?  Does it support more than 32GB of ram?

Both the chipset and processor accept a max of 64GB.

#53 bledd

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:36

SSD is the perfect place for a pagefile.

 

If anything, get more ram and get another SSD, dedicated for the pagefile.

 

 

 

I've never used the program in question, but check if it's got options for working drives or scratch disks.  In Photoshop, you can specify the drive/folder for it to use as a 'paging' area



#54 OP +riahc3

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 11:08

Hello,

SSD is the perfect place for a pagefile.
 
If anything, get more ram and get another SSD, dedicated for the pagefile.
 
 
 
I've never used the program in question, but check if it's got options for working drives or scratch disks.  In Photoshop, you can specify the drive/folder for it to use as a 'paging' area

The opinions back and forth are amazing.

I should have made a poll.

#55 Torolol

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 11:47

Get a dedicated HDD? for page file?

got a dedicated RAM-disk, a ram disk that pretend to be a HDD at hardware level,

not a software based one that consuming your main RAM.

 

no more spinning-noise of traditional HDD or any possible hardware failure due to physical shock like an earthquake,
no more worry about NAND cells life cycles or financial burden replacing your SSD at regular intervals,
no other hassle configuring the OS, as OS would just assumes that just another ready-to-use storage devices.

but its a niche product i only found the small capacity one (only 64GB, and thats using ancient DDR2),
haven't seen a big capacity (min 512 GB), commercial RAM-drive anywhere, yet.
 



#56 +LogicalApex

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 16:22

Hello,
Now this is a way better post! :)

I personally just do IT; I dont work with Solidworks and didnt even see it till about 6 months ago. When building this machine which was geared towards it, I read about softtweaks but since I didnt understand what my collegues need or want (and of course, I dont know or care what the program does), I went a hardware route. Maybe this would be a good time for software tweaks like you mentioned.

Well, since most of you are bent on limiting the program's RAM, I guess when we do this (upgrade the RAM) Ill go ahead and limit it. I gotta read on how to optimize it for Simulation AND also if it affects my collegues' needs.

This is the core of your problem... If you have no care to know how the program you're building the hardware for utilizes the hardware then you're going to end up wasting resources and not getting the results expected...

 

You need to understand the program your optimizing the hardware for to get them to perform optimally together... There is a reason large SQL DBs are run from 15K RPM SAS drives and not consumer grade 7.2K RPM SATA drives, for instance. Knowing the limits of the hardware along side the software demands for your usage case is important. You don't need SAS drives to push SQL server on your local machine with just you, but the same isn't true for a 10K concurrent user system powering a corporate DB holding TBs of data.



#57 OP +riahc3

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 16:58

Hello,

This is the core of your problem... If you have no care to know how the program you're building the hardware for utilizes the hardware then you're going to end up wasting resources and not getting the results expected...
 
You need to understand the program your optimizing the hardware for to get them to perform optimally together... There is a reason large SQL DBs are run from 15K RPM SAS drives and not consumer grade 7.2K RPM SATA drives, for instance. Knowing the limits of the hardware along side the software demands for your usage case is important. You don't need SAS drives to push SQL server on your local machine with just you, but the same isn't true for a 10K concurrent user system powering a corporate DB holding TBs of data.

The program I built the hardware for only asked initially for CPU...because I looked for best optimization.

As a matter of fact, the RAM inside that PC is just some OEM POS. We used it because it was already here and because RAM was not a issue at the time.

That being said, I have to look up some tweaks for the program before hand of buying a storage device of some kind and since this thread is shifting left and right.

#58 +snaphat (Myles Landwehr)

snaphat (Myles Landwehr)

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 00:03

I've never used SolidWorks myself, but the Mechis here use it. I looked it up briefly and it appears to me that the excessive ram usage is the result of the number of nodes in the mesh in conjunction with the simulations done on that mesh (flow or otherwise). Seems to me you aren't going to be able to limit the memory without reducing the the mesh nodes or changing how the simulation is done. I don't personally know if the latter is even possible as I'm not a domain expert, but the former should be. I'm not really sure if this is a solution though because perhaps the complexity of the mesh is needed. In that case you are probably out of luck without an additional disk or ssd for scratch.

 

Though many people here are saying it is a software issue, they aren't taking into account that this is simulation software and the memory footprints of such things can be absolutely huge. We run hardware simulators here that eat 128+GB of physical memory, can run for days or weeks, and can fill up an entire disk with logs in just one run. It seems to me that depending on what exactly you are simulating, SolidWorks could be thrown on a server with 256GB of physical memory, TB of swap, and then set to run for weeks or a month.



#59 OP +riahc3

riahc3

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 07:02

Hello,

I've never used SolidWorks myself, but the Mechis here use it. I looked it up briefly and it appears to me that the excessive ram usage is the result of the number of nodes in the mesh in conjunction with the simulations done on that mesh (flow or otherwise). Seems to me you aren't going to be able to limit the memory without reducing the the mesh nodes or changing how the simulation is done. I don't personally know if the latter is even possible as I'm not a domain expert, but the former should be. I'm not really sure if this is a solution though because perhaps the complexity of the mesh is needed. In that case you are probably out of luck without an additional disk or ssd for scratch.
 
Though many people here are saying it is a software issue, they aren't taking into account that this is simulation software and the memory footprints of such things can be absolutely huge. We run hardware simulators here that eat 128+GB of physical memory, can run for days or weeks, and can fill up an entire disk with logs in just one run. It seems to me that depending on what exactly you are simulating, SolidWorks could be thrown on a server with 256GB of physical memory, TB of swap, and then set to run for weeks or a month.

Thank you for looking into it and now understanding snaphat :)

When I told my boss about limiting the RAM for Solidworks because "the OS needed it" he looked at me as in ":huh: what the ###### are you talking about; keep looking into it" :laugh: I know the models are built are pretty complex but I also know that AFAIK no software configuration optimizations have been made. So maybe that's something that has be looked into.



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