Facing the Windows XP apocalypse ?

[Andre S. Veteran]

It is.  And that is something nice about XP on newer systems.. its far less resource intensive.  For those that need to power through something.. it does work well.

Windows XP lacks many of the performance optimisations introduced in later editions, including being smarter with new hardware like SSDs and multicore CPUs. Most people running XP are running the 32-bit version which of course cannot handle large amounts of RAM. Windows XP has very little support for any GPU acceleration so it actually uses a lot more CPU for UI rendering and is less responsive. Finally Windows XP is pretty dumb about paging to disk compared to new systems.

 

The idea that a system that uses less resources is faster is simply not true - it's actually contrary to basic algorithmic principles. People looking for the best performance should use the latest version of Windows.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Limemaster92 they just talked about the desktop composition and not animation and fades. All I'm talking about just fades and animations. Without them Windows is snappier.

[chillipig]

"anti-malware program; some experts recommend using two, since one may find things the other misses."

 

What experts are these?  You sure and the hell should not run 2 active running security based software -- That clearly is no expert if they are suggesting such a thing.  Now if you want a non active scanner to also scan some exes before you run, ok - but running 2 active antivirus/malware/firewalls has never been a good idea.  If your going to make a statement like that - you need to be CLEAR about how to run the 2nd one as a offline/passive type scanner.

Surprised no-one else has commented on this. Your average PC shop customer wouldn't grasp running the second AV passively and end up with chronic problems/BSOD etc. I hear it every so often from customers, "Yes its slow but it couldn't be a virus as I have Norton Internet Security 2006, bought it with the computer and I've put Free AVG on too because my Uncle's cat told me it was WAY BETTER than....".etc etc. 

[Dot Matrix]

I also don't get what the big uproar is.

 

XP suddenly won't bomb out and stop working...

 

Either upgrade to Windows 7 if you're on the internet, or leave it alone. End of story.

Basically, it's because it's still somewhat widely used. For whatever reason, people are still using it as their daily driver, and with Microsoft cutting off support, those people are going to quickly find themselves with their ends flapping in the wind.

[The Evil Overlord]

Surprised no-one else has commented on this. Your average PC shop customer wouldn't grasp running the second AV passively and end up with chronic problems/BSOD etc. I hear it every so often from customers, "Yes its slow but it couldn't be a virus as I have Norton Internet Security 2006, bought it with the computer and I've put Free AVG on too because my Uncle's cat told me it was WAY BETTER than....".etc etc. 

I didn't as I've tried running 2 scanners on xp and it did exactly what you mentioned, stuck with one suite and had a couple of scanners saved but not installed and running 'just in case'

And partly I used to come here whenever I was having an issue with xp, and look through Bud's posts to see if he's addressed it

I'll admit he's not a god, but he is a personal hero for me :)

[sinetheo]

Really don't understand the furore about upgrading from XP. People didn't have this kind of issue upgrading from earlier versions of Windows, so why is XP so special?

 

It's a dinosaur, get over it and upgrade.

 

Here is why XP is so special.

 

For the record I am an Xp to Windows 7 migration consultant and have made money off these companies. 

 

It is not XP, but the times that have changed when XP came out and matured.

 

1. Companies have heavily downsized their I.T. departments and relied on automation to replace workers. They used to have 1 IT employee per 100 users with no central management or automation tools before XP. Now we have at some 1 IT employee per 2,000 users! With SCCM, Active Directory, and others companies have found they can do more with less. Upgrading a platform now is unfeasible with their staff levels compared to the past. You can't upgrade an OS yet so what can you do when you have 35,000 users in 18 sites? Spend a f****ton of money that the cost accountants, shareholders, and CEO will fight tooth and nail! In 1999 you had 5x the amount of employees on all the sites to upgrade. Today you do not.

 

2.  XP was the first really good OS. It was based off NT. It had security, group policies, user accounts, real multitasking, memory management, etc. Why fix what works so well for so long?

 

3. There is no reason to change. No Return on investment compared to past products. Why spend money to upgrade mission critical absolutely MUST HAVE APPS with something that does the same thing only worse and untested??! How can it raise the share price? How can it save the accountants money? How can it help secretaries type faster or engineers draft drawings faster?? There is no answer to this so it gets thrown out.

 

In comparison the benefits to Windows 95 were incredible with the amount of more apps you could run. XP brought reliability, less crashing, and increased security, as well as manageability so you can fire IT workers and script their jobs etc.

 

4.  It is a royal pain and a very very expensive $$$$ pain in the rear end to upgrade. Where I am working they had to hire 3 temp project managers + 8 temp workers (fly them to sites, pay for rental card, pay for hotel, pay for food, etc) all in the last few months and until May. We will not be finished on time I am afraid. We need to mail deployment capture devices. We need to have war room technicians. We need to have sys admins install software remotely. We need to test things and report bugs, we need to backup Office .PST files and their mydocs of every freaking single worker. All for no reason other than MS being a bully according to management and hurting the profitability of our company. Windows 7 offers little to no benefit over the pains to do all of this.

 

5. Corporations no longer focus on profit. They now focus on raising the stock price only. In accounting this means magic ratio's of ever decreasing expenses (things that cost money) and an ever increasing amount of assets (things that make money, or are money) so shareholders can sell them if they can't meet quarterly quotas etc. IT is an expensive not an asset. Computers cost money! Being cheap makes money! CEO's get fired for spending too much. Get a freaking porshe from a bonus by letting works go and keeping ancient equipment around. The demand to upgrade IT is really low now compared to the past for this reason alone.

 

6. The Great Recession. Consumers will keep what works now since they can no longer tap into their home mortgage for free money like they did in 2004. Companies share prices (the only thing that matters in 2014) are still playing catchup to 2008. IT will lower the price as the Wall Street trading programs calculate expenses vs assets. IT is always a cost with 0 benefit etc. So if the shareprice is down IT is cut and computers are never ever upgraded as the CEO can loose his job.

 

7. For baby boomers if it aint broke do not fix it. Their computers work fine so why change?

 

So yes XP is popular and there is a strong resistance to change. The 1990's are over. Computers that were once exciting that could do so much and bring great productivity are done. OS upgrades that could bring so much value and do more are no longer capable. XP is as productive as 8 so why change? The economy sucks. Shareholders and bankers have company accountants by the balls when it comes to uneccesary spending. We hit hte end of constant CPU improvements too.

 

8. Cell Phones are cool. Computers are not. People who once were glued to myspace and checking email on their XP boxes a decade ago now go into facebook and check email with their phones.

 

So the XP age was the Ford model T equivalent. It means maturity. We have a standard now and as a result cars are standardized and upgraded less and same now with computers

[Raa]

Basically, it's because it's still somewhat widely used. For whatever reason, people are still using it as their daily driver, and with Microsoft cutting off support, those people are going to quickly find themselves with their ends flapping in the wind.

It still surprises me it's *that* widely used.

Sure I admit I've been doing a slew of XP to 7 upgrades, but still... not like people haven't known or anything!

[sinetheo]

It still surprises me it's *that* widely used.

Sure I admit I've been doing a slew of XP to 7 upgrades, but still... not like people haven't known or anything!

 

Dude people dont know. Or if they are a corp they have great reasons to regret and not want to upgrade. Read my post above yours why?

 

Consumers do not go to neowin, tomshardware. slashdot.org, theregister.uk, etc. If they hit the power button and their P4 with 512 megs of ram boots up and IE 8 loads facebook they do not even think about it. Like a blender you only replace it when it breaks. XP was a great Os for its time and is too good. So good people see no reason to change and they wont until their machine mysteriously is so slow it is unusable or stops working altogether.

 

In 2024 if that XP machine still turns on and facebook loads guess what? They will still use XP even then lol

[Dot Matrix]

Sinetheo, You should really take back that "XP is just as productive as 8, so why change?" Because, that is in no way true. Windows 7, and 8 are true champions of multitasking and workflow. Windows Search to many users is worlds better than manually digging through the OS to find things, Window management with window snapping is without a doubt better than the horrible manual window management on XP. Windows 7, and 8 are also better designed with increased security, and stability. Windows XP suffers greatly from Windows Rot, whereas 7 and 8 do not.

 

There are many, many reasons to switch. The times are a' changin', those baby boomers can moan all they want, but IT is full of constant change. You can't be a computer tech and think "Well, this is "good enough," so, oh well..."

[Albert]

i hate win xp because of it's hippies color scheme of a ui theme. other than that, i'm ok with it and anyone want to use it beyond microsofties' support expiry. apocalypse my big hairy posterior.

 

win 8. now that's one os you can _really_ hate. with good reasons.

[sinetheo]

Sinetheo, You should really take back that "XP is just as productive as 8, so why change?" Because, that is in no way true. Windows 7, and 8 are true champions of multitasking and workflow. Windows Search to many users is worlds better than manually digging through the OS to find things, Window management with window snapping is without a doubt better than the horrible manual window management on XP. Windows 7, and 8 are also better designed with increased security, and stability. Windows XP suffers greatly from Windows Rot, whereas 7 and 8 do not.

 

There are many, many reasons to switch. The times are a' changin', those baby boomers can moan all they want, but IT is full of constant change. You can't be a computer tech and think "Well, this is "good enough," so, oh well..."

I know we butted heads before on this subject on other news.

 

For the record I do not run XP at home. But I repeat what others tell me.

 

Let's compare shall we what Windows 7 brings to my client (since it is my job to support these users to a newer edition of Windows). Ok I have instant search. Whoopie do both secretaries can now find pics of the office halloween party of 2010 that the site director wants to print out for a card. Aero side by side? Ok users can manually do that themselves. It only takes a few seconds longer. Office 2013 support? Users do not like the ribbon and prefer office 2003 as they are used to it. We are just upgrading them to 2007 now and they whine and complain they can't find anything. It is more secure. Wahoo I am the only IT on site part time so only I give a rats a** as no one else cares.

 

What does my client care? Does it raise the share price? No. Does it help secretaries type quicker? No. Does it help the agents resolve handle time quicker on the phones? No. Does it make the site director mysteriously write more reports and multitask better to generate more venue? No. 

 

So it costs money and offers benefits that raise less than the cost and pain of paying millions for +20 temp workers, assistant project managers, techs, war room techs, and interrupting and ruining metrics of the whole IT department all for something that still works fine??!

 

They are mad at MS for ending support. Not angry at themselves. If XP was still supported they would use it for another 13 years well into the 2020's. It works and gets the job done and costs nothing and gives the CEO and cost accountants a raise for not upgrading year after year.

 

FYI they started the migration a year ago and where going full ahead in October. The CEO and board pulled the plug and said NO! Christmas was too critical for business interruptions and what they had worked just fine was the second reason. They waited until 2 weeks ago to get started.

 

I plan to work 70 hour weeks to get 35,000 all done now.

[Dot Matrix]

I know we butted heads before on this subject on other news.

 

For the record I do not run XP at home. But I repeat what others tell me.

 

Let's compare shall we what Windows 7 brings to my client (since it is my job to support these users to a newer edition of Windows). Ok I have instant search. Whoopie do both secretaries can now find pics of the office halloween party of 2010 that the site director wants to print out for a card. Aero side by side? Ok users can manually do that themselves. It only takes a few seconds longer. Office 2013 support? Users do not like the ribbon and prefer office 2003 as they are used to it. We are just upgrading them to 2007 now and they whine and complain they can't find anything. It is more secure. Wahoo I am the only IT on site part time so only I give a rats a** as no one else cares.

 

What does my client care? Does it raise the share price? No. Does it help secretaries type quicker? No. Does it help the agents resolve handle time quicker on the phones? No. Does it make the site director mysteriously write more reports and multitask better to generate more venue? No. 

 

So it costs money and offers benefits that raise less than the cost and pain of paying millions for +20 temp workers, assistant project managers, techs, war room techs, and interrupting and ruining metrics of the whole IT department all for something that still works fine??!

 

They are mad at MS for ending support. Not angry at themselves. If XP was still supported they would use it for another 13 years well into the 2020's. It works and gets the job done and costs nothing and gives the CEO and cost accountants a raise for not upgrading year after year.

 

FYI they started the migration a year ago and where going full ahead in October. The CEO and board pulled the plug and said NO! Christmas was too critical for business interruptions and what they had worked just fine was the second reason. They waited until 2 weeks ago to get started.

 

I plan to work 70 hour weeks to get 35,000 all done now.

With this logic, it sounds like your company might be better of deploying typewriters. I hate to be snide, but this type of logic isn't going to get you or your workers anywhere. Sit still long enough, and you'll quickly find yourself replaced with someone who is willing to learn new things, and upgrade their workflow.

 

The only ones you should be mad at are yourselves. Becoming contempt isn't helping you or your customers. You should be providing training along with your upgrades. You can't jus throw your users into the deep end, and expect them to be happy. If you're only now upgrading to Office 2007, then you're way behind the curve. And that isn't healthy.

[Raa]

Dude people dont know. 

If they hit the power button and their P4 with 512 megs of ram boots up and IE 8 loads facebook they do not even think about it.

Therein lies the problem. It doesn't work and people are asking why.

[sinetheo]

Therein lies the problem. It doesn't work and people are asking why.

Solution then is simple.

 

They buy a new computer with a more modern version of Windows. After all that is how their fridge, car, and other appliances work right? 

 

Yes a computer is more complicated but they do not know that. All they know is they have an appliance that turns pretty blue and gets them on the net when the hit the magic power button and click on the blue E for E-nternet. Just how it is with these folk.

[sinetheo]

With this logic, it sounds like your company might be better of deploying typewriters. I hate to be snide, but this type of logic isn't going to get you or your workers anywhere. Sit still long enough, and you'll quickly find yourself replaced with someone who is willing to learn new things, and upgrade their workflow.

 

The only ones you should be mad at are yourselves. Becoming contempt isn't helping you or your customers. You should be providing training along with your upgrades. You can't jus throw your users into the deep end, and expect them to be happy. If you're only now upgrading to Office 2007, then you're way behind the curve. And that isn't healthy.

 

The CEO made that decision because as a call center company they have BestBuy and insurance companies who have open enrollement that end January 1st. They didn't want interruption and have these big customers leave due to Windows 7 causing an issue.

 

Switch earlier you say? Why. Their call center software works fine under XP and there is no reason too.

 

No I am for having an up to date infrastructure. For home users who do not have IT departments Windows 7/8 is MUCH MORE SECURE. But for corps these +20 employees will be flying, freaking renting cars, eating, in addition to helping each site out. I mean seriously that is NOT cheap. 

 

Yes a company has to spend that each and every upgrade.

 

So unless there is a HUGE benefit that increases insane productivity it will be resisted and shot down by accounitng/finance/CEO's and shareholders.

 

Was it Beverly Hills cop that had this quote?: Money talks sh*t walks

 

Yes companies Dot Matrix do not value IT anymore and view it as a commodity. Many are the younger gen Y too who have never used a typewritter so they are ignorant on what productivity benefits a computer does sigh. THey have never had to file records by hand, throw out paper and start over on a typewritter, or use a calculator for +500 cost centers to balance an accounting book.

[ThaCrip]

Ditto that.. Vista was pretty bad until SP2 (XP sucked at first too), actually rather good now but tainted by its bad rep and 7's still better anyway plus plenty of support life left in it so no point anymore. Runs pretty decently on older hardware unless you got something really old with only like 512MB or something, and frankly XP and most current Linux desktops run like ass on those too.. a single tab of a current web browser will gobble that up in no time flat, never mind other background services. Time to upgrade/replace those junkers.

 

Agreed. anyone with WinXP and 512MB of RAM (and probably 1GB for that matter to) is probably best off putting something like Lubuntu Linux on it and it will be a decent enough basic internet machine then.

 

i got Lubuntu on my PC i got from 2001 (Athlon 1.2ghz CPU/1GB of RAM) as it's a backup for very basic internet use in case my main PC goes down and the hardware is not new enough to put Vista/7 on either so Linux is the only realistic choice for hardware that old.

[adrynalyne]

The CEO made that decision because as a call center company they have BestBuy and insurance companies who have open enrollement that end January 1st. They didn't want interruption and have these big customers leave due to Windows 7 causing an issue.

 

Switch earlier you say? Why. Their call center software works fine under XP and there is no reason too.

 

No I am for having an up to date infrastructure. For home users who do not have IT departments Windows 7/8 is MUCH MORE SECURE. But for corps these +20 employees will be flying, freaking renting cars, eating, in addition to helping each site out. I mean seriously that is NOT cheap. 

 

Yes a company has to spend that each and every upgrade.

 

So unless there is a HUGE benefit that increases insane productivity it will be resisted and shot down by accounitng/finance/CEO's and shareholders.

 

Was it Beverly Hills cop that had this quote?: Money talks sh*t walks

 

Yes companies Dot Matrix do not value IT anymore and view it as a commodity. Many are the younger gen Y too who have never used a typewritter so they are ignorant on what productivity benefits a computer does sigh. THey have never had to file records by hand, throw out paper and start over on a typewritter, or use a calculator for +500 cost centers to balance an accounting book.

 

 

Do you remember when the Blaster worm hit?

 

I worked in a call center doing Windows support.  Not only did we get swamped with calls at an exponential level, but a ton of our machines got hit by it too.  Why?  Because the company doing support (it was Convergys) took TOO long testing the the hotfix before deploying it to the network.  Do you really think that cannot happen again, and even worse, there be no hotfix for it?

 

Maybe the CEO should have weighed the disruption Windows 7 could cause with what a 0-day that gets through will cause.

[Raa]

Solution then is simple.

 

They buy a new computer

I just upgrade their O/S (and computer if needed) and problem solved. (Y)

[sinetheo]

Do you remember when the Blaster worm hit?

 

I worked in a call center doing Windows support.  Not only did we get swamped with calls at an exponential level, but a ton of our machines got hit by it too.  Why?  Because the company doing support (it was Convergys) took TOO long testing the the hotfix before deploying it to the network.  Do you really think that cannot happen again, and even worse, there be no hotfix for it?

 

Maybe the CEO should have weighed the disruption Windows 7 could cause with what a 0-day that gets through will cause.

Nope

 

He will just fire me and blame me for this and give himself a bonus from being so smart with his brilliant ideas. After all I am a cost center who doesn't add value since I work in IT

[adrynalyne]

Nope

 

He will just fire me and blame me for this and give himself a bonus from being so smart with his brilliant ideas. After all I am a cost center who doesn't add value since I work in IT

Sounds like a company destined to fail.

[sinetheo]

More like sounds like very other company out there.

 

Sadly economics too. Your value and salary are based on what value you bring to the table. If they are a fishing company like BumbleBee their fishermen and boats will get top priority. If you are facebook then if you are technical YOU will be tip priority. Many ISP's though in Silicon Valley checked usage as late as 2012 and XP even in new companies outdid Win 7 by a large margin there!

 

Too many apps and complexity even in tech companies with bean counters resistant to change.

 

Spiel of benefits of upgrading boil down too ... Security risk?! I never heard any with XP??! If there were no one would have used it for over 10 years. Are you saying you are incompentent! Do you I need to hire someone else who can keep XP secure instead?

 

Good companies have CIO's who can tell the accountants and even the CEO to go f*ck himself when being stupid like this. But needless to say if the company is not a tech one they do not care one bit. The IT guy is the dreaded cost and an Indian h1b1 visa can secure it fine if you can't do it in their minds.

 

Maybe I am being too pessimistic on this? But folks those who are whining THEY ARE STUPID AND SHOULD GO OUT OF BUSINESS have never worked in a corporate environment in a publically traded company. 

 

90% of them do not care about computers at all and are obsessed with cost cutting and keeping things they way there except in their own projects. Bumblebee will value fisherman just like Peter Pan will value peanut farmers. Computers are second thought to them

[Dot Matrix]

The CEO made that decision because as a call center company they have BestBuy and insurance companies who have open enrollement that end January 1st. They didn't want interruption and have these big customers leave due to Windows 7 causing an issue.

 

Switch earlier you say? Why. Their call center software works fine under XP and there is no reason too.

 

No I am for having an up to date infrastructure. For home users who do not have IT departments Windows 7/8 is MUCH MORE SECURE. But for corps these +20 employees will be flying, freaking renting cars, eating, in addition to helping each site out. I mean seriously that is NOT cheap. 

 

Yes a company has to spend that each and every upgrade.

 

So unless there is a HUGE benefit that increases insane productivity it will be resisted and shot down by accounitng/finance/CEO's and shareholders.

 

Was it Beverly Hills cop that had this quote?: Money talks sh*t walks

 

Yes companies Dot Matrix do not value IT anymore and view it as a commodity. Many are the younger gen Y too who have never used a typewritter so they are ignorant on what productivity benefits a computer does sigh. THey have never had to file records by hand, throw out paper and start over on a typewritter, or use a calculator for +500 cost centers to balance an accounting book.

I work for a call center company right now, and ours has not been shy about ditching XP support. Employees got an email sent out at the beginning of the year that states no XP machines, VMs, RDPs, etc will be allowed on the network after April 8th, under no circumstances. Our company, and the companies we serve, have yet to be disrupted by these upgrades.

 

A properly trained and run IT department should be able to do user upgrades without service interruption. If not, then you have some issues, and they're not Microsoft's problems. Call Microsoft a bully all you want, but they should have rightfully cut support years ago for XP, you should be thrilled that they fed you this long. There's just no excuses not to upgrade now.  

[LimeMaster]

Limemaster92 they just talked about the desktop composition and not animation and fades. All I'm talking about just fades and animations. Without them Windows is snappier.

They talked about hardware acceleration for a bit as well. :) But I don't think you would disable it, so yeah.  :pinch:  Although, I do think that on modern hardware that there's no real point on disabling it as it runs fast enough anyway. 

 

I take it you work with older machines that don't run well with these effects enabled?

[sinetheo]

They talked about hardware acceleration for a bit as well. :) But I don't think you would disable it, so yeah.  :pinch:  Although, I do think that on modern hardware that there's no real point on disabling it as it runs fast enough anyway. 

 

I take it you work with older machines that don't run well with these effects enabled?

 

I have an old AMD turion laptop from 2007. It has a cr*ppy x1400 ati chipset that is almost 10 years old on it. Windows 7 aero runs fine with it. True IE 9 gets a little choppy if I hit the up and down arrows compared to my more modern desktop with an ATI 7850. But it can do video and flip aero flawlessly.

 

Unfortunately ATI is cutting off support for older graphics for Windows 8 so while both systems can boot it I had trouble getting above 1024 x 768 on both systems (the desktop at the time had an ati 5750 from 2010). 

 

So Windows 7 is the last of the road for a core2duo. Aero works fine for intel gma 945 and up. Windows 8 ... not so much as video cards sold as late as 2011 are not supported which ticked me off. We will see if ATi play the same game with directX12 and Windows 9 in the coming weeks when MS gives us the beta?

 

My guess is it too will have issues like that youtube video before release as drivers are still a work in process.

[LimeMaster]

I have an old AMD turion laptop from 2007. It has a cr*ppy x1400 ati chipset that is almost 10 years old on it. Windows 7 aero runs fine with it. True IE 9 gets a little choppy if I hit the up and down arrows compared to my more modern desktop with an ATI 7850. But it can do video and flip aero flawlessly.

 

Unfortunately ATI is cutting off support for older graphics for Windows 8 so while both systems can boot it I had trouble getting above 1024 x 768 on both systems (the desktop at the time had an ati 5750 from 2010). 

 

So Windows 7 is the last of the road for a core2duo. Aero works fine for intel gma 945 and up. Windows 8 ... not so much as video cards sold as late as 2011 are not supported which ticked me off. We will see if ATi play the same game with directX12 and Windows 9 in the coming weeks when MS gives us the beta?

 

My guess is it too will have issues like that youtube video before release as drivers are still a work in process.

I didn't think visual effects and Aero were intense, but thanks for confirming it. :) I'm surprised that you haven't disabled IE9's GPU rendering if it's laggy for you on your older laptop.

 

AMD always seem to move quickly with their hardware, so you are probably spot on about what will happen. This is bad news for me as my graphic card has never been state of the art and that means that they'll no doubt discontinue support for my graphics card when that time comes.