The return of the Start menu in future Windows 8.1 update: Thoughts?

[Dashel]

It is strange... I'm trying Windows 8 out again and I'm still not sure how the Start Screen is better for a person who "searches" for their applications. It literally only allocates as much width as you had on the Start Menu to the searches while dedicating 90% of your screen to something you aren't interested in seeing (tiles or all apps list).

 

I still use Win+R for most of my programs, but it was annoying to see when I tried to understand the "just use search" mindset. If I had to rely on search to launch apps I would use Win+S. At least it keeps you out of the Start Screen...

Quite right, its not. At best its the same, but with the unenviable choice of either a more awkward button press (Win+S) or the visual lurch of the StartScreen.  I seriously can't believe they didn't put a 'spotlight' search icon on the taskbar or something.  Or just make it Win again since I doubt most users invoke SS that way anyways.

 

Touch enables better input - Instead of a 1x1px x/y plot point, I have 10 fingers which can be utilized for input

Oh, how this made me laugh.  Not to mention - doesn't the Surface only support 5 touch points?  Lets see that wpm or some headshots.

 

There is only one trend that seems to have held true since preview, the main perpetrators of rambling or irrational apologetic nonsense are self admittedly bad mousers and window/folder managers.  Windows should be enjoyed by many different kinds of users, not just the ones living an alternative lifestyle.

[DConnell Member]

It is strange... I'm trying Windows 8 out again and I'm still not sure how the Start Screen is better for a person who "searches" for their applications. It literally only allocates as much width as you had on the Start Menu to the searches while dedicating 90% of your screen to something you aren't interested in seeing (tiles or all apps list).

 

I still use Win+R for most of my programs, but it was annoying to see when I tried to understand the "just use search" mindset. If I had to rely on search to launch apps I would use Win+S. At least it keeps you out of the Start Screen...

 

I don't use search anywhere near as much in 8 as I did in 7. In 7, search was essential for avoiding the menu maze. In 8 it's just a convenient backup method for starting programs.

 

For me "Just use search" only applies to Windows 7, since 8 gave us a program launcher I actually like and use.

[zenica02271977]

My assumption is that old/new Start Menu will bring some touch elements to it but most importantly is when user click on All Apps it will open Start Screen we have today. That might not make some people happy...

[Dot Matrix]

My assumption is that old/new Start Menu will bring some touch elements to it but most importantly is when user click on All Apps it will open Start Screen we have today. That might not make some people happy...

It's already not making people happy with the Live Tiles on it. What else would be new? This is why we don't have nice things.

[zenica02271977]

It's already not making people happy with the Live Tiles on it. What else would be new? This is why we don't have nice things.

The thing is that if you don't like Metro apps you can uninstall them, computer will work just fine. I am not sure how Microsoft will fill Start Menu in case you don't have any Metro App installed. Leaving it blank would be a waste of space. From design point of view it will take a bit of time to figure out how to put start menu back and blend it with Metro.

[Dot Matrix]

The thing is that if you don't like Metro apps you can uninstall them, computer will work just fine. I am not sure how Microsoft will fill Start Menu in case you don't have any Metro App installed. Leaving it blank would be a waste of space. From design point of view it will take a bit of time to figure out how to put start menu back and blend it with Metro.

Well, you can uninstall them... For now, anyways. With universal apps coming, it might get harder and harder to ignore them. Microsoft is going to be pushing them as the future of Windows applications before long.

[Obry]

Well I hate the start screen on my desktop and laptop but I do enjoy it on a tablet so this is a welcome move for me. I usually never buy apps like Start8 but I did after using PC's for over 20 years. Yes operating systems have changed and this has changed and that has changed but (most) people still have two legs, two arms, two eyes, etc and that's never going to change as long as the human race still exists so certain things that have proven themselves over and over simply work and that's that. Microsoft made a mistake by removing it, they obviously have gotten an overwhelming amount of feedback to backtrack on their decision so people can whine all they want but obviously there are millions of people who want to use the start menu. Choice is not a bad thing particularly in this instance. If you don't want to use the start menu then don't. And if you don't want to use the start screen then don't. Very simple and no need to go any more philosophical about it.

[DConnell Member]

Choice is not a bad thing particularly in this instance. If you don't want to use the start menu then don't. And if you don't want to use the start screen then don't. Very simple and no need to go any more philosophical about it.

 

Works for me!

[Michael Lonewolf]

Easy way to get back the old style Windows screen, and it stay there permanently (Exit Metro, re-enter Desktop mode) Go into control panels,. click on taskbar & navigation, then click on the tab named  Navigation, and uncheck the 2 boxes (1) When I point to the upper right corner, Show the charms, and uncheck When I click the upper left corner, switch between my recent apps. Now click Apply, then OK reboot your PC and the Charms menu will never bother you again. (note: by doing this I have found our you can turn it back on when you want to, but it won't stay on permanently, meaning the Charms menu is fubar, and a hassle to bring back to life. 

[Dashel]

I am getting excited that Cortana will be our Spotlight eventually and even an option to replace Start itself.  I would be perfectly happy with that change.

 

Funny story, remember when we were told the future of search was three different hot-keys? :D

[Rickkins]

Well, you can uninstall them... For now, anyways. With universal apps coming, it might get harder and harder to ignore them. Microsoft is going to be pushing them as the future of Windows applications before long.

If microsoft has any hope left of staying relevant, they had best make sure to placate the billion or so desktop pc users who by and large have rejected their metro vision of the future.

[Dot Matrix]

If microsoft has any hope left of staying relevant, they had best make sure to placate the billion or so desktop pc users who by and large have rejected their metro vision of the future.

By doing what, exactly? Allowing developers to tarnish the Windows desktop again by creating crappy applications using old and archaic APIs?

[Rickkins]

By doing what, exactly? Allowing developers to tarnish the Windows desktop again by creating crappy applications using old and archaic APIs?

By giving a clear choice. A fully functional desktop environment completely separate and independent of any metro stuff, for those who so choose. A metro environment for those who want that. 

 

What you continually critically refer to as tarnished and old and archaic, with seeming impunity I may add, is in fact the way most desktop users want it... and without the constant denigration from you.

[HawkMan]

He is right though.  I run into people every day that say they either hate Windows 8 or heard it is very very very horrible.  They are shocked when I say I prefer it over 7.

 

 

 

Funny thing, all these people who hate Windows 8 because some techie friend told them to who come back to the store(because the store failed to start with and didn't spend 30 seconds telling him this to start with) They're all happy Windows 8 users and love it more than 7 after I spend those 30 seconds, explaining how it's the same as windows 7 but with a new bigger start menu/screen that they can fully customize easily. 

 

After I just show them the start screen on a demo computer and just tell them it's just another start menu launcher, they're happy, and wondering what kind of crack their so called techie friends are smoking. of course those techie friends are clueless idiots who could barely run  windows install, but... that's what techie friends usually are. theyr'e the guy who can copy and paste in word...

[Dot Matrix]

By giving a clear choice. A fully functional desktop environment completely separate and independent of any metro stuff, for those who so choose. A metro environment for those who want that. 

 

What you continually critically refer to as tarnished and old and archaic, with seeming impunity I may add, is in fact the way most desktop users want it... and without the constant denigration from you.

You have to let go of the old, sooner or later. Universal apps are a clear way forward, and it isn't just Microsoft working on taking computing this route. Personally, I very much look forward to dynamic, and responsive computing. It represents a better and complete ecosystem in today's market.

[Rickkins]

You have to let go of the old, sooner or later.

I don't wanna. You can't make me. :laugh:

[DConnell Member]

By giving a clear choice. A fully functional desktop environment completely separate and independent of any metro stuff, for those who so choose. A metro environment for those who want that. 

 

What you continually critically refer to as tarnished and old and archaic, with seeming impunity I may add, is in fact the way most desktop users want it... and without the constant denigration from you.

 

As long as the Metro environment continues to include the desktop, and is available on traditional computers rather than just tablets, I'd be fine with that.

[George P Global Moderator]

There are two parts to "metro" and people need to understand this first before they keep going on about wanting a "metro-less" version of Windows.  The start screen is just a new part of the shell UI, live tiles and charms are new UIs as well, but that's not all "metro" is.  You can change the start screen and have a new start menu, you could move the charms into the new menu and not a hot corner, you can integrate the live tiles into the taskbar and new start menu as well and go back to a more "traditional" desktop setup.   The UI changes don't however remove "metro", the APIs and the frameworks are there, and will be the focus going forward.  WinRT is the new thing that will take over from Win32, from the talk at build they're going to extend it to support WPF as well, though I really think GDI/GDI+ Win32 apps are done, while WinRT and WPF will move ahead anything else is pretty much done for.

 

So really, UI changes aside, "metro" is going to be in Windows from now on and isn't going anywhere, in the future even if you don't use store/WinRT apps, there's a good chance some new/updated desktop/WPF app will be using parts of it anyways.

 

There's also the fact that the future UI changes on the desktop side will continue to change to support WINRT apps as well.  The new start menu will show that, and I expect a updated taskbar to support live tiles is on the list of things they're looking at.    If/when they bring the action center from WP8.1 over to Windows then the systray's days are numbered as well.  PC settings will replace control panel at some point to, once they've added all the controls into it and once it's able to run Windowed on the desktop, there's also other things to that can and probably will change.

[Dot Matrix]

There are two parts to "metro" and people need to understand this first before they keep going on about wanting a "metro-less" version of Windows.  The start screen is just a new part of the shell UI, live tiles and charms are new UIs as well, but that's not all "metro" is.  You can change the start screen and have a new start menu, you could move the charms into the new menu and not a hot corner, you can integrate the live tiles into the taskbar and new start menu as well and go back to a more "traditional" desktop setup.   The UI changes don't however remove "metro", the APIs and the frameworks are there, and will be the focus going forward.  WinRT is the new thing that will take over from Win32, from the talk at build they're going to extend it to support WPF as well, though I really think GDI/GDI+ Win32 apps are done, while WinRT and WPF will move ahead anything else is pretty much done for.

 

So really, UI changes aside, "metro" is going to be in Windows from now on and isn't going anywhere, in the future even if you don't use store/WinRT apps, there's a good chance some new/updated desktop/WPF app will be using parts of it anyways.

 

There's also the fact that the future UI changes on the desktop side will continue to change to support WINRT apps as well.  The new start menu will show that, and I expect a updated taskbar to support live tiles is on the list of things they're looking at.    If/when they bring the action center from WP8.1 over to Windows then the systray's days are numbered as well.  PC settings will replace control panel at some point to, once they've added all the controls into it and once it's able to run Windowed on the desktop, there's also other things to that can and probably will change.

^ This.

[MorganX]

There are two parts to "metro" and people need to understand this first before they keep going on about wanting a "metro-less" version of Windows.  The start screen is just a new part of the shell UI, live tiles and charms are new UIs as well, but that's not all "metro" is.  You can change the start screen and have a new start menu, you could move the charms into the new menu and not a hot corner, you can integrate the live tiles into the taskbar and new start menu as well and go back to a more "traditional" desktop setup.   The UI changes don't however remove "metro", the APIs and the frameworks are there, and will be the focus going forward.  WinRT is the new thing that will take over from Win32, from the talk at build they're going to extend it to support WPF as well, though I really think GDI/GDI+ Win32 apps are done, while WinRT and WPF will move ahead anything else is pretty much done for.

 

So really, UI changes aside, "metro" is going to be in Windows from now on and isn't going anywhere, in the future even if you don't use store/WinRT apps, there's a good chance some new/updated desktop/WPF app will be using parts of it anyways.

 

There's also the fact that the future UI changes on the desktop side will continue to change to support WINRT apps as well.  The new start menu will show that, and I expect a updated taskbar to support live tiles is on the list of things they're looking at.    If/when they bring the action center from WP8.1 over to Windows then the systray's days are numbered as well.  PC settings will replace control panel at some point to, once they've added all the controls into it and once it's able to run Windowed on the desktop, there's also other things to that can and probably will change.

Exemplary post.

[PGHammer]

If microsoft has any hope left of staying relevant, they had best make sure to placate the billion or so desktop pc users who by and large have rejected their metro vision of the future.

Rickkins - they rejected it because they refused to move because they felt no NEED to move - their applicaitons stayed the same, what they did with their PC stayed the same, so they stayed put.

 

There are some that DID move - despite no changes in applications, hardware, etc - just as there are those that upgraded from Vista to 7 (or even went from XP to 7) despite their applications staying where they are.

 

There were more that didn't move because they had a greater incentive to not move - moving has a cost/price;  staying put largely didn't.

 

Staying put is the equivalent of "no change".  It's a choice - however, how RIGHT that choice is typically happens later.  (It's like rejecting a ballot referendum.)

 

You sound like the IT equivalent of a NIMBY; the real question is how safe is NIMBYism in an IT sense?

[Salgoth]

Rickkins - they rejected it because they refused to move because they felt no NEED to move - their applicaitons stayed the same, what they did with their PC stayed the same, so they stayed put.

 

 Have to disagree with this part of your statement.  I just got a Surface 2 Pro and the reason I've waited this long was that I truly didn't WANT to learn an entirely new way of doing things.  After 2 days having to actually WORK to do the same things which are effortless in Windows 7 I actually find that I UNDERESTIMATED how radical the UI changes MS adopted would affect the everyday tasks I do. 

 

I've had the misfortune of experiencing many of the things I've read about right here on Neowin:  How do you CLOSE an app? Check.  How do I access Wifi settings for out of range networks?  Yep, at the command line.  How do I set the workgroup name so I can join the network my older computers are on?  Yep, that too.  How do I know if what I'm using is an App or a Windows program?  My wife had this. 

 

Based on my own experiences if I was a large corporation or government agency I wouldn't touch 8 even if it was free and I'd wait for 9 in hopes that they listen to their user base and soften the learning curve to make adoption easier.  In my experience with 8 thus far I can say they did a horrible job and created possibly the first Dissociative Identity Disorder computer operating system.

[Andre S. Veteran]

 I don't like pinning because it takes either holding the shift button or right clicking to run multiple instances.

Middle-click works.

[MorganX]

If microsoft has any hope left of staying relevant, they had best make sure to placate the billion or so desktop pc users who by and large have rejected their metro vision of the future.

I don't think MS had a vision of Metro on the desktop. They follishly were convinced by Tim Cook of Apple that we were in a post PC era and they bought into the notion that the desktop was dead, and making it a mess would be a non issue. They have rethought that, and are now making Metro integrate better with the desktop. I think they're doing good. Metro is good where it's good until it's good enough to replace the Desktop. With the changes being made, I can see that happening sooner than I would have previously thought.

[Dot Matrix]

Universal applications will be the norm before long, and to have those, you'll need the Metro additions Windows 8 has brought. Live Tiles, Charms, and window snapping will all live on. I still think were seeing the decline of Win32 as a whole at this point. It's just not scalable enough nor desirable enough in this new age of computing.