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Build 2014 Xbox One Discussion

build developer conference xbox one microsoft apps cloud

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#61 OP trooper11

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 02:51

You wouldn't be able to do that though, because things change in real-time, if someone does something else like another explosion, it'd interact with all the other objects and the data received on them would be useless

 

Doing calculations on 23,000 individual objects, you've got to send that data over and it's going to be a path or whatnot and so the amount of data builds up very fast.

 

Maybe you can pre-calculate the data based on what is possible in the scene and then that data is taken by the game engine for use based on how the user interacts with it?

 

I mean is the only possibility here that it is bs? 




#62 Crimson Rain

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 21:35

All they've done is shown one thing slowed down and one thing running at normal speed.

 

There was nothing in that demo that couldn't run even on a last gen 360?  Graphics were awful and physics average.

 

They just slapped a low number on the slowmo one and all of a sudden people are lapping it up

Sure. You need crysis level graphics or a high end computer will never slow down. /s

Shows the level of your understanding about computers, graphics/physics/ai processing. Please, educate yourself first and then talk.

 

 

He said High End Machine? What does he mean by that then? What specs he talking. I am really surprised that the high end machine FPS dropped that low when you look at anything like 3D Mark or whatever. 

See above.

 

 

As good as the demo looks, I refuse to believe it would be possible on any ordinary internet connection. It says it's tracking over 23,000 individual objects, which will all have their own equations applied and whatnot.

Let's just imagine for a moment trying to send down the gravity equations and other stuff for 10,000 objects... Yeah, looks almost impossible. Now double that and they're saying it's completely achieveable. ########. With a 10Gbps LAN it might well be.

Another "this is not possible because I said so" post. Do you have ANY idea how much information you can put in an 1MB package?



#63 McKay

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 21:46

Pretty sure if it was a demo of the next Killzone game the 2nd or 3rd post would be asking if it's CG :p Still it doesn't really matter what other companies do, you build your own fanbase trust through what you do. And anyway, demos of things such as this are always looked at sceptically, especially when it's controlled. We live in an industry where what we often get shown early on is a "target render". See Watch Dogs recently...

 

If it was a Killzone demo or screens I'd be dubious of it too, after they were caught photoshopping in-game screenshots to make them look better, adding lighting effects and changing the colouration. 



#64 elenarie

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 22:05

Collision detection is usually done server side today. they even store snapshot and full history of where you travel for a period of time. So that when you fire a gun at someone, the server actually turns back time to properly calculate hit or miss. I'm doing a terrible job at explaining it though.  But it's all to prevent people abusing lag to dodge shots or hid behind buildings. 

 

Best example of this might be Diablo 3, were there was a lot of rubber-banding at the beginning when the servers weren't much optimised.

 

EDIT: That is, if I understood what you wrote.



#65 rfirth

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 22:29

As good as the demo looks, I refuse to believe it would be possible on any ordinary internet connection. It says it's tracking over 23,000 individual objects, which will all have their own equations applied and whatnot.

Let's just imagine for a moment trying to send down the gravity equations and other stuff for 10,000 objects... Yeah, looks almost impossible. Now double that and they're saying it's completely achieveable. ########. With a 10Gbps LAN it might well be.

 

All have their own equations applied? No... it's the same physics, the same equations, applied to every object...

 

Sending down gravity equations? The equations don't take up any space at all. It's the time to apply those calculations 20,000 times.

 

Math for 10,000 objects, assuming no compression:

Transmitting the positions of all the objects to the server? 117 kb of information (10000 * 3 floats * 4 bytes/float).

Transmitting the orientations of all the objects? 156 kb of information (quaternion... 10000 * 4 floats * 4 bytes/float).
Transmitting the velocity of all the objects? 117 kb of information.

... several more fields ...

Your estimated bandwidth? 10 Gbps? 1.25 GB/s? It would take 1/3 of a millisecond to transmit the data (excluding latency) at that speed.
 

At 60 fps, that's 16.6 ms per frame. You could transmit the data back and forth 50 times each frame (ignoring latency). At the 30 fps demoed, you could transmit the data back and forth 100 times in the time between frames.
 

You don't actually have to pre-calculate everything for the path. All you have to do is offload crude bounding box calculations... determine which objects will be colliding in the cloud. That leaves your gaming console to calculate the actual collisions, without having to go through the huge problem of computing which of 30,000 objects are interacting. Most of them aren't.



#66 JonnyLH

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:25

All have their own equations applied? No... it's the same physics, the same equations, applied to every object...

 

Sending down gravity equations? The equations don't take up any space at all. It's the time to apply those calculations 20,000 times.

 

Math for 10,000 objects, assuming no compression:

Transmitting the positions of all the objects to the server? 117 kb of information (10000 * 3 floats * 4 bytes/float).

Transmitting the orientations of all the objects? 156 kb of information (quaternion... 10000 * 4 floats * 4 bytes/float).
Transmitting the velocity of all the objects? 117 kb of information.

... several more fields ...

Your estimated bandwidth? 10 Gbps? 1.25 GB/s? It would take 1/3 of a millisecond to transmit the data (excluding latency) at that speed.
 

At 60 fps, that's 16.6 ms per frame. You could transmit the data back and forth 50 times each frame (ignoring latency). At the 30 fps demoed, you could transmit the data back and forth 100 times in the time between frames.
 

You don't actually have to pre-calculate everything for the path. All you have to do is offload crude bounding box calculations... determine which objects will be colliding in the cloud. That leaves your gaming console to calculate the actual collisions, without having to go through the huge problem of computing which of 30,000 objects are interacting. Most of them aren't.

Seeing some replies, was going to do the math myself and saw this. Couldn't of done it better myself.

 

People really don't understand that raw object data in-games take fraction of the bandwidth compared to say, video and music. It's definitely feasible through normal connections.



#67 Crimson Rain

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 23:36

All have their own equations applied? No... it's the same physics, the same equations, applied to every object...

 

Sending down gravity equations? The equations don't take up any space at all. It's the time to apply those calculations 20,000 times.

 

Math for 10,000 objects, assuming no compression:

Transmitting the positions of all the objects to the server? 117 kb of information (10000 * 3 floats * 4 bytes/float).

Transmitting the orientations of all the objects? 156 kb of information (quaternion... 10000 * 4 floats * 4 bytes/float).
Transmitting the velocity of all the objects? 117 kb of information.

... several more fields ...

Your estimated bandwidth? 10 Gbps? 1.25 GB/s? It would take 1/3 of a millisecond to transmit the data (excluding latency) at that speed.
 

At 60 fps, that's 16.6 ms per frame. You could transmit the data back and forth 50 times each frame (ignoring latency). At the 30 fps demoed, you could transmit the data back and forth 100 times in the time between frames.
 

You don't actually have to pre-calculate everything for the path. All you have to do is offload crude bounding box calculations... determine which objects will be colliding in the cloud. That leaves your gaming console to calculate the actual collisions, without having to go through the huge problem of computing which of 30,000 objects are interacting. Most of them aren't.

Thank you for post this. I wanted to do this myself but the amount of idiotic posts in thread made me feel it'd be a waste of time from my part. They'd probably still keep singing their same old tune.



#68 vcfan

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 03:15

Check out a high resolution side-by-side of the Cloud Assist demo we showed off at Build 2014 during Steve Guggenheimer's keynote. One side is a single computer doing all of the physics calculations real time by itself, the other is a computer taking advantage of remote destruction servers doing those calculations.

This is real time physics and lighting calculations and not scripted, and ends up being tens of thousands of individual chunks being thrown through the air and interacting with each other.


http://channel9.msdn...from-Build-2014