Too Many Degrees Are a Waste of Money

[blerk]

What really grates on me is how so many companies expect fresh-faced graduates to be perfect employees, despite many (most?) of them never having had a full-time job. Students, and young people on the whole, are not ready for the workfoce, but in my opinion that's what entry level positions are for. Entry level positions are supposed to be for people new into the working public to wet their beaks and get experience on the "real world", where they can adapt to being an employee, gain working knowledge, and progress to higher things. Similarly, graduate programmes should serve the same purpose. Hell, I took a job as a "graduate software developer" with my current employer for specifically that reason. They don't make enormous assumptions about your knowledge, they give you easier jobs while accustoming you to working life, and over time assimilate you as a full-fledged developer.

 

This is one of those fields where all things hospital and medicine have actually got right in the training of recent graduates. House Surgeons/Residents for all intents and purposes are students, it's just that the hospital now employs you instead of you paying them. They know and expect that a newly trained graduate with the newly-minted title of "Doctor" still knows very little, and so they have an massive system designed to gradually train graduates into competent, functional members of the workforce. 

 

Thus, by the time you pass your college/board exams to be a specialist, you have already gained the required "5 10 years experience" and you can take up life as a specialist/consultant, having been completely and seamlessly integrated into the workforce , whilst not being a burden to the hospitals. 

 

...well that's the theory :P

[+LogicalApex MVC]

I am usually a big fan of The Economist, but they failed hard here. They are talking about degrees, and more realistically majors, but they post a return chart focused on schools. They really needed to be focusing on the return generated by various majors so this could better align with the article and be useful to students.

 

This gives the false impression that studying Spanish at Harvard is guaranteed to net you a solid net positive return compared to another school. I'm sure this is far from the case...

 

But, without question students need to make better decisions as to where they should focus. They shouldn't be majoring in anything solely because "they love it". College is a massive investment... Like any investment you need to approach it with an ROI mindset before you dive into it.

[Praetor]

The problem here isn't universities specifically (although the outrageous fees that you folks in the USA have to pay doesn't help), the problem is that employers are now looking for "graduates" with "5 years experience in <insert advanced subject here>" that they obviously don't have. If employers can't fill 4 million positions in an economy like this, perhaps standards need to be a little lower.

 

i've been seeing lots of job requests in the last years that are really crazy: requesting a senior consultant (5 years +), with lots of certifications, experience in lots of applications and systems, for a cheap price (and some of the jobs requests don't even pay for formation they demand as obligatory or extra hours, slave labour FTW). I usually don't even respond to those job applications: if the company doesn't value a highly trained, formed and experienced professional, then its a doomed company with poor vision from the management; it's downhill from there and they wont ever learn.

 

This is bad because companies aren't getting the right employees, those employees aren't paid the just salary (motivation goes down) and people aren't getting the right jobs. :/

[Bi4me]

as someone with an engineering degree, i can tell you that it was neither a waste of time nor a waste of money.

I was talking about multiple degrees.

[technord]

I can only speak from personal experience, but in the IT sector I have found that it's those employees without a degree that do better.

 

They may not have been to university, but they have passion, motivation and IT qualifications which to me is more important

[sc302 Veteran]

as someone with an engineering degree, i can tell you that it was neither a waste of time nor a waste of money.

As someone who is an engineer without a degree making just shy of 6 figures and in my 30's, what exactly does that piece of paper do?

[dipsylalapo Supervisor]

As someone who is an engineer without a degree making just shy of 6 figures and in my 30's, what exactly does that piece of paper do?

 

How did you get to the level/job you're at now? Did you start from a certain level and work your way up?

 

Again, looking at most entry level jobs in most fields (engineering included) you need a degree. It may not be the case in all jobs, but I would say a high level. 

 

This is what a degree has become (in some fields), it's just another hoop that you need to jump through. 

[sc302 Veteran]

In the 90's I went to tech school, in the 90s they were offering job placement after graduation (this is not college graduation, just course graduation).  Landed my job as a entry level tech, it was bit of a lucky break.  I learn by doing, trial and error, etc.  Have been increasing my skills on a daily basis since I got out.  My brother graduated with his Masters about 4 years ago and is working for Google and makes about the same as I do with much less work experience, I don't think that I would get such a good company to work for but I can't say I am doing poorly working for medium enterprises.  I have been in the field longer than him so I have been able to make more money vs spending more in schooling.  I have worked for 6 companies that have given me employment, 3 of which were contractors where I was highly desired out of all of the other techs or engineers.

 

So in essence I did start at the bottom and work my way up, but I have a very good understanding of what everyone is going through at different stages as I have been there.  I am also a manager level so that also demands more of a salary.  Could I be making more if I had the education, possibly, but I wouldn't have the practical know how of how things work.  Theory is great, and lab environments are great too, the world doesn't work like the lab does..it isn't as controlled.

[dipsylalapo Supervisor]

In the 90's I went to tech school, in the 90s they were offering job placement after graduation (this is not college graduation, just course graduation).  Landed my job as a entry level tech, it was bit of a lucky break.  I learn by doing, trial and error, etc.  Have been increasing my skills on a daily basis since I got out.  My brother graduated with his Masters about 4 years ago and is working for Google, I don't think that I would get such a good company to work for but I can't say I am doing poorly working for medium enterprises.  I have worked for 6 companies that have given me employment, 3 of which were contractors where I was highly desired out of all of the other techs or engineers.

 

I think times have changed since then, you have probably thousands of people applying for a few roles, and easy way to thin those numbers down is to set a benchmark of having a degree.

[Praetor]

In the 90's I went to tech school, in the 90s they were offering job placement after graduation (this is not college graduation, just course graduation).  Landed my job as a entry level tech, it was bit of a lucky break.  I learn by doing, trial and error, etc.  Have been increasing my skills on a daily basis since I got out.  My brother graduated with his Masters about 4 years ago and is working for Google and makes about the same as I do with much less work experience, I don't think that I would get such a good company to work for but I can't say I am doing poorly working for medium enterprises.  I have been in the field longer than him so I have been able to make more money vs spending more in schooling.  I have worked for 6 companies that have given me employment, 3 of which were contractors where I was highly desired out of all of the other techs or engineers.

 

well, without saying you have no merit but the 90's were great for IT entry levels; i had a few friends that were getting 5000 euros per month for coding VB stuff and another one that was the IT manager of a company (he was 19, like me, and he was in the same university as i was, only he didn't show up whatsoever to any classes because of his job lol). None of them had a degree.

 

Now it's all about metrics and a degree gives to a recruiter a metric, a comparison tool, not to mention more knowledge to the student.

[sc302 Veteran]

90's were great for IT entry level, and I can still get people hired as entry level without creds.  Many small employers do not look for paper creds, but they do require a bit of a knowledge dump during the interview process.  When I interview I check for knowledge, many college grads will not pass my knowledge tests (I have interviewed quite a few in my time).

 

Here is a few simple questions that I ask

 

What is TCP/IP...usually gets a blank stare or some bs about ping

Describe route tables (if it is an engineer)

Describe how dhcp works....(something most techs should know)

How do you add a printer (something a entry level should know)

What does a print share do for you. (something a admin should know)

 

I usually get the people without the degree to answer the questions correctly.

 

If your resume doesn't look like what I am after, it will get pitched, college or not.

[+Majesticmerc MVC]

Surely before university is way too early to teach these sort of skills? I go back to my point of learning these skills whilst you're actually doing a degree through a placement, but that's just my opinion. My university and placement year helped me to become the person I am today (yes it sounds cheesy but it's true). I think people change a lot during those years and it should be at that time these kind of skills are best learnt (IMO). Who should be responsible for that, I don't know.

 

Look at in on the flip side, there are many graduates coming out of university that think they can walk into these jobs because they have a degree in XYZ and that's just as bad, being overconfident. I've talked to graduates who have started at started recently at the company that I work and they talk about having been project managers. I ask them about what sort of budget they were working to, what tools did you use to track their project and they don't have a clue. 

 

I completely agree with your last point, it's just ridiculous.

 

Your point about placements is very valid. In fact I also did a placement for my degree, but I would submit that these are skills that everyone requires, not just graduates. So if the kids that don't go to college are getting these skills, why aren't those that do go to university?

 

I agree that over-confidence in graduates is a problem, and one that I suffered from. I think it's fairly understandable, I mean, after you've submitted your dissertation, you've passed all your exams, and you've got your piece of paper (with all the associated pomp and ceremony), you feel pretty godly, especially after how much work you had to undertake to get there. The question is how to drill that attitude out of them in the gap between getting your degree and getting your first job. I came down to earth pretty hard when I realised how bad of a programmer I actually was when compared to those with years of experience. My overconfidence caused much frustration, but I got over it.

[sc302 Veteran]

I think what needs to happen is the world's needs a reality check and understand the difference between a trade skill and something that really requires an advanced schooling. Making drugs, you probably should have some serious schooling behind this, rocket science probably doesn't. Brain surgery probably does, programming can be self taught. If you are touching a life directly you should have schooling, everything else can be learned through trial and error with little to no effect to someone's life. If experience is what is needed to get a job why not gain the experience before getting the job? If you have the drive you can learn computers, cars, architectural design, how things work, and to put things together without the need of school to do it. You need your basics, reading, writing, arithmetic, and a thirst to learn something worth while.

I am not saying no to education, what I am saying no to is the need for college degrees..what is taught in 4+ years can be taught in two or if you have the drive 1 with practical application to gain the experience needed.

[Bryan R.]

I don't have the time to properly respond, but sc302 is spot on in my opinion. I'm 26 and haven't gone to college. I've had my systems engineer job for 7 years and have the experience to take on a sysadmin role anywhere. However, I've chosen to go my own way and be self-employed.

 

There needs to be a serious reality check on the valuation of college degrees both at the employer's end and the schools.

[sbauer]

I hire developers with or without a degree. Doesn't matter to me. I have a degree, and while I appreciate the effort that it takes to get it, it also takes effort to build up knowledge on your own with just experience, self teaching and interest. 

 

Degree or not, I love seeing developers that take initiative. They learn new languages, methodologies and systems. They don't always have to wait for someone to pay for an official developer training class.