Keep AMD phenom II 6-core or i7 upgrade

[sinetheo]

AMD chipsets have virtualization in all the bioses

[Praetor]

Hello,

 

(...)

I have major computer lust and I am eyeing a nice delicious a nice 3.4 or 3.6 ghz i7. My current rig is an AMD phenom II 2.6 ghz black edition (2010 era), It is 6 cores. To speed this up over the years I put Samsung SSD PRO (fastest SSD), ATI 7850, upgraded the RAM to 16 gigs 1600. 

 

My main uses are a few games and VMWare worstation to test domains and learn IT stuff. A CPU with virtualization support is a must for this reason and I like my many cores.

(...)

 

I've highlighted those because i do have a identical situation; those in bold are the stuff i do have/use so it was kind of funny to see someone with a almost identical situation like i have :D

 

So, answering your question: that CPU is good enough for playing games; how about high end games? Well it depends on the screen resolution and the graphics card you use. I do have a similar graphics card but my screen is just 1280x720, so i can play anything on ultra graphics; i do have a AMD Phenom II x6 1090t clocked @ 3.9Ghz and even the highest demanding game i play it doesn't saturate the processor; on the other hand i know that if i do upgrade my monitor and use a higher screen resolution that maybe the graphics card won't be able to sustain the demand; the processor on other hand i doubt it will be saturated.

 

I do also have an i7 (latest Haswell) and a Geforce 740 and trust me, it's the same situation; the processor isn't saturated but this graphics card does all the work (again, it's a laptop @ 1366x768 so again i can play everything at high resolution).

 

So i recommend a good graphics card and PSU because those are on the most important things (and expensive ones) that you can use right now; a new high end graphics card means that the bottleneck (if it does exist) would be on the CPU (because 16GB of RAM @ 1600 is pretty much overkill for any game today); a new PSU means clean, safe current is going to be delivered into your rig, without the chance of damaging those components or risking seeing your PSU explode just like i saw mine a few weeks ago.

Also about those two components: even if you buy a new CPU/mainboard/RAM you can still use those two components, so there is no risk in buying them right now.

 

For virtualization: RAM is the key in there; the more the merrier. Also i chose the Phenom II because it was in a incredible nice price, in several tests it beaten an i7 (like video rendering or other cpu multicore intensive task), the more cores the better... and because real men use real cores :woot:

Having saying that, i use both my machines (tower and laptop) for virtualization (Hyper-V) and i see no difference when using VMs; it does make an difference the HDD used because that's usually the typical bottleneck (i use an SSD + HDD in my tower and a HDD + SSD (cache) in my laptop).

 

Finally: all the i3/i5/i7 support VT-X and other cpu extensions but i saw in some HP desktops that those extensions (VT-X, for example) were disabled in BIOS; furthermore some of those desktops also had Intel AMT disabled in BIOS even that those CPUs supported; that could be very handy for support but alas, HP though otherwise. :angry:

I don't think that quite makes sense.  BIOS is on the motherboard side.  The i3, i5, and i7 have all always supported virtualization since generation 1.  

 

http://ark.intel.com...ationtechnology

 

Hello,

Please read my post; some desktops had BIOS severed so some of the technologies prevalent in those CPUs couldn't be used (VT-x and AMT for example).

[Praetor]

First :

http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i7-4770K-vs-AMD-Phenom-II-X6-1035T

 

Then :

http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i5-4670K-vs-AMD-Phenom-II-X6-1035T

 

And just for fun :

http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i3-4340-vs-AMD-Phenom-II-X6-1035T

 

 

So in two tests they gave 6.9 and in the other test they gave 7.2, for the same AMD CPU :laugh: ? Also i did some tests (with the same CPU) and strangely the score gets lower, so Intel always beats AMD? Like that's not biased at all :laugh: :laugh:  (recomending an i3 instead of a Phenom II?? Really?  :rofl: :woot: ).

 

http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i7-3537U-vs-AMD-Phenom-II-X6-Black-1090T - AMD CPU gets 6,7; Intel beats it.

http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i7-4770K-vs-AMD-Phenom-II-X6-Black-1090T - same AMD CPU now gets 7,6; Intel beats it

 

anyways, this is irrelevant for the discussion; anybody knows that single core is not the objective for AMD and that's one of the reasons why those CPUs perform less, when compared to Intel.

[sinetheo]

My Asus system is underclocking my cpu at 2.6 ghz. It can't be updaed :angry:

 

I noticed lag in same games with lots of players with polygons so my hunch was the cpu was the bottleneck. At 3.9 ghz that would help.

 

I think I am going to keep this for awhile. My fear was if I waited another year when 2400 ram came out my 1600 ram I bought last summer would be obsolete by 2015 and Windows 9 will be out. Windows 7 is starting to show its age just like my Phenom II does. However, they both work fine just like XP did late in the 2000's even if it is not the greatest. Many of these same users in 2014 still are too scared to leave.

 

But back to the point my budget and needs. I think I will just suck it up and just have lag loading things. I/O is fast, but things like OS booting in VMware are cpu bound as well after the I/O is taken care of. My Samsung pro is as fast booting win 7 as my sansdisk which is only 50% as fast. It is cpu now but it works and I guess I felt similar to those idiots who buy a Ford 350 truck who only make $35,000 a year never haul anything. They then wonder why they are broke and can't afford gas.

 

It is a toy vs a real need just like my above example. Thanks everyone.

 

My goal in October 2010 was this would last 5 years with an upgrade 2.5 years into it. 3.5 years into it I upgrades the PSU, ram, added SSDs, and an ATI 7850. So it is time to ride this out until oct 2015. The bad thing is my ram will be obsolete by then. But with 1080p going obsolete I do nto know what will happen by then?

 

1080p is a requirement for even casual gaming unless I want to throw away my ati 7850 into the trash. I think perhaps I will go 4k 2.5 years into my next setup. Will be cheap by then and video cards will have caught up.

[Praetor]

But with 1080p going obsolete I do nto know what will happen by then?

 

lol wut? unless you want to game in 4K (and by that you need buckets of money to build a game rig to provide it), 1080p is very much alive and kicking :)

[riahc3]

Id go with a i7. Better performance all around.

Do make sure, since you are into virtualization, that your motherboard (chipset) AND your processor support virtualization technology.

Also, just RAM, RAM, and more RAM. Running VMs sucks a lot of RAM so...

Besides that, your GPU; Anything you build towards virtualization, will probably run the latest games. You will only need to watch out for your GPU.

[HawkMan]

Id go with a i7. Better performance all around.

Do make sure, since you are into virtualization, that your motherboard (chipset) AND your processor support virtualization technology.

Also, just RAM, RAM, and more RAM. Running VMs sucks a lot of RAM so...

Besides that, your GPU; Anything you build towards virtualization, will probably run the latest games. You will only need to watch out for your GPU.

 

 

Buying an i7 for gaming is like buying a supercar to drive to and from work in a big city with traffic jams every time you drive. 

[riahc3]

Buying an i7 for gaming is like buying a supercar to drive to and from work in a big city with traffic jams every time you drive.

He is not buying a i7 for gaming only :rolleyes:

[HawkMan]

He is not buying a i7 for gaming only :rolleyes:

 

No, but he's not buying it for anything that needs workstation grade performance. all his needs are server more than enough by an i5, now and for many years and it won't even have to sweat. 

 

again the only ones who need an i7 today are workstation grade computers who do some kind of heavy over time computing like rendering, be it 3D or video. where you want the time consuming operation to be finished as fast as possible. And even then, sometimes an AMD with a high corecount will in these programs often give performance, if not equal close enough to intel(since these are heaviluy multithreaded apps) that the price of the i7 won't be worth it.

 

but for his needs, an i5 is best served, spending money on other things like more and faster memory and graphics card. 

[Praetor]

Id go with a i7. Better performance all around.

Do make sure, since you are into virtualization, that your motherboard (chipset) AND your processor support virtualization technology.

Also, just RAM, RAM, and more RAM. Running VMs sucks a lot of RAM so...

Besides that, your GPU; Anything you build towards virtualization, will probably run the latest games. You will only need to watch out for your GPU.

 

lol have you been reading this thread?  :woot: 

 

i3/i5/i7 support virtualization extensions and to upgrade into a i7 that would mean new cpu, new board and new ram; it's expensive for the gains he would get coming from a phenom II (although i don't get how come his board limits the cpu..); i would prefer to upgrade the graphics card and psu; that way he can also use them if he buys a new cpu/mainboard/ram.

[sinetheo]

 My board limits it because it is an Asus essentio that came with a crappy 400 watt supply where Asus made more expensive units that compete with it. My exwife forced me on a $600 budget so I compromised.

 

I did upgrade the POS psu to a 700 watt one so I can use an ATI 7850 and not worry about it blowing when I did my 2.5/3 year upgrade as planned.

 

The only way around the 2.6 ghz underclock is to flash it with another asus board bios where I would lose Ethernet. The system doesn't have wifi. I would need a USB dongle since I have no room with my ATI taking up 2 slots :-(

 

I used one before and do not want 600 ms lag. I work from home and need RDP for remote sessions for these clients so that is a no no.

 

So I am screwed.

 

I think after looking at finances I just can't justify the expense. I was looking at an i7 like a man drools over an ultra expensive truck. If you do nto need it and live in suburbia it is dumb to buy it unless you make decent cash.

 

I7 will come in the future towards 2015. Hopefully I can still use my 1600 ram but I feel it will be obsolete by then.

[Praetor]

 My board limits it because it is an Asus essentio that came with a crappy 400 watt supply where Asus made more expensive units that compete with it. My exwife forced me on a $600 budget so I compromised.

 

I did upgrade the POS psu to a 700 watt one so I can use an ATI 7850 and not worry about it blowing when I did my 2.5/3 year upgrade as planned.

 

The only way around the 2.6 ghz underclock is to flash it with another asus board bios where I would lose Ethernet. The system doesn't have wifi. I would need a USB dongle since I have no room with my ATI taking up 2 slots :-(

 

I used one before and do not want 600 ms lag. I work from home and need RDP for remote sessions for these clients so that is a no no.

 

So I am screwed.

 

I think after looking at finances I just can't justify the expense. I was looking at an i7 like a man drools over an ultra expensive truck. If you do nto need it and live in suburbia it is dumb to buy it unless you make decent cash.

 

I7 will come in the future towards 2015. Hopefully I can still use my 1600 ram but I feel it will be obsolete by then.

 

ouch, sorry to hear that.

 

first and foremost: i7 isn't going to be a huge improvement; a better board yes (i had to buy a new MSI board for my phenom rig because my PSU exploded and toke the Asus mainboard with him and it was cheap, like under 80?; also this board can overclock this CPU better then the Asus i had) but then again, for playing games and running virtual machines your setup is OK; depending on the screen resolution you can play those games you mentioned, but a better graphics card and PSU is going to increase the performance alot, not to mention you can use them in your future setup as well.

 

second: if you work from home then don't cheapen; that's your main tool for incoming so it better be a good one (good psu, good case for optimal airflow, etc.). Having said that you don't need (again) an i7 or other expensive components but be budget wise: good components for the tasks you do is better then over expensive components that won't be useful as much. Think with your wallet and with your brains instead of lusting components that will disappointing you because they won't deliver the expected performance you think they will.

 

Finally: i've build an very decent AMD computer for 600? in 2011, but took me several months of lurking for deals, so i could buy exactly what i wanted for less. It's better to stop a little, think and spend some time lurking for deals then to make some impulse buy.

[sinetheo]

Yeah I will go to medium to high settings. I notice already low FPS in mmo's if I max it even with the newer card. That is why I ask. 

 

The mips rating computed by my mhz from wikipedia show it at around 45,000 mips. A new high end i7 is about 75,000 mips and overclocking gets it 85,000 mips. So it is almost twice as fast. Though I would have to max all my cores out on a theoretical benchmark to obtain this. Mostly running VM's are I/O to load with some cpu mixed in so I would get a gain but NOT TWICE as fast.

 

If this thing could be clocked to 3.9 ghz I would buy a water cooler and do so. That would bring it up to about 60,000 mips which is within striking distance of 3.3 ghz i7 which is what you have.

 

I only get 30,000 iops on my ssd and I wonder too if my board was limiting the speed? But who knows.

 

Thanks it is nice fantasy to think about and if I save for awhile and get that raise at work maybe in 2 years it will be a reality.

[Praetor]

i think your board is bottlenecking your setup; which model and brand is it?

[sinetheo]

It is a CG1330 Asus essentio series. 

 

The SATA speed is only at Sata3 which could have something to do with it. But it is a cheap board so it would not surprise me. Yes DMA is enabled and so is AHCI.

[sinetheo]

Ahh Samsung recognizes it as a SATA 2 connection. Sigh

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

The mips rating computed by my mhz from wikipedia show it at around 45,000 mips. A new high end i7 is about 75,000 mips and overclocking gets it 85,000 mips. So it is almost twice as fast. Though I would have to max all my cores out on a theoretical benchmark to obtain this. Mostly running VM's are I/O to load with some cpu mixed in so I would get a gain but NOT TWICE as fast.

Sure, you could get much better MIPS theoretically but is that what is bottlenecking your system? It's largely academic if used outside or a benchmark.

 

Briefly looking at this older benchmark, I think you CPU is bottlenecking now that I've looked: http://techreport.com/review/23246/inside-the-second-gaming-performance-with-today-cpus/3 (check the arkham one also). Note, they don't necessarily look all that bottlenecky here, but extrapolating to newer games, probably

[ToneKnee]

I would wait until next year, the Phenom II's are excellent CPUs even after 4 years.  Stick with it, save up more money, maybe next year you can go for a 6-core Intel rig.

[Praetor]

well, from what i've read that board is not so good; sure it's OK but for OC? nope.

 

that CPU you have can be pushed into 4Ghz, but you'll need a good board, a good cooling system and a good enough PSU. Does it justifies the cost? well that depends on several factors, like i've been saying in the past posts.

 

Also SATA II? ouch.

Ahh Samsung recognizes it as a SATA 2 connection. Sigh

 

that's explains.

[sinetheo]

Thanks for you insights.

 

At this point a newer board does not make sense since AMD is cancelling its higher end piledriver chips for terrible APU ones. Those are not even as fast as an i5??! So I have a board I will throw out anyway and I loose the license for Office and Windows :-(

 

Doesn't make economic sense unless I planned to upgrade or if AMD had a decent chip anymore. The IPS for the phenomII actually beat their newer offerings if you can believe it?? It pains me to see AMD this way but that is another subject.

 

I will stick with what I have for 1.5 more years as I do not want to blow nearly the same short of $275 and I can just have a new system while I am at it after all costs of replacing the software even if I do a 365 office subscription to replace the card version of office tied to my cpu serial ID.

 

 

well, from what i've read that board is not so good; sure it's OK but for OC? nope.

 

that CPU you have can be pushed into 4Ghz, but you'll need a good board, a good cooling system and a good enough PSU. Does it justifies the cost? well that depends on several factors, like i've been saying in the past posts.

 

Also SATA II? ouch.

 

that's explains.

[ShadowMajestic]

Thanks for you insights.

 

At this point a newer board does not make sense since AMD is cancelling its higher end piledriver chips for terrible APU ones. Those are not even as fast as an i5??! So I have a board I will throw out anyway and I loose the license for Office and Windows :-(

 

Doesn't make economic sense unless I planned to upgrade or if AMD had a decent chip anymore. The IPS for the phenomII actually beat their newer offerings if you can believe it?? It pains me to see AMD this way but that is another subject.

 

I will stick with what I have for 1.5 more years as I do not want to blow nearly the same short of $275 and I can just have a new system while I am at it after all costs of replacing the software even if I do a 365 office subscription to replace the card version of office tied to my cpu serial ID.

AMD isnt canceling their CPU lines, they just have no plans to launch a new line in 2014. The next bulldozer architecture chips (or next generation) are set for release in 2015.

[sinetheo]

Let's hope they are and not giving up.

 

I wonder if it will be AM3+ compatible? It seems a lot of new things are coming in 2015

[Praetor]

yeah i hope that AMD doens't quit the high end CPU lines... competition is good, even that in the last decade there isn't much competition from them :/

[netsysllc]

If you go with Intel you will not want anything less than the i7 since you use virtualization.  The i7 is hyper-threaded and the i5 is not and this will have a negative impact on the cpu resources of your virtual machines.

[HawkMan]

Huh... All the I series are hyper threaded. I know my i5 laptop has the stupid virtual cores. In the end though you get better total performance in most situations without HT.