Xbox One Live Down - What would've happened with previous DRM Restrictions?


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I'm not mad, just pointing out how such things start. I'm sure you have seen it happen before.

Plus, your completely entitled to your opinion based on your experiences, which have been very poor lately.

 

Thanks man, really wasn't bashing MS or anyone, it was a panicky response out of concern. Let's hope we all have better experiences going forward

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I wonder what happened to the 360s, because they have a more restrictive 10 minute check for digital downloads.

 

 

Which is unchanged from the 360 actually, if you lose network access you've got 10 minutes to get it back or it boots you to the dashboard.

Somehow, people never really had an issue with that though.

 

I have always been able to play digital games offline without any digital restriction sending me to the dashboard. As long as I was logged into my profile.

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old system: you move...you won't have internet/tv for a few days so you decide to play some games...oops...no can do since you've got no internet...hope you've got a PS4 or an older system because the XbOne is a brick...

 

(while i do see the advantages of the old system, like not needing to put your discs in after the initial install...there were definitely numerous factors that either sucked out right or that just weren't explained very well)

your right, I mean I move house almost monthly so this would have been a royal PITA! Seriously how often do people move house, and you think having no games would be a big issue at that moment when everything is a mess and your so busy? Out of all my family and friends, not one have moved houses in the entire lifecycle of the 360. Jesus dude get some perspective!

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your right, I mean I move house almost monthly so this would have been a royal PITA! Seriously how often do people move house, and you think having no games would be a big issue at that moment when everything is a mess and your so busy? Out of all my family and friends, not one have moved houses in the entire lifecycle of the 360. Jesus dude get some perspective!

 

Then you and your family are very fortunate, but you should not assume everyone is. I've fallen on hard times when i didn't want to ask my family and friends for money AGAIN, and all i had in the world was an air mattress, a PS2, and a 13" TV while subsisting on Taco Bell, Tombstone Pizza (four for $10 back then), and McD. And I moved three times in the span of six months. because i couldn't afford a place to live and stayed at friends places that were available. Gaming was one of my escapes from that reality. I advise a more compassionate approach, as i don't want to wish this kind of experience on anyone.

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While I'm compassionate about your situation and feel sorry for you, I absolutely don't agree that specific cases of hardship should effect decisions like this.

All kinds of individual cases could be looked at which would pretty much argue about any decision any company could make about its products and how best to make them so they provide the best all round experience to the majority of people.

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True, there is a reasonable limit. An unreasonable request would have been to expect Sony to provide me free PS2 games at the time because i was broke :s

Offering a fully offline mode for a device at this point in time is not unreasonable, that is the only thing i was trying to say. It is not unreasonable, there are many people who move around regularly, from the broke, to military personnel, oil rig workers and astronauts :laugh:

 

Locking out a console or any device because it didn't go online in over 24 hours would have been extremely unreasonable, there are no two ways about it. In 2050 it will be OK (i think) to implement something like that, not now. Companies still need to take into account offline periods as a reality when designing products and services.

 

You should also not feel sorry for a person, but rather sympathize with them :)

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Offering a fully offline mode for a device at this point in time is not unreasonable, that is the only thing i was trying to say.

 

Probably not unreasonable but also not a necessity either. Today's world is almost entirely connected. A couple days without internet won't kill you, and to be perfectly honest anyone wanting to play some games offline can get around with an older system. If you're running into money troubles and can't pay for internet then that is not Microsoft's fault nor should they consider such a situation in their product decisions. Especially since this generation lacks backwards compatibility many people will probably keep their older, offline-enabled consoles.

 

And in reality, internet is not overly expensive anymore. $20-$60/mo isn't going to crush anyone's wallet if they are able to pay for cell phone service/data plans, too. (this is coming from what I know in the US, EU and other international internet prices and service I know nothing of)

 

Again, not an unreasonable request but also not really a necessity. It's not going to make or break the console, imo.

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Probably not unreasonable but also not a necessity either. Today's world is almost entirely connected. A couple days without internet won't kill you, and to be perfectly honest anyone wanting to play some games offline can get around with an older system. If you're running into money troubles and can't pay for internet then that is not Microsoft's fault nor should they consider such a situation in their product decisions. Especially since this generation lacks backwards compatibility many people will probably keep their older, offline-enabled consoles.

 

And in reality, internet is not overly expensive anymore. $20-$60/mo isn't going to crush anyone's wallet if they are able to pay for cell phone service/data plans, too. (this is coming from what I know in the US, EU and other international internet prices and service I know nothing of)

 

Again, not an unreasonable request but also not really a necessity. It's not going to make or break the console, imo.

 

Have to disagree. Regardless of price and scenario, why not offer the consideration? It doesn't change the material design of the product, we were talking software and marketing aspects, and ways to make more money. A business that is not at least somewhat compassionate towards its customers does not deserve to exist. Not attacking you, but your comment regarding "there's a product for people like that"...well, we all know what happened to the exec that uttered it. And rightly so. Wait a minute...say something about a nuclear submarine so we know....FOR YOUR ARE DON! :D

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Have to disagree. Regardless of price and scenario, why not offer the consideration? It doesn't change the material design of the product, we were talking software and marketing aspects, and ways to make more money. A business that is not at least somewhat compassionate towards its customers does not deserve to exist. Not attacking you, but your comment regarding "there's a product for people like that"...well, we all know what happened to the exec that uttered it. And rightly so. Wait a minute...say something about a nuclear submarine so we know....FOR YOUR ARE DON! :D

 

Compassion isn't the same as targeting a part of the market that is incredibly small and based on a niche scenario. A niche within a niche, in reality. I mean... Steam is one of the biggest suppliers of games and in order to use it you have to be online in the first place with your game. So if you happen to buy a game while offline for your PC that requires a Steam verification... you're just as out of luck.

This isn't anything new, and much of the industry has moved on. If you are buying an X1 you more than likely have an internet connection... and are more than likely not going to be without that connection for much longer than a couple days. Everywhere has free internet and wi-fi, there's very little excuse to be offline at this time.

And if you're hurting for money, whether or not you can use your X1 without the internet shouldn't really be your concern, nor Microsofts. This isn't about compassion, it's about what makes sense, imo.

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Compassion isn't the same as targeting a part of the market that is incredibly small and based on a niche scenario. A niche within a niche, in reality. I mean... Steam is one of the biggest suppliers of games and in order to use it you have to be online in the first place with your game. So if you happen to buy a game while offline for your PC that requires a Steam verification... you're just as out of luck.

This isn't anything new, and much of the industry has moved on. If you are buying an X1 you more than likely have an internet connection... and are more than likely not going to be without that connection for much longer than a couple days. Everywhere has free internet and wi-fi, there's very little excuse to be offline at this time.

And if you're hurting for money, whether or not you can use your X1 without the internet shouldn't really be your concern, nor Microsofts. This isn't about compassion, it's about what makes sense, imo.

 

Once again, agree but not with all. Totally correct that it's unreasonable to expect a 100% fully functional entertainment device these days without connectivity. Unreasonable to expect new purchases on Steam to work without a connection...clearly. But it's still reasonable to expect already installed Steam games to continue working in offline mode - at this point in history, they should be able to work offline. What MS originally had in mind was like Steam locking your out of already installed games if you were offline for more than 24 hours, which i'm just saying is not reasonable at this time.

 

If someone falls on hard times it's not reasonable for them to demand free XBL Gold or something, but it is reasonable for them to be able to continue playing games they've already paid for. I think you're taking a slightly cold-hearted approach to this, i wasn't saying MS or Sony or anyone should subsidize hardship gamers, just saying don't take away one of the few things that give people in tough spots enjoyment. I don't think leisure activities are a luxury. When i was living on that air mattress gaming helped me keep going, so i know how important it can be to staying sane.

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I'm not being cold hearted, i'm just stating the facts that I doubt Microsoft should factor in that kind of situation in their product. It's not a target for them.

 

It's not hard for them to allow it but it's also not something that should dictate the decisions. the 24 hour checkup wasn't, imo, a big deal. And we still don't know the specifics or if it would even be globally applied to games. Or if having a disc in the system would be enough to override it. But we won't ever know since it won't come back.

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Once again, agree but not with all. Totally correct that it's unreasonable to expect a 100% fully functional entertainment device these days without connectivity. Unreasonable to expect new purchases on Steam to work without a connection...clearly. But it's still reasonable to expect already installed Steam games to continue working in offline mode - at this point in history, they should be able to work offline. What MS originally had in mind was like Steam locking your out of already installed games if you were offline for more than 24 hours, which i'm just saying is not reasonable at this time.

 

If someone falls on hard times it's not reasonable for them to demand free XBL Gold or something, but it is reasonable for them to be able to continue playing games they've already paid for. I think you're taking a slightly cold-hearted approach to this, i wasn't saying MS or Sony or anyone should subsidize hardship gamers, just saying don't take away one of the few things that give people in tough spots enjoyment. I don't think leisure activities are a luxury. When i was living on that air mattress gaming helped me keep going, so i know how important it can be to staying sane.

We don't disagree much neo but this is like saying Smartphones should be able to work without power because some people might not have it (because they moved or whatever reason).

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We don't disagree much neo but this is like saying Smartphones should be able to work without power because some people might not have it (because they moved or whatever reason).

 

That is probably the most ridiculous thing ive read recently, Electronic devices don't work without electricity, they do work without internet access.

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That is probably the most ridiculous thing ive read recently, Electronic devices don't work without electricity, they do work without internet access.

Buying a smartphone and not having internet access would be a waste of money considering the reliance on that to make much of the features. The same goes for many electronic devices today.

I agree with your premise though, electricity is more vital overall. Internet access is getting more and more important though.

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I'm not being cold hearted, i'm just stating the facts that I doubt Microsoft should factor in that kind of situation in their product. It's not a target for them.

 

It's not hard for them to allow it but it's also not something that should dictate the decisions. the 24 hour checkup wasn't, imo, a big deal. And we still don't know the specifics or if it would even be globally applied to games. Or if having a disc in the system would be enough to override it. But we won't ever know since it won't come back.

 

You said it dude, it's so easy for a manufacturer to NOT include a limitation like this, that including it becomes cold hearted and spiteful by default. I do agree with don't have the specifics, and therefore this is all conjecture. And compassion should always be a factor. Otherwise we are not human. As i said, i don't expect anything for free for anyone, just not heaping needless limitations.

 

 

We don't disagree much neo but this is like saying Smartphones should be able to work without power because some people might not have it (because they moved or whatever reason).

 

Baji i really like you and indeed we always think alike but what the hell were you smoking :rofl:

No, it's like saying your smartphone will stop letting you use apps or stop working period if it can't find Wi-Fi for more than 24 hours, or will refuse to turn on if it can't find any network, cellular or otherwise, for more than 24 hours. Clearly it needs electricity. It's like saying your car won't start if you don't drive it for more than 24 hours, even though there's nothing wrong with the car - tank is full of gas, battery's fine, etc.

 

What the hell Baji hahaha i had to like GotBored's response to you, sorry :D

Buying a smartphone and not having internet access would be a waste of money considering the reliance on that to make much of the features. The same goes for many electronic devices today.

I agree with your premise though, electricity is more vital overall. Internet access is getting more and more important though.

 

We are coming to a time when internet is on par with running water, but not yet. Until then devices need to be designed with offline modes, as pointless as that seems. A Windows PC these days is essentially useless without internet, so how about we lock you out of your photos, documents, and installed games because your ISP is doing construction work exactly when you were planning on doing an entirely offline retro gaming marathon all-nighter?

 

This is not so complicated, i fail to understant why so many of you are supporting design thinking that is simply mean and ignorant of reality as it is.

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That is probably the most ridiculous thing ive read recently, Electronic devices don't work without electricity, they do work without internet access.

 

 

Baji i really like you and indeed we always think alike but what the hell were you smoking :rofl:

No, it's like saying your smartphone will stop letting you use apps or stop working period if it can't find Wi-Fi for more than 24 hours, or will refuse to turn on if it can't find any network, cellular or otherwise, for more than 24 hours. Clearly it needs electricity. It's like saying your car won't start if you don't drive it for more than 24 hours, even though there's nothing wrong with the car - tank is full of gas, battery's fine, etc.

 

What the hell Baji hahaha i had to like GotBored's response to you, sorry :D

 

I know my analogy was a bit extreme and mostly stupid but my point was simple, you can't expect a technology or a gadget to cater to a small minority (in X1's case, people moving to caves for vacation for example* :p) and for extreme scenarios if the benefits^ far outweigh its restrictions.

 

 

 

 

*seriously, if you are going to woods or cabins or islands for a vacation, leave your xbox at home. That's the ####ing point of such vacations.

^just to be clear, Microsoft failed to properly explain/demonstrate the benefits. They ####ed it up, no doubt.

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This is not so complicated, i fail to understant why so many of you are supporting design thinking that is simply mean and ignorant of reality as it is.

When someone chooses to design something that not everyone can use for whatever reason, it is not because they are being mean or ignorant of reality. Usually, its because they want to provide some sort of new service or a premium experience for those that want access.

Steam is not an option for many people around the world, but Valve is not being mean by offering the service. So if MS or any company wanted to offer say a digital download only service, it wouldn't be mean, it just wouldn't be for everyone.

These companies are not coming into this with emotional baggage or bad intent. Their goal is to make money and they make money by offering compelling services and exciting customers.

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When someone chooses to design something that not everyone can use for whatever reason, it is not because they are being mean or ignorant of reality. Usually, its because they want to provide some sort of new service or a premium experience for those that want access.

Steam is not an option for many people around the world, but Valve is not being mean by offering the service. So if MS or any company wanted to offer say a digital download only service, it wouldn't be mean, it just wouldn't be for everyone.

These companies are not coming into this with emotional baggage or bad intent. Their goal is to make money and they make money by offering compelling services and exciting customers.

 

Yep, also remember Microsoft took a lot of flak when they first came up with XBL because they required a broadband connection, which cut a lot of people out if they didn't want to upgrade from dial-up, but it was the right call despite that, and look where we are now.

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I know my analogy was a bit extreme and mostly stupid but my point was simple, you can't expect a technology or a gadget to cater to a small minority (in X1's case, people moving to caves for vacation for example* :p) and for extreme scenarios if the benefits^ far outweigh its restrictions.

 

*seriously, if you are going to woods or cabins or islands for a vacation, leave your xbox at home. That's the ####ing point of such vacations.

^just to be clear, Microsoft failed to properly explain/demonstrate the benefits. They ####ed it up, no doubt.

 

 

When someone chooses to design something that not everyone can use for whatever reason, it is not because they are being mean or ignorant of reality. Usually, its because they want to provide some sort of new service or a premium experience for those that want access.

Steam is not an option for many people around the world, but Valve is not being mean by offering the service. So if MS or any company wanted to offer say a digital download only service, it wouldn't be mean, it just wouldn't be for everyone.

These companies are not coming into this with emotional baggage or bad intent. Their goal is to make money and they make money by offering compelling services and exciting customers.

 

 

But we're not talking about going to the cabin in the woods, we're not talking about some rare occasion. Which part of this do you guys not get? We're talking about something that happens all the time - hurricanes, typhoons, earthquakes. Services get cut. I'm not saying don't make the product online..i'm saying allow it to work offline, at least to some extent. Going out of your way to design it so that it simply DOES NOT work offline is the very definition of mean and narrow minded.

 

Baji, your examples just keep getting worse dude...MS did not say people moving to caves. MS said people who for some reason are offline for more than 24 hours. Don said people on a nuclear submarine - in effect dissing members of the military, something you simply do not do as a corporate leader.

 

And i never said companies are expected to lose money, never said they should not push for progress. But they should be realistic. You guys are going out of your way to defend logic that is borderline sociopathic - "your router died while you were away on a business trip for a week? NOT OUR PROBLEM! Your console is deactivated, your games have been removed. You need to reactivate everything after you get a new router. Mach schnell!" :rolleyes:

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But we're not talking about going to the cabin in the woods, we're not talking about some rare occasion. Which part of this do you guys not get? We're talking about something that happens all the time - hurricanes, typhoons, earthquakes. Services get cut. I'm not saying don't make the product online..i'm saying allow it to work offline, at least to some extent. Going out of your way to design it so that it simply DOES NOT work offline is the very definition of mean and narrow minded.

 

Baji, your examples just keep getting worse dude...MS did not say people moving to caves. MS said people who for some reason are offline for more than 24 hours. Don said people on a nuclear submarine - in effect dissing members of the military, something you simply do not do as a corporate leader.

 

And i never said companies are expected to lose money, never said they should not push for progress. But they should be realistic. You guys are going out of your way to defend logic that is borderline sociopathic - "your router died while you were away on a business trip for a week? NOT OUR PROBLEM! Your console is deactivated, your games have been removed. You need to reactivate everything after you get a new router. Mach schnell!" :rolleyes:

 

For the type of convenience and service Microsoft wanted to provide, it was necessary. You can't have disc-less consoles and game sharing without DRM. Without DRM, it's exceedingly easy to abuse.

DRM is necessary for disc-less game playing for the same exact reason why PSN has DRM for digital downloads.

 

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Baji, your examples just keep getting worse dude...MS did not say people moving to caves. MS said people who for some reason are offline for more than 24 hours. Don said people on a nuclear submarine - in effect dissing members of the military, something you simply do not do as a corporate leader.

Actually that's not my example. That was often sighted as an example of why a console needs to work offline by someone here on neowin. I don't remember who unfortunately.
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For the type of convenience and service Microsoft wanted to provide, it was necessary. You can't have disc-less consoles and game sharing without DRM. Without DRM, it's exceedingly easy to abuse.

DRM is necessary for disc-less game playing for the same exact reason why PSN has DRM for digital downloads.

 

 

Well then they were clearly ahead of their time in thinking this was doable and would sit well with the target audience. Even an ardent Xbox lover such as myself (the kind that buys NUTSJITSU for $7 on release) thought it was way out of line to propose such a restrictive system. Certainly not as the default and presumably only option. If things go well, maybe next year we can have a disc-free version of X1 as a trial, but at least people will have a choice.

 

 

Actually that's not my example. That was often sighted as an example of why a console needs to work offline by someone here on neowin. I don't remember who unfortunately.

 

Hahaha that's ok, i know what you mean. Most likely hermits in caves aren't interested in gaming, but a company that wants gaming to prosper and also wants to make money may want to consider catering even to them, as i don't think it would cause a costly design change. Maybe the hermit walks to the nearest town and buys disc-based games at the Target there? Let them then play those games offline back at the cave, why not? Or maybe they have Wi-Fi somehow in the cave? All i'm saying is making money generally entails being inclusive, not exclusive. Exclusive enterprises may be able to charge more per product, but they will never out-revenue inclusive enterprises.

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Well then they were clearly ahead of their time in thinking this was doable and would sit well with the target audience. Even an ardent Xbox lover such as myself (the kind that buys NUTSJITSU for $7 on release) thought it was way out of line to propose such a restrictive system. Certainly not as the default and presumably only option. If things go well, maybe next year we can have a disc-free version of X1 as a trial, but at least people will have a choice.

 

Or perhaps the gaming industry media decided to paint a picture that didn't exist in order to destroy the possibility of these features coming to fruition? There was a lot of scare tactics going around that had no real evidence to back them up. And honestly, neo you make it sound like not making it work offline equates to an intentional negative they are imposing on you for no reason. It's not like they were like, "Lets be jerks this time and give them a useless restriction." They had specific reasons to do it, many of which we'll never know about.

 

The point of view that Microsoft is simply just limiting you for ###### and giggles is the wrong way to look at it.

And we still don't really know if the 24-hr connection would be enforced if the disk was used directly. There's just too many "if's" to say if it was really worth it or not.

The fact is, the gaming community was up in arms over possibilitiesNot reality.

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Or perhaps the gaming industry media decided to paint a picture that didn't exist in order to destroy the possibility of these features coming to fruition? There was a lot of scare tactics going around that had no real evidence to back them up. And honestly, neo you make it sound like not making it work offline equates to an intentional negative they are imposing on you for no reason. It's not like they were like, "Lets be jerks this time and give them a useless restriction." They had specific reasons to do it, many of which we'll never know about.

 

The point of view that Microsoft is simply just limiting you for ##### and giggles is the wrong way to look at it.

And we still don't really know if the 24-hr connection would be enforced if the disk was used directly. There's just too many "if's" to say if it was really worth it or not.

The fact is, the gaming community was up in arms over possibilitiesNot reality.

 

Hahaha sorry man, but couldn't help reading the first part of your reply in Bane voice. "Or perhaps he is wondering why someone would sell him a gaming console only to disable his games if he goes offline for more than a day" :laugh:

 

It is however true that we don't know the facts, and the reaction was indeed based on a lot of speculation. And i never said MS didn't have reasons or that they wanted to impose those restrictions just "for reasons". They probably had the future of gaming circa 2050 in mind, which is great, but not realistic in 2013. Aiming to force this design on a target audience that clearly didn't want it (in the majority) or even didn't understand it is mean and, as we've seen, detrimental to those who try to force the issue. I said they were most likely ahead of their time, and the future will judge their ideas as worthy eventually, but not now.

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It is however true that we don't know the facts, and the reaction was indeed based on a lot of speculation. And i never said MS didn't have reasons or that they wanted to impose those restrictions just "for reasons". They probably had the future of gaming circa 2050 in mind, which is great, but not realistic in 2013. Aiming to force this design on a target audience that clearly didn't want it (in the majority) or even didn't understand it is mean and, as we've seen, detrimental to those who try to force the issue. I said they were most likely ahead of their time, and the future will judge their ideas as worthy eventually, but not now.

 

Not sure why people considered the DRM ahead of its time which is the reason it didn't work out. It didn't work out because the majority of people didn't want it. Its like saying if Coca Cola joined up with Bear Grylls and released a drink "urine in a can" and it flopped, it was just ahead of its time the company was thinking drinks circa 2050, not now in 2014. Either all console makers force the DRM restrictions on us and we have no choice or the company that wants to enforce the DRM restriction sells it to us with benefits that outweigh the negatives.

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