234 posts in this topic

What I'm getting at is the huge paradox in your argument. They have to sell the idea, but too scared to do so. Well then it's no wonder how things ended. There exists no event that the hardcore isn't interested in that casuals are. E3 is the biggest, but CES, Build, PAX, Gamescom and TGS are all for the hardcore. If they're too scared to talk about it, how do they ever sell it without using those events to do so. It's too expensive to start their own, and it wouldn't have the same impact / take too long if they did "infomercial" type videos on the dashboard. All you would do is sell to the gamers already invested with a snail's pace. So what do they do?

Did I say they were scared to do it?

My goodness, MS can't win can they?

MS reacted to feedback. Most people don't want to see Kinect only game demos at events that are suppose to be about the core gamer. They are especially sensitive to that for E3. So MS did what people wanted and toned it down for most of those events. That meant that MS would have to directly reach consumers via other means such as commercials on TV, retail exposure, and just general evangelizing at the events where its more acceptable to showcase such stuff.

They can still show off motion based games at E3, but they just have to do it on the show floor, not during the keynotes. Its the keynotes that everyone focuses on.

I'm not saying Kinect is for kinect-only games. I've covered every category we know in my replies today and in previous topics. You can essentially break down kinect support into 3 categories:

 

Kinect games

Kinect supported games

and OS support.

 

The only one which has made any sort of impact is the OS functionality and even then to a niche group. The 2 former categories have yet to show compelling reasons to ever own one or to even develop for it. You can't shoehorn features in which are better suited to the controller (which is kinect support games e.g CoD, Skyrim etc). Kinect only games have some success when they suit the gameplay, something like Dance Central is undoubtedly better with motion controls than anything else, but the issue is the genre appeals to a niche and so you're not going to be raking money in from the hardcore either. Indie games are split between these 2 categories too. It doesn't change anything because they're a smaller studio or because their games are download only.

There is value to be had there, you just don't feel its good value, there is not much more to say. Nothing I say is going to change how you feel about that.

I feel there is good value there, but again, just a single person.

I feel having the ubiquitous voice commands across games and the system has value. I also feel that having some motion based games has value and that the other os features creates value. This is all a subjective point, so I don't see why your trying so hard to get it. Your on the other side of the subjective points.

I'd like to hear from some of the people who were disappointed by the news last week and find out what sort of support they expected to see for Kinect on X1? What type of investment is going to save it? There's no need to worry about support for the OS ever being abandoned. Microsoft never dropped the support for Kinect 1 on the 360 even after it was long dead, right up to the latest dashboard in 2013.

 

That GB article I mentioned earlier is here

Its not about removing features, its about improving the ones there and adding new ones down the line.

Outside of that, some are worried that this could mean fewer indies pick up kinect and try to make cool games out of it. Then there is some worry that developers in general might be less motivated to throw in things like voice command support or some gesture controls where it made sense. This is not about what is happening right now, but what happens over time. Its a worry that you can just dismiss by reminding everyone of how little use Kinect gets, but that won't change their thinking.

I don't know why your trying to make sense of it though. This is all behind us now anyway. You have the same info now that you had before the announcement. Some people just feel differently than you do about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as the Giant Bomb article goes, I agree with the sentiments of the author early in the article.

It's too bad how it all turned out. There have been some gems as far as games go and there has been some promising talk about possible games for the X1.

It just never clicked enough with the gaming crowd and now it is where it is. MS was unable to cultivate excitement around experimentation with Kinect. Some indies are trying now and even last gen saw some sleeper gems like Leedmees.

MS tried to create more value with the OS integration stuff, but then failed to properly showcase that and communicate its value.

The conclusion of the article pretty much mirrors the worry of some people here: That MS will transition to more token support (not just gaming wise, but adding any more os integration/improvements) similar to Sony's strategy. I still think its possible they don't, but we will see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I say they were scared to do it?

My goodness, MS can't win can they?

MS reacted to feedback. Most people don't want to see Kinect only game demos at events that are suppose to be about the core gamer. They are especially sensitive to that for E3. So MS did what people wanted and toned it down for most of those events. That meant that MS would have to directly reach consumers via other means such as commercials on TV, retail exposure, and just general evangelizing at the events where its more acceptable to showcase such stuff.

They can still show off motion based games at E3, but they just have to do it on the show floor, not during the keynotes. Its the keynotes that everyone focuses on.

There is value to be had there, you just don't feel its good value, there is not much more to say. Nothing I say is going to change how you feel about that.

I feel there is good value there, but again, just a single person.

I feel having the ubiquitous voice commands across games and the system has value. I also feel that having some motion based games has value and that the other os features creates value. This is all a subjective point, so I don't see why your trying so hard to get it. Your on the other side of the subjective points.

Its not about removing features, its about improving the ones there and adding new ones down the line.

Outside of that, some are worried that this could mean fewer indies pick up kinect and try to make cool games out of it. Then there is some worry that developers in general might be less motivated to throw in things like voice command support or some gesture controls where it made sense. This is not about what is happening right now, but what happens over time. Its a worry that you can just dismiss by reminding everyone of how little use Kinect gets, but that won't change their thinking.

I don't know why your trying to make sense of it though. This is all behind us now anyway. You have the same info now that you had before the announcement. Some people just feel differently than you do about it.

 

I'm removing myself from the argument really, because as you know I don't use kinect and I doubt there is anything they could ever do to change that. I was open to using it many years ago and see some value when it comes to games like Dance Central or even fitness games / apps. I think Dance Central is great, but you can't sell a product forever with dance games as the hook, especially not when you burden the whole install base with the price.

 

We knew MS wouldn't "win" regardless of what route they took. Keep it and they fall further and further behind Sony with nothing to even justify the kinect's existence. Removing it and you turn people away because it looks like they don't have a vision for their product or it loses appeal because it's now just a slightly more powerful 360. We went over that and agreed months ago that would happen. I'm not here to discuss winning or losing anything though.

 

Commercials won't have the impact they need to sell a product. It reminds someone to buy something, not sell them on a product. Especially true in countries like US and UK where TV use is going down, never mind people skip the ads every chance they can. Sounds like a big waste of money.

 

Retail exposure. Yup, it would definitely work. I didn't buy Kinect until I tried it for myself and enjoyed it. That sort of strategy isn't going to sell consoles very fast though (if they were to keep kinect in the box or not). You'd be fighting an uphill struggle all the way.

 

And again, events. They belong to the hardcore. Unless you expect them to turn up at Crufts or Chelsea Flower Show, their audience they want to sell to is at the ones I named previously. Kinect needs to be front and centre if they want to sell it. Show floors are a given, there are lots of demos behind closed doors too which we don't hear about but press have access to. But you're then relying on the journalists to pass that message on what they saw and to sell the idea to gamers. You're again appealing to the hardcore because casuals aren't the ones reading every article online like we do. The closest they'll get to them is word of mouth from their hardcore friends.

 

It's pretty clear that the majority don't see the value when it comes to voice commands or motion games; don't bring me into it. I own an X1 and the kinect, so it's useless pointing me out as an example of not seeing value. The millions of people on the fence because Kinect was bundled or buying the PS4 are the ones who don't see the value. I just don't care to use it or even remove it from the box.

 

I sincerely doubt many are worried about the indie scene. As I say time and time again, most wouldn't ever pick a console because of indie games, they certainly wouldn't pick one because an indie game has niche kinect support. It's icing on the cake if you had a lot of kinect support already, but that's not the case and doesn't seem to be for the forseeable future (and not because Kinect is removed now, the calendar was empty for kinect besides Fantasia).

 

As for voice command support, I don't know a single kinect fan who uses them over the controller. Many people choosing between the PS4 and X1 wouldn't care about it either I suspect. It's a gimmick and doesn't do anything new we couldn't do before. Kinect needs a USP when it comes to gaming, if it doesn't have it you can bet your game will flop.

 

At the end of the day I just wanted to hear your thoughts what Microsoft should do if they never want to talk about kinect, how do they sell it. I don't expect you to have an answer, because I'm sure if you had one we wouldn't be talking and you'd have a nice fat pay check to go with a new home in Redmond ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We knew MS wouldn't "win" regardless of what route they took. Keep it and they fall further and further behind Sony with nothing to even justify the kinect's existence. Removing it and you turn people away because it looks like they don't have a vision for their product or it loses appeal because it's now just a slightly more powerful 360. We went over that and agreed months ago that would happen. I'm not here to discuss winning or losing anything though.

Exactly. You make a great point. Either way, it was bad news. But hey, for the majority of users like yourself, I hope this means more excitement for the platform and new buyers.

 

Retail exposure. Yup, it would definitely work. I didn't buy Kinect until I tried it for myself and enjoyed it. That sort of strategy isn't going to sell consoles very fast though (if they were to keep kinect in the box or not). You'd be fighting an uphill struggle all the way.

Basically, MS just needs to focus on showing off Kinect games on the show floor of the big events and showing off all of the other things that Kinect does in the back ground that many people are still unaware of. I know first hand that demos of features carry a lot more weight then say seeing it in a commercial. It may be slower at first, but if people have a good hands on demo, they tend to spread that fact around. It results in good things.

MS did poorly in the marketing side of things. If they weren't going to have a ton of kinect only games, then that meant they had to show off the other stuff, which they have done badly. I know because I found out things that MS has never brought up in a big way since I own one. I feel like I could show off the features better than MS has :laugh:

Motion gaming specifically is much easier to sell in person then trying to demo it on a stage.

 

And again, events. They belong to the hardcore. Unless you expect them to turn up at Crufts or Chelsea Flower Show, their audience they want to sell to is at the ones I named previously. Kinect needs to be front and centre if they want to sell it. Show floors are a given, there are lots of demos behind closed doors too which we don't hear about but press have access to. But you're then relying on the journalists to pass that message on what they saw and to sell the idea to gamers. You're again appealing to the hardcore because casuals aren't the ones reading every article online like we do. The closest they'll get to them is word of mouth from their hardcore friends.

You don't have to convince all of the hardcore, just 'enough'. I'm hardcore and yet Kinect has somehow stuck. MS didn't convince enough to spread around positive things. That goes back to their poor marketing and demos.

 

It's pretty clear that the majority don't see the value when it comes to voice commands or motion games; don't bring me into it. I own an X1 and the kinect, so it's useless pointing me out as an example of not seeing value. The millions of people on the fence because Kinect was bundled or buying the PS4 are the ones who don't see the value. I just don't care to use it or even remove it from the box.

Exactly, you were all for removal from day one and you were clearly among the majority.

That's why we are where we are today. MS saw the interest not be there and took this course. Again, not a bad decision, just a disappointing one for some.

 

I sincerely doubt many are worried about the indie scene. As I say time and time again, most wouldn't ever pick a console because of indie games, they certainly wouldn't pick one because an indie game has niche kinect support. It's icing on the cake if you had a lot of kinect support already, but that's not the case and doesn't seem to be for the forseeable future (and not because Kinect is removed now, the calendar was empty for kinect besides Fantasia).

that's fine, but to the developers themselves, it does matter. I really don't think it should be dismissed for all since I've seen people get excited for indie games.

 

As for voice command support, I don't know a single kinect fan who uses them over the controller. Many people choosing between the PS4 and X1 wouldn't care about it either I suspect. It's a gimmick and doesn't do anything new we couldn't do before. Kinect needs a USP when it comes to gaming, if it doesn't have it you can bet your game will flop.

Have they used voice commands to launch an app or a game that was not already sitting at the home page? If not, that is one part of it that saves me time navigating.

I could go into more, but the point is, its cool that you know some kinect fans and that they don't use voice commands. I guess they represent the majority since things turned out as they did.

All I can talk about is my own experiences and those that I know.

 

At the end of the day I just wanted to hear your thoughts what Microsoft should do if they never want to talk about kinect, how do they sell it. I don't expect you to have an answer, because I'm sure if you had one we wouldn't be talking and you'd have a nice fat pay check to go with a new home in Redmond ;)

Hopefully my clarification above was helpful.

I'm just one of those weirdos that uses Kinect :laugh:. don't worry though, this talk will die off. All of the blogs and websites will get these articles out of their system over the course of a couple months and then the discussions will fade away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the incoming price drop, and the price raise for the PS4 in Canada, this means the XB1 will be cheaper over there  :s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly. You make a great point. Either way, it was bad news. But hey, for the majority of users like yourself, I hope this means more excitement for the platform and new buyers. Basically, MS just needs to focus on showing off Kinect games on the show floor of the big events and showing off all of the other things that Kinect does in the back ground that many people are still unaware of. I know first hand that demos of features carry a lot more weight then say seeing it in a commercial. It may be slower at first, but if people have a good hands on demo, they tend to spread that fact around. It results in good things.MS did poorly in the marketing side of things. If they weren't going to have a ton of kinect only games, then that meant they had to show off the other stuff, which they have done badly. I know because I found out things that MS has never brought up in a big way since I own one. I feel like I could show off the features better than MS has :laugh:Motion gaming specifically is much easier to sell in person then trying to demo it on a stage. You don't have to convince all of the hardcore, just 'enough'. I'm hardcore and yet Kinect has somehow stuck. MS didn't convince enough to spread around positive things. That goes back to their poor marketing and demos. Exactly, you were all for removal from day one and you were clearly among the majority.That's why we are where we are today. MS saw the interest not be there and took this course. Again, not a bad decision, just a disappointing one for some. that's fine, but to the developers themselves, it does matter. I really don't think it should be dismissed for all since I've seen people get excited for indie games. Have they used voice commands to launch an app or a game that was not already sitting at the home page? If not, that is one part of it that saves me time navigating.I could go into more, but the point is, its cool that you know some kinect fans and that they don't use voice commands. I guess they represent the majority since things turned out as they did.All I can talk about is my own experiences and those that I know. Hopefully my clarification above was helpful.I'm just one of those weirdos that uses Kinect :laugh:. don't worry though, this talk will die off. All of the blogs and websites will get these articles out of their system over the course of a couple months and then the discussions will fade away.

I must definitely be in the minority, I can't picture using my X1 without Kinect. The last 2 or so updates have made Kinect a much better to use. I love using it for everything but gaming so far. Even when they update the X1 for controller use, I will still use voice.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must definitely be in the minority, I can't picture using my X1 without Kinect. The last 2 or so updates have made Kinect a much better to use. I love using it for everything but gaming so far. Even when they update the X1 for controller use, I will still use voice.

Yep, your part of the minority group.

I feel the same way, especially considering what MS have coming considering their recent steps regarding voice controls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must definitely be in the minority, I can't picture using my X1 without Kinect. The last 2 or so updates have made Kinect a much better to use. I love using it for everything but gaming so far. Even when they update the X1 for controller use, I will still use voice.

 

While i grew to like Kinect as a UI tool, i can definitely live without it and the overall X1 experience for me has not been diminished - not really. I miss the auto sign in with the hi, which i found neat, but i can wait for my Kinect to be repaired/replaced to get that back. Overall i now think this is good news, though it seems MS are doing a lot of stuff in hindsight that we all knew was going to happen anyway. This is not the best behavior for leaders in technology and business, but as i am a big supporter of MS i don't really mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New pricing is starting to appear around Australia for stand alone packages. Will be $499 + Forza. That's $50 cheaper then the ps4 now with a game thrown in to.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.