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#46 George P

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 23:22

What sort of reason for "why?" are people looking for?  The reserve was put in place as a safe bet to make sure Kinect and multitasking/snapping of apps worked smooth and didn't get in the way of the games.  That's all there is to it, it's not magically 10% going to Kinect because it needs all that 10% to work, that's not how I read it, that's not how they talked about it either. 

 

We've known about the change coming, it was said months ago, way in advance of any talks about introducing a SKU without Kinect in it.  Removing the Kinect, as they've said, doesn't magically give you 10% overall GPU boost, so that's one thing that was reported wrong.   EG's line is also off, I don't know who the heck they talked to, they don't list a name just some MS guy who replied, as if we've never had company dude A reply to a question with info that's wrong to some degree or fully, it's happened before.

 

Phils newest tweet posted above is clear about it, a reserve is now flexible and not fixed, but it's still there, there's still some amount going to the rest of the system, be it for Kinect + apps/snapping or just apps and snapping if there's no Kinect plug-ed in.  What more questions do people have?  Why did they take Kinect out?  To drop the price, that's it, no other reason for it.   I don't care what other type of PR spin YM might try to shine on it, it was business and nothing more, they needed an automatic drop in price, now, and fans wanted this option, so two birds with one stone.  




#47 Andrew

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 23:39

What sort of reason for "why?" are people looking for?  The reserve was put in place as a safe bet to make sure Kinect and multitasking/snapping of apps worked smooth and didn't get in the way of the games.  That's all there is to it, it's not magically 10% going to Kinect because it needs all that 10% to work, that's not how I read it, that's not how they talked about it either. 

 

We've known about the change coming, it was said months ago, way in advance of any talks about introducing a SKU without Kinect in it.  Removing the Kinect, as they've said, doesn't magically give you 10% overall GPU boost, so that's one thing that was reported wrong.   EG's line is also off, I don't know who the heck they talked to, they don't list a name just some MS guy who replied, as if we've never had company dude A reply to a question with info that's wrong to some degree or fully, it's happened before.

 

Phils newest tweet posted above is clear about it, a reserve is now flexible and not fixed, but it's still there, there's still some amount going to the rest of the system, be it for Kinect + apps/snapping or just apps and snapping if there's no Kinect plug-ed in.  What more questions do people have?  Why did they take Kinect out?  To drop the price, that's it, no other reason for it.   I don't care what other type of PR spin YM might try to shine on it, it was business and nothing more, they needed an automatic drop in price, now, and fans wanted this option, so two birds with one stone.  

 

I would imagine Kinect-fans would like a proper reason to be given. Many of them are angry about it as we know and believe developers are now going to ignore it. All I did was post the story to answer those Qs for some. I'm not looking for another reason because I've got one. Others are still replying to me as if I'm talking about Polygon's / Verge's false information and quoting tweets from Larry and Phil to back it up when that's a completely different issue. Like I say, people need to read the topic properly and stop jumping the gun / down my throat over arguments that aren't happening except with themselves.

 

So with that, back on topic please because it has been dragged on long enough.



#48 trooper11

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 15:13

I like how now there is this underclass of users referred to as 'Kinect-fans' now that Kinect has been unbunbled and any conversation that relates to Kinect is joined by a reference to those poor souls :laugh:

As far as you guys arguing over which MS statement is the 'definitive' statement, Andy is right that he is merely quoting what MS shared EG. So you have to take that at face value. However, comments made by MS after those quotes were made would seem to point to a different conclusion, one that is not about Kinect alone or necessarily about removing it. So each one of you are free to have your 'reasons' based on which quote you think carries more weight.

Boil this all down and you are left with more fun ammo for those that are not Kinect (or X1 for that matter) fans to use when breaking down the the missteps.

For me, I think the good news is that MS is making good on their promise from around launch that they were going to optimize the SDK to allow for more access to reserved resources. Somehow that has become a negative point to some, but I only see great news here.

#49 George P

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 15:31

People are also saying that their Kinect works better now after the June update, so I'd say they not only managed to reduce it's impact on the system so that developers can use more than before but optimized it so that it doesn't need as much either.  I think the SDK will default you as a developer to a preset of sorts, but if need be you can request more, the system will do so, it's like the PC and Windows, it'll give your game more and if something else was sitting there in the BG it'll be paged out of RAM.

 

I think now with external support coming as well we've seen yet another thing that plays into this, people have posted that loading times are faster on their external drives compared to the internal which as a PC user that never seems to be the case, internal will always give you better speeds.  The early tests with swapping out the 500GB internal and adding in a SSD also showed very little to no difference so it made it not worth voiding your warranty.    Seeing how this is a Windows system at it's core I think this change is telling, the internal HDD has to be used for paging, and often, so not only is it reading game data but doing other reads/writes to which has a impact.  When you switch to that external drive I doubt the system stops using the internal, the internal has to be still in use as it's still the OS drive and has the pagefile.    So when we're loading a game off of the external, it's just reading the bits and little else while the internal is doing more work (this is why I think they also used a slower RPM drive, keep heat down even more and have it last longer). 

 

As far as the reserve, it's still there, it sounds to me like developers have to code specifically for it and ask for more, the system will then do what it can to give them what they need.  Apps you've loaded will get paged out and they'll be suspended so I'm willing to bet that with or even without Kinect, if we have a game that we know for sure is using more resources and has tapped into that extra reserve, multitasking could very well take a hit.  People could see more apps have to reload/redraw their UI when you switch to them compared to before.



#50 Andrew

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 15:36

I like how now there is this underclass of users referred to as 'Kinect-fans' now that Kinect has been unbunbled and any conversation that relates to Kinect is joined by a reference to those poor souls :laugh:

As far as you guys arguing over which MS statement is the 'definitive' statement, Andy is right that he is merely quoting what MS shared EG. So you have to take that at face value. However, comments made by MS after those quotes were made would seem to point to a different conclusion, one that is not about Kinect alone or necessarily about removing it. So each one of you are free to have your 'reasons' based on which quote you think carries more weight.

Boil this all down and you are left with more fun ammo for those that are not Kinect (or X1 for that matter) fans to use when breaking down the the missteps.

For me, I think the good news is that MS is making good on their promise from around launch that they were going to optimize the SDK to allow for more access to reserved resources. Somehow that has become a negative point to some, but I only see great news here.

 

Agreed, really looking forward to seeing the improvements once the June SDK is put into action. Should definitely bring the visuals up nicely while we wait for DX12.



#51 vcfan

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 15:59

As far as the reserve, it's still there, it sounds to me like developers have to code specifically for it and ask for more, the system will then do what it can to give them what they need.  Apps you've loaded will get paged out and they'll be suspended so I'm willing to bet that with or even without Kinect, if we have a game that we know for sure is using more resources and has tapped into that extra reserve, multitasking could very well take a hit.  People could see more apps have to reload/redraw their UI when you switch to them compared to before.

 

they dont need to reserve anything for system content rendering. the hardware will automatically slot the system stuff in when appropriate without affecting graphics performance. its obvious the hard reserve was done because they were behind on the driver. this stuff is designed in the hardware for a reason.

 

To facilitate this, in addition to asynchronous compute queues, the Xbox One hardware supports two concurrent render pipes. The two render pipes can allow the hardware to render title content at high priority while concurrently rendering system content at low priority. The GPU hardware scheduler is designed to maximise throughput and automatically fills "holes" in the high-priority processing. This can allow the system rendering to make use of the ROPs for fill, for example, while the title is simultaneously doing synchronous compute operations on the Compute Units.


http://www.eurogamer...x-one-interview

 



#52 George P

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 16:09

they dont need to reserve anything for system content rendering. the hardware will automatically slot the system stuff in when appropriate without affecting graphics performance. its obvious the hard reserve was done because they were behind on the driver. this stuff is designed in the hardware for a reason.

 


http://www.eurogamer...x-one-interview

 

 

Some would say that having to handle two instead of just the game is part of the reason why games aren't hitting that magic 1080p/60fps number.    We'll see how it goes with games that are coming out after this point, because odds are they're going to use the new SDK but we could see older games get updates but I'm not holding my breath on that one.



#53 trooper11

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 18:05

Yeah I really do think the updates for Kinect are being brushed aside. Its kind of sad to see that happen considering how much of a positive impact it seems to be having for those that want to use Kinect, but were having trouble getting it to work right.

Instead, that news is buried and ignored underneath the discussion of the new SDK. Don't get me wrong, the new SDK is a big deal, but improving Kinect should also be a big deal in my opinion.

#54 Vigilant

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 21:19

I don't think it will, I expect there's still enough left to run the voice controls, which don't take up as much as the camera tracking does I'm sure. So that rumored 10% reserved figure could have been cut down to 5% or as low as 2% just for voice and a little video. We don't know how they did it, it could also be that they just updated the SDK to the point that it takes better advantage of the 32MB ESRAM that developers have had to manually manage for now? Either way it should be interesting to see how this works out going forward.


I do realize I am late to the game but I thought I could clarify something. From talking to people I know who mess with this, it's my understanding that the Kinect should still work fine if the game explicitly calls for the Kinect. In those scenarios the Kinect will work as usual. What is changing from what I've heard is that those reserves for the games are no longer held if the game doesn't explicitly use it.

Core system utilization that is reserved for system level Kinect from what I understand is for the most part unchanged.

Of course all of this is early on, and actual real world implementation could be different

#55 trooper11

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 23:29

I do realize I am late to the game but I thought I could clarify something. From talking to people I know who mess with this, it's my understanding that the Kinect should still work fine if the game explicitly calls for the Kinect. In those scenarios the Kinect will work as usual. What is changing from what I've heard is that those reserves for the games are no longer held if the game doesn't explicitly use it.

Core system utilization that is reserved for system level Kinect from what I understand is for the most part unchanged.

Of course all of this is early on, and actual real world implementation could be different



That was exactly my impression based on all of the reports leading up to this.

Its just that some people have seized on the idea that this is all down to eliminating Kinect resulting in more performance. Instead, it seems more reasonable to think that MS have optimized the sdk/system in order to still allow for Kinect to function as normal in all situations and give developers more to work with with easier controls.

#56 OP Showan

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:10

'Destiny' 'Sunset Overdrive' will use extra Xbox One power from dev kit update

 

http://majornelson.c...eve-of-e3-2014/

 

Xbox head Phil Spencer made an appearance on Major Nelson’s podcast Sunday evening on the eve of E3 2014 where he confirmed that upcoming games like “Destiny” and “Sunset Overdrive” will make use of the upcoming Xbox One dev kit update that makes more of the console’s GPU power available. He also clarified exactly what the upcoming dev kit does and doesn't mean for gamers.

The Xbox One dev kit update that is being made available to developers in June will free up 10 percent of the console’s GPU that was reserved for use with the Kinect. Spencer was the one to make the original announcement and confirmed that “Sunset Overdrive” will take advantage of the update.

“They are going to use the increased capabilities that lowering the reserve will have to actually make a more vibrant and more alive gameplay space,” Spencer claimed. “Even our friends at Bungie…they are going to up the resolution of ‘Destiny’ based on this change.”

Both Major Nelson (aka Xbox Director of Programming Larry Hyrb) and Spencer called the freeing up the reserve a normal cycle in console development that was also seen with the Xbox 360. Spencer also reiterated that, despite reports to the contrary, Xbox One owners who unplug their Kinect will suddenly see an increase in power. That’s not the way it works as the freeing up of the power reserved from the GPU for the motion sensor happens on a game by game basis through code.

“Everybody should leave Kinect plugged in,” Spencer explained. “Because as soon as the game isn’t running anymore, you quit the game, you go back to the dash, you are going to have all the great functionality that you ever had.”

As mentioned before, the freeing up of resources and general tool improvements with the Xbox One dev kit will have no effect on current Xbox One games. It’s not even known if developers will be able to go back and tweak the game with a patch to run at a higher or more stable framerate. That does nothing for resolution though which would require a rework of all of a game’s assets

 

 

http://www.examiner....-dev-kit-update



#57 JonnyLH

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:02

I do realize I am late to the game but I thought I could clarify something. From talking to people I know who mess with this, it's my understanding that the Kinect should still work fine if the game explicitly calls for the Kinect. In those scenarios the Kinect will work as usual. What is changing from what I've heard is that those reserves for the games are no longer held if the game doesn't explicitly use it.

Core system utilization that is reserved for system level Kinect from what I understand is for the most part unchanged.

Of course all of this is early on, and actual real world implementation could be different

Yup, exactly right.

From an architectural point of view, the only thing the GPU needs to do is process and understand the raw video data being fed from the Kinect. The snapped apps and OS portion is handled by the reserved CPU cores and the voice processing from Kinect is done by SHAPE (which was mentioned in that technical interview).

 

That should mean full functionality with the Kinect plugged in with the game using the reserved 10%. Obviously any Kinect explicit functionality, voice excluding, wouldn't be possible. 

 

They always said this was coming, even before launch so this is hardly surprising. What I'm interested in is if this leads to any patches for games like Titanfall where they said they would increase the resolution on the back of this. Even games like PvZ which run at a lock 60 in 900p. The game even runs in 1080p in split-screen with no AA so if that was patched, that'd be cool.

 

The Destiny/SO article is nice to read as well, especially Bungies comments. It was rumored for the X1 version to be 900p so if there's an increase, most likely 1080p.