Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Gerowen

Gunpoint Robbery Captured on Go-Pro

57 posts in this topic

Source: http://www.funkertactical.com/gunpoint-robbery-captured-on-go-pro/

 

 

 

The cameraman was on a ride in South Africa on May 31st when he was stopped by three armed men. They took his cell phone, car keys, Oakleys, and bike. They were not aware that they were being filmed.
 
What would you have done in this situation?

 

 

 

http://youtu.be/ECs8ZrmH8D8


Weird that they didn't take the GoPro.  I mean you can see the shadow of it sticking up off his helmet, maybe they didn't know what it was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soon as they turn drop to the deck left of the road crown, retrieve the .40 from the IWB, assume prone position (reduces your target aspect), call them out. If resistance or flight, open fire. Fleeing felon rule (armed robbery.)

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DocM, on 16 Jun 2014 - 13:39, said:

Soon as they turn drop to the deck left of the road crown, retrieve the .40 from the IWB, assume prone position (reduces your target aspect), call them out. If resistance or flight, open fire. Fleeing felon rule (armed robbery.)

You're going to shoot someone in the back, probably killing them, over some replaceable possessions? Nice.

 

Not saying these guys are upstanding citizens, but human life should have a bit more value.

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're going to shoot someone in the back, probably killing them, over some replaceable possessions? Nice.

 

Not saying these guys are upstanding citizens, but human life should have a bit more value.

If humans have value, the values vary from person to person, and these people are valued very very very low. I'd rate dirt higher in value.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soon as they turn drop to the deck left of the road crown, retrieve the .40 from the IWB, assume prone position (reduces your target aspect), call them out. If resistance or flight, open fire. Fleeing felon rule (armed robbery.)

Except the "Fleeing Felon Rule" is subject to the laws of the state you're in (as in it may not exist for you...)...

 

I wouldn't advocate using deadly force against fleeing suspects. It is not worth having to wage a fight in court over and it also isn't worth accidentally striking an innocent bystander. His wallet and bike can be replaced...

 

It would have been justified to use it against the armed suspect on approach (if he could draw and assume firing status in time).

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soon as they turn drop to the deck left of the road crown, retrieve the .40 from the IWB, assume prone position (reduces your target aspect), call them out. If resistance or flight, open fire. Fleeing felon rule (armed robbery.)

 

Sometimes you scare me.

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except the "Fleeing Felon Rule" is subject to the laws of the state you're in (as in it may not exist for you...)...

 

I wouldn't advocate using deadly force against fleeing suspects. It is not worth having to wage a fight in court over and it also isn't worth accidentally striking an innocent bystander. His wallet and bike can be replaced...

 

It would have been justified to use it against the armed suspect on approach (if he could draw and assume firing status in time).

 

I was just about to say, that's a situation where it would have been iffy.  Would you draw on approach and hope you're a better shot than they are?  Do you wait for them to get close, give them enough to satisfy and distract them, then open fire at close range?  That would have been a hairy situation, but personally I think I would have gotten off the bike and started to back away in order to distract them and opened fire while he was still at a distance.  I know I can hit a target at that range, but your average oxygen thief like these guys would probably turn and run and fire wildly.  I've seen videos where supposed "gangstas" stand around a corner and just hold their pistol around and fire blindly into a hall or alley, and never actually hit anything.

 

Also, in this situation, the likelihood of hitting innocent bystanders is pretty non-existent, unless there's a ladybug in the grass that you're counting as a bystander, :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Michigan we have a strong citizen's arrest law, and the fleeing felon rule to back it up.

By calling them out you are attempting a citizen's arrest, and if they turn to fight or continue to flee we can legally stop them with force.

These were armed robbers who are likely to do it again. In the next attempt they may kill someone, perhaps a kid since they're stealing bikes, which makes them an ongoing public menace.

I'd feel a lot worse if I let them go and they capped a kid than dropping their sorry asses.

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the next attempt they may kill someone, perhaps a kid since they're stealing bikes . . .

 

Is a hypothetical situation grounds to murder? I don't think so. They may never kill anyone. Then the only reason someone died is because of you. Life in South Africa is quite a bit different than America, desperation can do interesting things. I don't condone what they did, but I don't think it's worth killing them over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It isn't murder to shoot a fleeing dangerous (by their actions) criminal. What part of armed robbery making them an ongoing danger to the community don't you get? It's justifiable homicide, not a crime, and in these parts would probably get you a medal (not that it matters.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Michigan we have a strong citizen's arrest law, and the fleeing felon rule to back it up.

By calling them out you are attempting a citizen's arrest, and if they turn to fight or continue to flee we can legally stop them with force.

These were armed robbers who are likely to do it again. In the next attempt they may kill someone, perhaps a kid since they're stealing bikes, which makes them an ongoing public menace.

I'd feel a lot worse if I let them go and they capped a kid than dropping their sorry asses.

Agreed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It isn't murder to shoot a fleeing dangerous (by their actions) criminal. It's justifiable homicide, and in these parts would probably get you a medal.

 

In their parts it would probably get you killed. I heard of some really, really crazy stories from the E.R. in Johannesburg while my Wife was working there. It's not 'normal' over there. Your life is worth absolutely nothing to them, nothing.

 

I'm not aware of the fleeing felon rule even being applicable in South Africa and so I can't tell you whether or not it's lawful. Unlawful killings are can be considered murder. I'd like to look this up but I don't really have the time right now, I will later.

 

-edited

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In People v. Crouch (1990) the Michigan Supreme Court held that the US Supreme Court case Tennessee v. Garner limiting when police can shoot fleeing suspects was,

1) a civil rather than criminal action;

2) did not affect Michigan's existing Fleeing Felon Rule; and

3) that a citizen may use deadly force when restraining a fleeing felon in a criminal matter.

This has been reinforced by rulings from the Michigan Attorney General (several different ones, both parties) and the policy has been sent to local police agencies by the Commandant of the Michigan State Police.

Michigan's FFR is settled law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In People v. Crouch (1990) the Michigan Supreme Court held that the US Supreme Court case Tennessee v. Garner limiting when police can shoot fleeing suspects was,

1) a civil rather than criminal action;

2) did not affect Michigan's existing Fleeing Felon Rule; and

3) that a citizen may use deadly force when restraining a fleeing felon in a criminal matter.

This has been reinforced by rulings from the Michigan Attorney General (several different ones, both parties) and the policy has been sent to local police agencies by the Commandant of the Michigan State Police.

Michigan's FFR is settled law.

That may be, but Michigan jurisprudence isn't reflective of the totality of the United States nor the world at large. So, this action may very well be legal in MI and illegal in South Africa or, even, New York.

 

I also highly doubt you would jump off your bike, assume prone, and start opening fire because someone was running out of the bush in MI. If so, I'd argue that you shouldn't be legally allowed to carry... You'd pose an active threat to the citizenry.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, but what the hell are you guys talking about? Did the biker have a gun hidden in the bushes or something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, but what the hell are you guys talking about? Did the biker have a gun hidden in the bushes or something?

Somewhere in the OP there is a question of "What would you do?" essentially. DocM basically gave a play by play of how he would assume prone as soon as he saw the perp running toward him and he would yell something at the perp. If the prep didn't do whatever it was DocM asked or attempted to escape he claimed he would immediately open fire.

A fair bit of the discussion has been questioning whether or not that would have been a wise move. You can't clearly identify the guy as armed until he isn't very far from the biker. The biker also still needs to dismount and draw before he could take the offensive (provided he was armed). The best course of action is likely the way this video played out. Compliance and allowing the bike to be seized unless it escalated and there was sufficient time to draw and lobby an offense. If it played out as it did in this video I would have let the perps go with the bike. DocM would have shot them all in the back...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wrong. I wouldn't be on the bike, they'd stolen it. Cooperate until there's an acceptable opportunity then dive.

Diving to prone is taught in the combat tactics class we can take after our carry license qualifications.

Pop them coming out of the woods, no. At a tactical disadvantage if they're armed.

Pop them while they're attempting to flee after committing the armed robbery, you damn skippy. If they're still within the range of my weapon and skill set.

Fleeing violent criminals don't get the courtesy of a face to face. The idea is to prevent them doing it again by whatever legal means, preferrably a capture but that's THEIR choice.

If I had a bow, they'd get a broadhead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somewhere in the OP there is a question of "What would you do?" essentially. DocM basically gave a play by play of how he would assume prone as soon as he saw the perp running toward him and he would yell something at the perp. If the prep didn't do whatever it was DocM asked or attempted to escape he claimed he would immediately open fire.

A fair bit of the discussion has been questioning whether or not that would have been a wise move. You can't clearly identify the guy as armed until he isn't very far from the biker. The biker also still needs to dismount and draw before he could take the offensive (provided he was armed). The best course of action is likely the way this video played out. Compliance and allowing the bike to be seized unless it escalated and there was sufficient time to draw and lobby an offense. If it played out as it did in this video I would have let the perps go with the bike. DocM would have shot them all in the back...

It doesn't make sense though since the biker didn't have a gun in the video. If were inventing fantasy situations I can say that If I would drop a blue whale out of the sky on them. Wouldn't it be more productive to actually stick to the real scenario rather than fantasy ones? I know many Americans go "Guns! ###### yeah!", but the only weapons in that situation would be rocks at best, unless you'd feel confident to disarm the perps.

 

Wrong. I wouldn't be on the bike, they'd stolen it. Cooperate until there's an acceptable opportunity then dive.

Diving to prone is taught in the combat tactics class we can take after our carry license qualifications.

Pop them coming out of the woods, no. At a tactical disadvantage if they're armed.

Pop them while they're attempting to flee after committing the armed robbery, you damn skippy. If they're still within the range of my weapon and skill set.

Fleeing violent criminals don't get the courtesy of a face to face. The idea is to prevent them doing it again by whatever legal means, preferrably a capture but that's THEIR choice.

If I had a bow, they'd get a broadhead.

DocM, fingers don't fire bullets, no matter how prone you are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The pistol I routinely carry inside my waistband does. Could be anything from a .357 SIG to a .500 Mag. Concealed pistol carry permits are common here.

And here the odds would be high someone out in the woods riding or hiking a trail would have a side arm.

Too many big predators (mountain lions etc.), territorial bears, in season large deer (whitetail, mule, elk or moose), wild hogs etc. to be complacent. Even deer have been known to kill people here. Seen it happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The pistol I routinely carry inside my waistband does. Could be anything from a .357 SIG to a .500 Mag. Concealed pistol carry permits are common here.

And here the odds would be high someone out in the woods riding or hiking a trail would have a side arm.

Too many big predators (mountain lions etc.), territorial bears, in season large deer (whitetail, mule, elk or moose), wild hogs etc. to be complacent. Even deer have been known to kill people here. Seen it happen.

 

Of course if these guys had robbed you in America where such ridiculous gun laws are common they'd have shot you first then robbed you. So your hypothetical situation doesn't apply anyway.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The pistol I routinely carry inside my waistband does. Could be anything from a .357 SIG to a .500 Mag. Concealed pistol carry permits are common here.

And here the odds would be high someone out in the woods riding or hiking a trail would have a side arm.

Too many big predators (mountain lions etc.), territorial bears, in season large deer (whitetail, mule, elk or moose), wild hogs etc. to be complacent. Even deer have been known to kill people here. Seen it happen.

Odd, I was under the impression this did not happen in the US. Do carry on with the fantasy scenario though. I always go biking with my pack of Deinonychus, so I'm not worried, although if I were in the US I'd prefer to go biking inside a Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte tank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow. Idiots.

 

Nice GoPro footage, was wondering if I should get that as a movie camera.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 pages of DocM arguing about Michigan laws and his fantasy of killing someone, in a thread about an incident that happened in South Africa.

Makes sense

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.