us Target asks its customers to kindly not shop while armed with guns

[HawkMan]

It wasn't designed for killing, but it does a damn good job of it, and seems to be involved with a laaaarge percentage.

 

Gun were designed for killing, yes. But then so was the sword, or arrows, or even knives. Are you an advocate of banning those things?

   How do you suggest we solve the mental health issues that are the real problem?

 

 

Oh, and there's a reason they don't allow inmates regular toothbrushes. They tend to whittle them down and stab each other.

And you just essentially repeated my point that it's ridiculous to stop someone from having something, because they MAY hurt someone with it..... But of course, you won't see that.

 

Funny over here swords are only allowed as decorative pieces. And unless you working and need a knife for your job, you're not allowed to carry a knife.

[rr_dRock]

So how many died in the China mass stabbing? Im guessing by the fact you used that example you don't know, like most pro gun extremists who use that example.

 

29. and over 100 people injured.

 

  Btw. I'm not an extremist, and I'd prefer if you didn't refer to me as one.

 

the question was "would you be comfortable with it"? Not if you would accept it.

 

I would be fine with it. The uncomfortableness comes from a lack of control. Just like I don't like other people driving me around. Accepting that not everyone is a psychopath, and being comfortable with them handling nuclear weapons are two different things.

 

 

 

 

Funny over here swords are only allowed as decorative pieces. And unless you working and need a knife for your job, you're not allowed to carry a knife.

 

Interesting. I have one in my pocket right now (a knife, the sword is in the front of my pants!). Not for protection, but because they come in handy a lot of the time.

[HawkMan]

Wrong mass stabbing, you're talking about the one that was a terrorist attack performed by many masked paramilitary attackers.

 

The one you should be comparing to is the school mass stabbing, it's the one that's comparable, and guess what, unlike any of your school shootings, no one died.

[Guest]

Question to you Americans, why do you need weapons in your life?

[nekkidtruth]

Your responses are very similar to people who insist on their right to own a firearm no matter what.  Plainly put, unable/unwilling to understand the other point of view.

 

Never-mind, I remember you and I having pretty much the same discussion in the Gun Debate thread.

 

 

You're the one making that comparison, he was referring to something else.

 

I remember you as well.  You're absolutely right, we have done this dance before.  The difference between my extremism and their's is simple and valid.  I choose to acknowledge the lives lost due to a broken system, they'd rather make excuses.  If I'm an extremist because of that, so be it.

 

The ones in Canada are okay... for Canada. The US will need a totally different and more wide reaching system than Canada.

 

 

The last time I checked, normal sane people don't walk into schools and shoot kids. So you agree the issue is mental health then? 

 

 

 

 

I don't think you're extreme. I've seen much worse, even in this community. I also don't think you're an idiot.

 

The restrictions in place in Canada are a start, I certainly don't find them perfect.

 

Yes, of course it's a mental health issue.  The problem is, anyone at any time can have "mental health issues" for a myriad of different reasons.  That's why no one should have access to guns.  Especially so in a civilian capacity.  But that's all really besides the point.  The fact of the matter is, every day way too many people die in the U.S. because of guns and until a long term solution can be found, the only logical solution would be to limit access to said guns.  If that means temporarily banning them, so be it.  The problem though is, gun owners want an all-or-nothing solution.  Completely unwilling to compromise.  Every time long term or short term solutions are suggested, the absurd comparisons, absurd scenarios and lame excuses start.

[rr_dRock]

Wrong mass stabbing, you're talking about the one that was a terrorist attack performed by many masked paramilitary attackers.

The one you should be comparing to is the school mass stabbing, it's the one that's comparable, and guess what, unlike any of your school shootings, no one died.

There is no difference between them, only for your purposes. A mass stabbing is a mass stabbing. Does the slaughter of a village with guns not further your point of view? And I notice you didn't mention the Alberta stabbings... Is that because it also doesn't support your point of view?

I understand what your getting at. That knives kill less people. But look at Winnipeg's knife violence vs gun violence and you'll quickly find knives are used much more often. Which means more people are being hurt by them. School shootings aren't the only tragic deaths. All violent deaths are tragic.

Just because you choose to ignore it, does not make it any less relevant.

[+Raze Subscriber²]

Question to you Americans, why do you need weapons in your life?

 

For myself it isn't a question of need, I want a firearm to use for hunting and I do eat what I kill, shooting animals just for sport holds no interest for me.  I use a handgun at the firing range with friends for fun and practice.  One of the most important things about owning/using firearms is to be well trained and to maintain that through practice, etc.  I shoot clay pigeons for practice so when I go pheasant hunting I will more often than not bring my target down.  Do I need my firearms, no.  Can I live without them, yes.  Would I miss using them, yes.  Not every gun owner is an extremist, the majority are responsible, good people.  The ones hyped by the news media are an embarrassment and unfortunately get the most attention.

[Rippleman]

There is no difference between them, only for your purposes. A mass stabbing is a mass stabbing. Does the slaughter of a village with guns not further your point of view? And I notice you didn't mention the Alberta stabbings... Is that because it also doesn't support your point of view?

I understand what your getting at. That knives kill less people. But look at Winnipeg's knife violence vs gun violence and you'll quickly find knives are used much more often. Which means more people are being hurt by them. School shootings aren't the only tragic deaths. All violent deaths are tragic.

Just because you choose to ignore it, does not make it any less relevant.

 

Curious... quick easy question: if you were to be attacked, would you rather your attacker have a gun or a knife?

I want a firearm to use for hunting and I do eat what I kill,

 

Almost 100% of people are ok with that, its guns that are designed for hunting humans that people care about.

[Wyn6]

It wasn't designed for killing, but it does a damn good job of it, and seems to be involved with a laaaarge percentage.

 

Gun were designed for killing, yes. But then so was the sword, or arrows, or even knives. Are you an advocate of banning those things?

   How do you suggest we solve the mental health issues that are the real problem?

 

 

Oh, and there's a reason they don't allow inmates regular toothbrushes. They tend to whittle them down and stab each other.

And you just essentially repeated my point that it's ridiculous to stop someone from having something, because they MAY hurt someone with it..... But of course, you won't see that.

If we had actual sales data for swords, arrows, and knives (not cutlery) versus guns we'd probably see a huge disparity. I'm willing to bet that gun sales outweigh the others combined. I'm also gonna put forth that most current day assaults are committed using firearms and fists/feet not swords, and bows and arrows, or knives. So, banning or further restricting weapons that aren't even close in comparison in number used in assaults, makes no sense now. Unless, of course, you want to be preemptive.

 

- Solving the mental health issue is a biggie. Most people are either dismissive, in denial of, or fail to recognize the signs of mental illness. This also goes for the mentally ill person themselves. This is fairly hard to combat. There would need to be mass education on the subject, families would need to be willing to talk, admit, accept, and act.

 

A friend of mine, back in 2006 had claimed to hear voices in his head. Voices that told him to do bad things, like kill his family. At the time he had a wife, and two small children. Oh yeah. He also owned several firearms. At first his family was dismissive. When his wife became a bit more concerned she talked to his mother. His mother was also dismissive and in denial saying, oh... he's just stressed. After several violent outburst and an overall worsening of his condition, they all agreed to have him see a therapist. The week prior to his appointment, he walked into the bedroom where his 4 year old daughter lay sleeping, grabbed his shotgun, stepped into the closet, put the gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger.

 

Fortunately, he didn't harm the family, but he could have. When looking back, his wife said there were signs prior to his admission of the voices, but she failed to recognize them. There has to be a concerted effort to educate people and a willingness on their part to actually do something.

 

Oh. Inmates do get regular toothbrushes. Generic ones given to the indigent and more familiar brands that can be purchased at the commissary. Just an FYI. 

[DaveGreen93]

More people are killed by drunk drivers in the U.S. than by guns. Maybe we should leave our cars at home... :D

 

If you go out to get drunk, that's not a bad idea...

[xplatinum]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check

[Guest]

For myself it isn't a question of need, I want a firearm to use for hunting and I do eat what I kill, shooting animals just for sport holds no interest for me.  I use a handgun at the firing range with friends for fun and practice.  One of the most important things about owning/using firearms is to be well trained and to maintain that through practice, etc.  I shoot clay pigeons for practice so when I go pheasant hunting I will more often than not bring my target down.  Do I need my firearms, no.  Can I live without them, yes.  Would I miss using them, yes.  Not every gun owner is an extremist, the majority are responsible, good people.  The ones hyped by the news media are an embarrassment and unfortunately get the most attention.

 

How does what you do requires you to carry a weapon in public?

[Wyn6]

Question to you Americans, why do you need weapons in your life?

Culture. It's been ingrained for hundreds of years. It's a way of life, really. Funny thing is, many people never think twice about owning a gun, people who own guns, the thousands of gun stores on the corner, the hundreds of gun shows held each year, or the armed guards and police we see everyday. It's normal. That is until something makes us pay attention.  

 

The rash of mass shootings over the past however long, has made many people reevaluate that norm. The thing is, dozens of people are killed every single day in this country with a firearm and these incidents aren't given the same level of attention.

 

Just yesterday, a two year old girl was executed by a man who said he wanted her father to watch her die. A TWO YEAR OLD! What the hell?! Maybe, just maybe, if he didn't have a gun, someone could've stopped him. And, this happened in an inner city area where many people have and carry guns.

 

If I do a random news search on people killed with guns, I'll find several instances on any given day. But, people read or see the news and say, "Aww. That's sad." and they go on about their lives. Why? Because, it's normal.

[+Raze Subscriber²]

Curious... quick easy question: if you were to be attacked, would you rather your attacker have a gun or a knife?

 

Almost 100% of people are ok with that, its guns that are designed for hunting humans that people care about.

 

Come on, rippleman, any firearm can be used to kill anything, that is their purpose.  People use them for target practice, etc., but that is useful for keeping your skills at killing effective and accurate.  Now there are firearms specifically designed by the military for killing, but the public at large would find it very, very difficult to obtain them.  Not impossible, of course, but highly unlikely.

 

How does what you do requires you to carry a weapon in public?

 

There is no requirement to carry firearms in public. (If that is what you meant, sorry if I misunderstand your question.)  I do have to transport my weapons when hunting or going to target practice, but I follow the laws regarding handling and safekeeping my guns in my vehicle.

[trag3dy]

curious, currently, how do you determine who is a bad guy and who is not? If someone with a gun doesn't kill someone with a today, should one assume he wont tomorrow? Do bad guys kill people everyday of their life? When do they become a bad guy, is with their first kill?

 

Trying to point out that anyone at anytime can snap. We are human and fallible and subject to uncountable external stimuli such as stress, sickness, chemical imbalance, environment, need,  etc. All the killers (bad guys) were once regular guys just like you and me. Then at some point, do to any one of the stimuli i mentioned earlier, made them make new choices and those choice lead to killing. Happens to be the easiest and most impersonal way to kill some one is a gun.

 

Brilliant. Treat everyone as if they are guilty from the start. Absolutely brilliant.

 

I realize you are Canadian so you might not know this but here in the US we have this thing where people are treated as innocent until proven guilty.

 

With your line of thought literally anyone can flip a switch and go psycho at any time. Public transportation drivers? Yeah, better get rid of those. At any moment they could potentially kill dozens. Same goes for jet pilots, and we saw what those can do. You don't even need guns to kill a lot of people (timothy mcveigh did it with ordinary perfectly legal items), so more or less anyone is a threat.

 

Basically, every single person under the sun should be locked away in a padded room for their potential to harm another person. It's the only way we're safe.

 

I love this logic.

[rr_dRock]

If we had actual sales data for swords, arrows, and knives (not cutlery) versus guns we'd probably see a huge disparity. I'm willing to bet that gun sales outweigh the others combined. I'm also gonna put forth that most current day assaults are committed using firearms and fists/feet not swords, and bows and arrows, or knives. So, banning or further restricting weapons that aren't even close in comparison in number used in assaults, makes no sense now. Unless, of course, you want to be preemptive.

 

- Solving the mental health issue is a biggie. Most people are either dismissive, in denial of, or fail to recognize the signs of mental illness. This also goes for the mentally ill person themselves. This is fairly hard to combat. There would need to be mass education on the subject, families would need to be willing to talk, admit, accept, and act.

 

A friend of mine, back in 2006 had claimed to hear voices in his head. Voices that told him to do bad things, like kill his family. At the time he had a wife, and two small children. Oh yeah. He also owned several firearms. At first his family was dismissive. When his wife became a bit more concerned she talked to his mother. His mother was also dismissive and in denial saying, oh... he's just stressed. After several violent outburst and an overall worsening of his condition, they all agreed to have him see a therapist. The week prior to his appointment, he walked into the bedroom where his 4 year old daughter lay sleeping, grabbed his shotgun, stepped into the closet, put the gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger.

 

Fortunately, he didn't harm the family, but he could have. When looking back, his wife said there were signs prior to his admission of the voices, but she failed to recognize them. There has to be a concerted effort to educate people and a willingness on their part to actually do something.

 

Oh. Inmates do get regular toothbrushes. Generic ones given to the indigent and more familiar brands that can be purchased at the commissary. Just an FYI. 

 

 

Knives are the most weapon used in violent crimes in Canada (other than fists, which aren't classified as a weapon)

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010001/article/11146-eng.htm

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/140423/dq140423b-eng.htm

 

I totally agree. That is a sad reality for a lot of people. 

I've also had a close friend die due to improper handling. Mental health + proper training are two of the biggest things. It seems like schools are becoming more and more aware of mental health issues now, but it's still not proactive enough.

 

As far as I had seen, when working in the prisons, a lot of the toothbrushes were rather bendy, and not great for whittling down, especially in the youth centers. I suppose there's probably quite a number where they are too underfunded to buy good bendy toothbrushes, so as to avoid stabbings with them. Good catch.

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check

It's come down to bringing in Mother Jones? Yeeeep. I'm outta here.

 

 

 

Brilliant. Treat everyone as if they are guilty from the start. Absolutely brilliant.

 

I realize you are Canadian so you might not know this but here in the US we have this thing where people are treated as innocent until proven guilty.

 

I realize you're American so you might not know this, but it's not really helpful to your cause to insult someones nationality.

[Rippleman]

Brilliant. Treat everyone as if they are guilty from the start. Absolutely brilliant.

 

I realize you are Canadian so you might not know this but here in the US we have this thing where people are treated as innocent until proven guilty.

 

innocent until proven guilt is a myth. Society treats everyone as guilty.

 

1) Why does all stores have cashiers? Why not just leave your money at the till when you buy something? Are they assuming you are a guilty thief?

2) Why do banks have bank tellers that are bonded with no criminal history? Don't they trust you enough to withdraw only the money you have in your account? Are they assuming you are a guilty robber?

3) Why does the IRS do audits? Don't they trust you that you were truthful in your tax return? Are they assuming you are a tax cheat?

4) Why do they have cops that radar people on highways? Don't they trust you that you will obey speed limit? Are they assuming you are a guilty speeder?

5) Why do you get asked for ID at ANY place that requires it?  Don't they trust you that you are how you say you are? Are they assuming you are a guilty identity thief?

6) When apply for a loan, why does the loan officer ask you to verify your income? Don't they trust you that you make as much as you do? Are they assuming you are guilty of providing false financial information?

 

this list could go on forever.... innocent till proven guilty is a lie and is ONLY applicable in court.

[HawkMan]

There is no difference between them, only for your purposes. A mass stabbing is a mass stabbing. Does the slaughter of a village with guns not further your point of view? And I notice you didn't mention the Alberta stabbings... Is that because it also doesn't support your point of view?

I understand what your getting at. That knives kill less people. But look at Winnipeg's knife violence vs gun violence and you'll quickly find knives are used much more often. Which means more people are being hurt by them. School shootings aren't the only tragic deaths. All violent deaths are tragic.

Just because you choose to ignore it, does not make it any less relevant.

 

 

You don't see the difference between an organized terror attack with a whole group of trained military/paramilitary attackers and one or two mentally ill attackers ? a school?

 

Your comparison is valid when America has a mass shooting performed by a squad of former trained QC soldiers, and not one or two kids.

[rr_dRock]

innocent until proven guilt is a myth. Society treats everyone as guilty.

 

1) Why does all stores have cashiers? Why not just leave your money at the till when you buy something? Are they assuming you are thief?

2) Why do banks have bank tellers that are bonded with no criminal history? Don't they trust you enough to withdraw only the money you have in your account? Are they assuming you are a robber?

3) Why does the IRS do audits? Don't they trust you that you were truthful in your tax return? Are they assuming you are a tax cheat?

4) Why do they have cops that radar people on highways? Don't they trust you that you will obey speed limit? Are they assuming you are a speeder?

5) Why do you get asked for ID at ANY place that requires it?  Don't they trust you that you are how you say you are? Are they assuming you using stolen identity?

6) When apply for a loan, why does the loan officer ask you to verify your income? Don't they trust you that you make as much as you do? Are they assuming you are providing false finacial information?

 

this list could go on forever.... innocent till proven guilty is a lie.

 

The innocent until proven guilty only applies in a courtroom, not in life itself. People are inherently greedy and ######.

[HawkMan]

Come on, rippleman, any firearm can be used to kill anything, that is their purpose.  People use them for target practice, etc., but that is useful for keeping your skills at killing effective and accurate.  Now there are firearms specifically designed by the military for killing, but the public at large would find it very, very difficult to obtain them.  Not impossible, of course, but highly unlikely.

 

 

 

Those AR15s don't seem terribly hard to come by, unless you have the ridiculous long laundry lists of things needed to not be allowed to buy a firearm in America. Paranoid schizophrenic bipolar with ADHD aggression and a history of violence and abuse? Not a problem, but you can only buy two of these rifles.

[rr_dRock]

You don't see the difference between an organized terror attack with a whole group of trained military/paramilitary attackers and one or two mentally ill attackers ? a school?

 

Your comparison is valid when America has a mass shooting performed by a squad of former trained QC soldiers, and not one or two kids.

 

Okay. You just want to pretend that violence outside of schools doesn't matter, because it doesn't fit your agenda. And again, when presented with a valid alternative you ignore it, because you're incapable of seeing any other viewpoint. Who's the extremist again?

Anyway, this is waaaaayyyyy off topic.

 

 

Have a wonderful weekend everyone!

Those AR15s don't seem terribly hard to come by, unless you have the ridiculous long laundry lists of things needed to not be allowed to buy a firearm in America. Paranoid schizophrenic bipolar with ADHD aggression and a history of violence and abuse? Not a problem, but you can only buy two of these rifles.

 

Those aren't military weapons. Although god knows why anyone would need a hollow point when hunting (Hollow for targets mayyybbeeee? and self defence...)... Lol.

[trag3dy]

innocent until proven guilt is a myth. Society treats everyone as guilty.

 

1) Why does all stores have cashiers? Why not just leave your money at the till when you buy something? Are they assuming you are a guilty thief?

2) Why do banks have bank tellers that are bonded with no criminal history? Don't they trust you enough to withdraw only the money you have in your account? Are they assuming you are a guilty robber?

3) Why does the IRS do audits? Don't they trust you that you were truthful in your tax return? Are they assuming you are a tax cheat?

4) Why do they have cops that radar people on highways? Don't they trust you that you will obey speed limit? Are they assuming you are a guilty speeder?

5) Why do you get asked for ID at ANY place that requires it?  Don't they trust you that you are how you say you are? Are they assuming you are a guilty identity thief?

6) When apply for a loan, why does the loan officer ask you to verify your income? Don't they trust you that you make as much as you do? Are they assuming you are guilty of providing false financial information?

 

this list could go on forever.... innocent till proven guilty is a lie and is ONLY applicable in court.

 

Saying you don't trust people to be honest is not the same as saying you think all people who own guns are potential future murderers. It's hardly the same. At all. Your logic is still terrible.

 

And what's more why is it only gun owners that get this treatment? That part doesn't make any sense either.

[nekkidtruth]

Saying you don't trust people to be honest is not the same as saying you think all people who own guns are potential future murderers. It's hardly the same. At all. Your logic is still terrible.

 

I find his logic to be spot on actually.  Aside from the fact that you're pulling what he said out of context, if you can't trust people to be honest, how can you trust them to be honest about their mental health issues?  His logic works just fine.

[Rippleman]

Saying you don't trust people to be honest is not the same as saying you think all people who own guns are potential future murderers. It's hardly the same. At all. Your logic is still terrible.

 

Are you saying that all people who own guns are not potential future murderers? Really analyze that statement before you answer.

[trag3dy]

I find his logic to be spot on actually.  Aside from the fact that you're pulling what he said out of context, if you can't trust people to be honest, how can you trust them to be honest about their mental health issues?  His logic works just fine.

 

How am I pulling what he said out of context...his words..

 

curious, currently, how do you determine who is a bad guy and who is not? If someone with a gun doesn't kill someone with a today, should one assume he wont tomorrow? Do bad guys kill people everyday of their life? When do they become a bad guy, is with their first kill?

 

Trying to point out that anyone at anytime can snap. We are human and fallible and subject to uncountable external stimuli such as stress, sickness, chemical imbalance, environment, need,  etc. All the killers (bad guys) were once regular guys just like you and me. Then at some point, do to any one of the stimuli i mentioned earlier, made them make new choices and those choice lead to killing. Happens to be the easiest and most impersonal way to kill some one is a gun.

 

 

Are you saying that all people who own guns are not potential future murderers? Really analyze that statement before you answer.

 

Some people who own guns might commit a murder in the future.

 

All people who own guns might commit a murder in the future.

 

And then you realize that the amount of people who own guns and have not killed someone with a gun far outnumber those who do own guns and have killed someone with a gun.

 

Using your logic we assume everyone who owns a gun is going to kill someone at some point in their life with said gun. I really don't see it. I have a large family. We've had guns in the family from the start.  Not a single one has committed murder with or without a gun. Going by your logic one of us should have killed someone by this point.