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Obamas promise about more flexibility - correction


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#1 +Jack Unterweger

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 16:30

i need to correct myself, as i often claimed in diverse threads that obama promised putin more flexibility after the election.

however i have not been precise ennough there. it was obama telling this to medjedev not putin, however the former redirected this to the latter.




#2 Enron

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 16:34

Obama has provided lots of flexibility to Russia in general, but really what Obama has done is made himself and the US a non-factor in the Ukraine situation.



#3 OP +Jack Unterweger

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 16:39

Obama has provided lots of flexibility to Russia in general, but really what Obama has done is made himself and the US a non-factor in the Ukraine situation.

 

shocking thing is, russia now looks much stronger than the us.... shooting down a passenger jet aircraft? no problem! invade ukraine? no problem! putin has just recently hold a speech where he reminded the world that russia is still a strong nuklear power. i wonder what's coming up next?



#4 Earthworm_Jim

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 16:52

Obama has provided lots of flexibility to Russia in general, but really what Obama has done is made himself and the US a non-factor in the Ukraine situation.


US being non factor???    HA.    USA is the number one factor this whole mess started.



#5 OP +Jack Unterweger

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 16:55

and he goes there openly claims "we have no strategy yet" for fighting isis, and i bet he also has no clue what he should do against russia, while in europe it's consensus that all those "harsh" economical sanctions won't stop putin because he has a brain too and has included these sanctions already in his gain/lose calculations.

 

i better hope obama is just an actor now and bluffs putin a bit because if not things look very very very bad. very bad.



#6 Enron

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 16:57

and he goes there openly claims "we have no strategy yet" for fighting isis, and i bet he also has no clue what he should do against russia, while in europe it's consensus that all those "harsh" economical sanctions won't stop putin because he has a brain too and has included these sanctions already in his gain/lose calculations.

 

i better hope obama is just an actor now and bluffs putin a bit because if not things look very very very bad. very bad.

 

Unfortunately, Obama really is clueless.



#7 OP +Jack Unterweger

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 17:02

Unfortunately, Obama really is clueless.

 

incredible, just incredible.... if he personally is clueless, ok but he has the best military and probably another 100s or so people willing to give him advice, why not collecting it, make option 1, 2, 3 ,4 etc. and pick one.... no action at all is the worst case! he could do that if he was leader in a small european country where basically you only execute what european parliament makes into law, but the united states of america? i am ashamed :(

 

and now please don't say me obama is not methodically ennough to do this ...



#8 Enron

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 17:06

incredible, just incredible.... if he personally is clueless, ok but he has the best military and probably another 100s or so people willing to give him advice, why not collecting it, make option 1, 2, 3 ,4 etc. and pick one.... no action at all is the worst case! he could do that if he was leader in a small european country where basically you only execute what european parliament makes into law, but the united states of america? i am ashamed :(

 

and now please don't say me obama is not methodically ennough to do this ...

 

You forget that Obama is one of those personalities that think they know what is best for everyone, and no amount of advice or in-your-face feedback is going to change his opinion. This is the same type of thinking in Steve Sinofsky that brought us Windows 8.

 

Unfortunately in politics and war, it's not as easy as rolling out a new version of software.



#9 hagjohn

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 17:07

Frankly, for the US, there are no good options when dealing with both these situations. We have spent over a trillion dollars (not to mention our most important asset, our service members) in Iraq and Afghanistan with basically nothing to show for it. That area of the world is never going to be a friend of the US.



#10 OP +Jack Unterweger

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 17:13

Frankly, for the US, there are no good options when dealing with both these situations. We have spent over a trillion dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan with basically nothing to show for it. That area of the world is never going to be a friend of the US.

 

by mid 2000s and in iraqs case till 2007 you made good progress and were on the right path. this could have gone out differently if troops stayed long term committed and more success would maybe also have convinced other european allies.

the good thing is only that with isis rise - and again they are pros not noobs - that sooner or later some country has to clean that mess out again and i know europeans will point on the us once more and honestly only the united states has the capability to do so.


You forget that Obama is one of those personalities that think they know what is best for everyone, and no amount of advice or in-your-face feedback is going to change his opinion. This is the same type of thinking in Steve Sinofsky that brought us Windows 8.

 

Unfortunately in politics and war, it's not as easy as rolling out a new version of software.

 

obama should just have stayed in the classroom then. :(



#11 hagjohn

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 17:16

by mid 2000s and in iraqs case till 2007 you made good progress and were on the right path. this could have gone out differently if troops stayed long term committed and more success would maybe also have convinced other european allies.

 

 

You can thank Bush for that.



#12 -Razorfold

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 17:17

and he goes there openly claims "we have no strategy yet" for fighting isis, and i bet he also has no clue what he should do against russia, while in europe it's consensus that all those "harsh" economical sanctions won't stop putin because he has a brain too and has included these sanctions already in his gain/lose calculations.


What do you suggest doing against ISIS?

Bombing them back to the dawn of the universe? Oh wait that'll just get rid of the current group. In a couple of years another one will form that's either just as bad or worse. Then what do you do then? Bomb them? And so on? Not like that's difficult, we have an entire carrier battle group that's in the middle east and can easily bomb Iraq, Syria and various other countries and wipe them of the face of the earth. But that will only be a short term solution and they will, likely, use the bombings to their advantage.

Now I will agree that as a short term measure something needs to be done about ISIS, things like bombing them (but in a strategic way, not just carpet bomb cities), destroying their bases but there also needs to be a significant long term plan in place to make sure groups like them can never exist again. Just keeping troops in Iraq/Syria will not help that long term plan at all, instead it usually has the opposite effect of making people hate their "occupiers" even more. The other problem is the collateral damage from bombing; everytime an innocent person dies because of a drone or a bomb that the US dropped there is going to be a family member who now starts to hate the US (or the west) and they become easily swayed by terrorist propaganda and so the cycle repeats itself again and again.

The problem with groups like ISIS is that their goal is terror. They get what they want by spreading terror and so defeating what is essentially a philosophy is extremely difficult. This isn't some sort of conventional army that you can bomb and conquer. The US (and the rest of the world) has to destroy the ideology that drives their members.

Really the ONLY tool we have to fight terror is education, and we need significantly greater strides in that area.

#13 OP +Jack Unterweger

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 17:25

What do you suggest doing against ISIS?
 

 

combat boots on the ground i'd suggest. the longer we wait the bigger isis will grow. they are in war since quite some time now and they get better with strategy, planning, propaganda, etc. also they have many sleepers placed all over europe, even in the us/uk and once activated they will travel down to join them to fight. we don't know the numbers probably never will, but if i had to do a guess, i'd say at least 50k if not 100k. if there was just a law in place forbidding them to travel out and back to europe, so far i have heard nothing of it and this is the big scandal for me.



#14 Enron

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 17:26

Really the ONLY tool we have to fight terror is education, and we need significantly greater strides in that area.

 

Unfortunately, ISIS already has a lot of people with university degrees. They're using their education to be even deadlier.

 

ISIS must be destroyed.



#15 DocM

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 17:28

With areas like this which can interrupt or paralyze international trade in critical goods, if you can't make friends cause fear.

Back in the days of the Lebanon civil war major power embassy officers etc. were often kidnapped and ransomed or killed by Shi'a militias.

Big problem for everyone but the Soviets.

First time their people were taken the KGB kidnapped a relative of the Shi'a militia leader, cut off his genitals and delivered the boxed parts to him with a note saying other relatives body parts would follow.

Their people were released.