bigmehdi Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Hi,I have a lossless music collection on a 1 Tb hard drive. I made a copy of everything to an external hard drive of 1 Tb too. But the free available space is not the same (1 gb of difference !) .I know that with my current pc formatting the external hard drive, and re-copying everything again would solve the issue. I've done this once. But sometimes I like to update my collection on the external drive (from an other pc) , and when I resynch again to replicate the changes on my local hard drive, a difference of 1 gb for the free space comes back. I want to understand where the difference of 1 Gb comes from. I tried to delete/disable any potential "restore point" (as this could impact the "System Volume Information" folder) , but this makes no difference. Also I checked for any hidden files, found nothing. Virus scanning, nothing.If this could help I've got some info using ms-dos below. G: is the local drive, J: is an external one. C:\Windows\system32>fsutil fsinfo ntfsinfo j: NTFS Volume Serial Number : 0x8c845d4b845d38c2 Version : 3.1 Number Sectors : 0x00000000746f5fff Total Clusters : 0x000000000e8debff Free Clusters : 0x000000000169588b Total Reserved : 0x0000000000049640 Bytes Per Sector : 512 Bytes Per Physical Sector : <Not Supported> Bytes Per Cluster : 4096 Bytes Per FileRecord Segment : 1024 Clusters Per FileRecord Segment : 0 Mft Valid Data Length : 0x0000000003400000 Mft Start Lcn : 0x00000000000c0000 Mft2 Start Lcn : 0x0000000000000002 Mft Zone Start : 0x00000000000c3400 Mft Zone End : 0x00000000000cc820 RM Identifier: D50C9E71-D468-11E3-8F3F-001D7D06BBDC C:\Windows\system32>fsutil fsinfo ntfsinfo g: NTFS Volume Serial Number : 0x3eee02c4ee027485 Version : 3.1 Number Sectors : 0x00000000747057ff Total Clusters : 0x000000000e8e0aff Free Clusters : 0x0000000001695b52 Total Reserved : 0x00000000000003f0 Bytes Per Sector : 512 Bytes Per Physical Sector : 512 Bytes Per Cluster : 4096 Bytes Per FileRecord Segment : 1024 Clusters Per FileRecord Segment : 0 Mft Valid Data Length : 0x0000000003c00000 Mft Start Lcn : 0x00000000000c0000 Mft2 Start Lcn : 0x0000000000000002 Mft Zone Start : 0x00000000000c3c00 Mft Zone End : 0x00000000000cc820 RM Identifier: 8D498DA5-4CED-11E2-BDC3-001D7D06BBDC Any suggestion/explanation ?Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BudMan MVC Posted September 30, 2014 MVC Share Posted September 30, 2014 I would assume its the Reserved Space that your seeing the difference in By default NTFS reserves zone, 12.5% of volume size for MFT and does not allow writing there any user's data, which lets MFT to grow. However, when, for example, a lot of files are placed to the drive, MFT can grow beyond the reserved zone and becomes fragmented. If your drive becomes full that can shrink below that number original reserved number if not being used - like lots of BIG files. Did your original disk become full at some point? If doing the math right Total Reserved : 0x0000000000049640 = 300608 x 4096 = 1,231,290,368 Bytes The other disk is only 1008 x 4096 = 4,128,768 If you fill up the space, then the MFT should shrink.. Couple different ways to do that. But not sure why you would be worried about it?? Its 1GB out of 1TB ;) edit: If you run defrag in cmd prompt you can get a report defrag d: -A -V Master File Table (MFT): MFT size = 117.00 MB MFT record count = 119807 MFT usage = 100% Total MFT fragments = 2 So what does it show for your MFT for your 2 drives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmehdi Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 hi, The other disk is only 1008 x 4096 = 4,128,768 Well, I don't understand well this number. But not sure why you would be worried about it?? Its 1GB out of 1TB ;) Yes 1 Gb from 1Tb is not big, but at least I'm reassured than nothing wrong is happening. According to your comments, I guess the difference is because of fragmentation ?There was a time, 1 Gb meant a lot for me (especially with a hard drive of 8 gb :) ). : If you run defrag in cmd prompt you can get a report Well, the reported free space is not the same on explorer and with the dos command. On explorer external hard drive J: indicate 89.1 gb of free space, while with dos command I get 90.33 gb Here is the full dos report: C:\Windows\system32>defrag g: -A -V Microsoft Disk Defragmenter Copyright (c) 2007 Microsoft Corp. Invoking analysis on Musik (G:)... The operation completed successfully. Post Defragmentation Report: Volume Information: Volume size = 931,50 GB Cluster size = 4 KB Used space = 841,17 GB Free space = 90,33 GB Fragmentation: Total fragmented space = 1% Average fragments per file = 2,32 Movable files and folders = 53483 Unmovable files and folders = 10 Files: Fragmented files = 523 Total file fragments = 62732 Folders: Total folders = 4622 Fragmented folders = 409 Total folder fragments = 702 Free space: Free space count = 1748 Average free space size = 52,83 MB Largest free space size = 79,61 GB Master File Table (MFT): MFT size = 60,00 MB MFT record count = 61439 MFT usage = 100% Total MFT fragments = 1 Note: File fragments larger than 64MB are not included in the fragmentation statistics. You do not need to defragment this volume. C:\Windows\system32>defrag j: -A -V Microsoft Disk Defragmenter Copyright (c) 2007 Microsoft Corp. Invoking analysis on Musik (J:)... The operation completed successfully. Post Defragmentation Report: Volume Information: Volume size = 931,47 GB Cluster size = 4 KB Used space = 841,14 GB Free space = 90,33 GB Fragmentation: Total fragmented space = 0% Average fragments per file = 1,00 Movable files and folders = 52516 Unmovable files and folders = 10 Files: Fragmented files = 14 Total file fragments = 25 Folders: Total folders = 4619 Fragmented folders = 859 Total folder fragments = 1255 Free space: Free space count = 59 Average free space size = 1,52 GB Largest free space size = 69,66 GB Master File Table (MFT): MFT size = 52,00 MB MFT record count = 53247 MFT usage = 100% Total MFT fragments = 3 Note: File fragments larger than 64MB are not included in the fragmentation statistics. You do not need to defragment this volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BudMan MVC Posted September 30, 2014 MVC Share Posted September 30, 2014 Free space = 90,33 GB That looks the same on both.. You also have more files on one than the other Movable files and folders = 52516 Movable files and folders = 53483 "The other disk is only 1008 x 4096 = 4,128,768" Convert the hex number.. Total Reserved : 0x00000000000003f0 So 3F0 = (3 * 16^2) + (15 (F) * 16^1) + (0 * 16^0) 3 x 16^2 = 3 x 256 = 768 15 x 16^1 = 15 * 16 = 240 0 x 16^1 = 0 x 1 = 0 Add them up, then x 4096 is the Bytes per cluster Its not fragmentation - it is the reserved space for the MFT.. If you look at your MFT size they are different - which makes sense with different files. But that is not really showing you the reserved space.. Let me see if I can dig up a easy way to show that. Other than doing the math on your fsutil output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmehdi Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 You also have more files on one than the other Movable files and folders = 52516 Movable files and folders = 53483 But when I select all files/folder at the root, and then look at properties I get same number of file and folders from explorer i.e: 47 436 files, 4 605 folders for both hard drive . Only the hidden system folder are not selected ( System Volume Information & recycle bin). Also I synched both hard drive using a comparison tool "beyond compare", and off course the comparison indicate no differences in files/ folders. .. If you look at your MFT size they are different - which makes sense with different files But again files are the same, and using a comparison tool I can't find a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BudMan MVC Posted September 30, 2014 MVC Share Posted September 30, 2014 well why does the defrag report show differences in number of files? Movable files and folders = 52516 Movable files and folders = 53483 And its just not a couple - its almost 1k While I can understand the curiosity - I do!! Your talking 1GB out of a TB disk.. that is like .1% You have a difference in the reserved space clearly from your fsutil between disks. But it seems high to me - how did you format this disk? What OS are you using? Can you output C:\>fsutil behavior query mftzone MftZone = 0 So if I look at this system at work C:\>fsutil fsinfo ntfsinfo c: NTFS Volume Serial Number : 0x411dc95f01904c54 Version : 3.1 Number Sectors : 0x00000000253fda70 Total Clusters : 0x0000000004a7fb4e Free Clusters : 0x00000000032c27f9 Total Reserved : 0x0000000000000780 Bytes Per Sector : 512 Bytes Per Cluster : 4096 Bytes Per FileRecord Segment : 1024 Clusters Per FileRecord Segment : 0 Mft Valid Data Length : 0x000000000d5c0000 Mft Start Lcn : 0x0000000000000004 Mft2 Start Lcn : 0x0000000002448cd8 Mft Zone Start : 0x0000000001067e40 Mft Zone End : 0x00000000010683a0 RM Identifier: 61A8CFCA-D4F7-11E2-9177-806E6F6E6963 ---- Total Reserved : 0x0000000000000780 30720 x 4096 = 125,829,120 If I recall in windows 7 mftzone of 0 = 200MB.. So I might not recalling what that reserved space is reporting on?? But odd how your saying your seeing 1GB difference and that sure right in the ball park.. Can you run this command for your disks C:\>fsutil volume diskfree c: Total # of free bytes : 217998594048 Total # of bytes : 319970140160 Total # of avail free bytes : 217998594048 That reserved space is space for the ntfs meta data, this can contain lots of different stuff I would be most interested in your log file size.. run a chkdsk on the disks and you should get the log file size Windows has checked the file system and found no problems. 312470840 KB total disk space. 99675336 KB in 175463 files. 87688 KB in 27449 indexes. 0 KB in bad sectors. 331768 KB in use by the system. 65536 KB occupied by the log file. 212376048 KB available on disk. 4096 bytes in each allocation unit. 78117710 total allocation units on disk. 53094012 allocation units available on disk. What is the reports for your 2 disks from chkdsk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmehdi Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 how did you format this disk? What OS are you using? Actually I use two Pc, I tried to simplify thing by avoiding unecessary details. Let's call one pc A, and the other B. I move sometimes from a town to an other , and make change to the musical collection. So the portable hard drive, is the way for me to resynch again files/folder changes, when moving between locations. The problem occured in the pc B, I made a little change in local drive, and then free available space was abruptly decreased of 1 gb. Afer resynching with the external hard drive, it was obvious that 1 gb was missing. I think I reformatted my external drive there, and then after copying everything I got this time the same free space size (i.e 1 gb lacking for the free space). It's once I got back to pc A, and then resynched using the tool "beyond compare", that I got to admit that 1 gb mysteriously disappeared from my external drive. I thought it could be a very hard to detect rootkit, that's why I wanted to inspect this. Both pc are under win 7 , 64 bits. Formatting done by right clicking, and default options. Currently I use the pc I called A. Can you outputC:\>fsutil behavior query mftzone MftZone = 0 I get same output, when I type this i.e MftZone = 0. Can you run this command for your disks C:\>fsutil volume diskfree c: well I get: C:\Windows\system32>fsutil volume diskfree g: Total # of free bytes : 96992632832 Total # of bytes : 1000202039296 Total # of avail free bytes : 96992632832 C:\Windows\system32>fsutil volume diskfree j: Total # of free bytes : 95762558976 Total # of bytes : 1000169533440 Total # of avail free bytes : 95762558976 There's a small size difference between hard drives if I compare "total of bytes", but it's around 31 Mb ( far from 1 Gb). What is the reports for your 2 disks from chkdsk? Local drive G: C:\Windows\system32>chkdsk g: The type of the file system is NTFS. Volume label is Musik. WARNING! F parameter not specified. Running CHKDSK in read-only mode. CHKDSK is verifying files (stage 1 of 3)... 61440 file records processed. File verification completed. 6813 large file records processed. 0 bad file records processed. 0 EA records processed. 0 reparse records processed. CHKDSK is verifying indexes (stage 2 of 3)... 70680 index entries processed. Index verification completed. 0 unindexed files scanned. 0 unindexed files recovered. CHKDSK is verifying security descriptors (stage 3 of 3)... 61440 file SDs/SIDs processed. Security descriptor verification completed. 4621 data files processed. CHKDSK is verifying Usn Journal... 37710080 USN bytes processed. Usn Journal verification completed. Windows has checked the file system and found no problems. 976759807 KB total disk space. 884887796 KB in 47448 files. 21928 KB in 4622 indexes. 0 KB in bad sectors. 194591 KB in use by the system. 65536 KB occupied by the log file. 91655492 KB available on disk. 4096 bytes in each allocation unit. 244189951 total allocation units on disk. 22913873 allocation units available on disk. External drive J: C:\Windows\system32>chkdsk j: The type of the file system is NTFS. Volume label is Musik. WARNING! F parameter not specified. Running CHKDSK in read-only mode. CHKDSK is verifying files (stage 1 of 3)... 53248 file records processed. File verification completed. 0 large file records processed. 0 bad file records processed. 0 EA records processed. 0 reparse records processed. CHKDSK is verifying indexes (stage 2 of 3)... 62482 index entries processed. Index verification completed. 0 unindexed files scanned. 0 unindexed files recovered. CHKDSK is verifying security descriptors (stage 3 of 3)... 53248 file SDs/SIDs processed. Security descriptor verification completed. 4618 data files processed. CHKDSK is verifying Usn Journal... 17853760 USN bytes processed. Usn Journal verification completed. Windows has checked the file system and found no problems. 976728063 KB total disk space. 882274612 KB in 47444 files. 20616 KB in 4619 indexes. 0 KB in bad sectors. 166935 KB in use by the system. 65536 KB occupied by the log file. 94265900 KB available on disk. 4096 bytes in each allocation unit. 244182015 total allocation units on disk. 23566475 allocation units available on disk. Hence same log size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BudMan MVC Posted October 1, 2014 MVC Share Posted October 1, 2014 clearly these have different number of files CHKDSK is verifying files (stage 1 of 3)... 53248 file records processed. CHKDSK is verifying files (stage 1 of 3)... 61440 file records processed. 884887796 KB in 47448 files. 882274612 KB in 47444 files. 194591 KB in use by the system. 166935 KB in use by the system. These disks are showing all kinds of differences.. if you do the math here 884887796 KB in 47448 files. 882274612 KB in 47444 files. You have 2,613,184 KB more stored on 1 disk than another.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmehdi Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 clearly these have different number of files But when I use a comparison tool like "beyond compare", it detects nothing. Just tried the freeware "freefilesync" to perform a comparison, and no difference too. Also I tried to list all hidden files, and nothing significant found. External drive J: C:\Windows\system32>dir /s j: /A:H Volume in drive J is Musik Volume Serial Number is 845D-38C2 Directory of J:\ 10/09/2014 23:40 <DIR> $RECYCLE.BIN 30/09/2014 17:54 <DIR> System Volume Information 0 File(s) 0 bytes Directory of J:\$RECYCLE.BIN 10/09/2014 23:40 <DIR> . 10/09/2014 23:40 <DIR> .. 10/09/2014 23:40 <DIR> S-1-5-21-2840249066-1808354765-502258188-100 1 0 File(s) 0 bytes Directory of J:\$RECYCLE.BIN\S-1-5-21-2840249066-1808354765-502258188-1001 10/09/2014 23:40 <DIR> . 10/09/2014 23:40 <DIR> .. 10/09/2014 23:40 129 desktop.ini 1 File(s) 129 bytes Total Files Listed: 1 File(s) 129 bytes 7 Dir(s) 95 762 558 976 bytes free Local drive G: C:\Windows\system32>dir /s g: /A:H Volume in drive G is Musik Volume Serial Number is EE02-7485 Directory of G:\ 11/01/2013 22:08 <DIR> $RECYCLE.BIN 30/09/2014 17:29 <DIR> System Volume Information 0 File(s) 0 bytes Directory of G:\$RECYCLE.BIN 11/01/2013 22:08 <DIR> . 11/01/2013 22:08 <DIR> .. 10/01/2013 04:02 <DIR> S-1-5-21-1361396589-2356774225-1261531009-10 01 04/01/2013 00:33 <DIR> S-1-5-21-1361396589-2356774225-1261531009-10 03 10/01/2013 19:37 <DIR> S-1-5-21-25329115-1288955257-3199750000-1001 29/09/2014 15:54 <DIR> S-1-5-21-2840249066-1808354765-502258188-100 1 0 File(s) 0 bytes Directory of G:\$RECYCLE.BIN\S-1-5-21-1361396589-2356774225-1261531009-1001 10/01/2013 04:02 <DIR> . 10/01/2013 04:02 <DIR> .. 24/12/2012 00:04 129 desktop.ini 1 File(s) 129 bytes Directory of G:\$RECYCLE.BIN\S-1-5-21-1361396589-2356774225-1261531009-1003 04/01/2013 00:33 <DIR> . 04/01/2013 00:33 <DIR> .. 04/01/2013 00:33 129 desktop.ini 1 File(s) 129 bytes Directory of G:\$RECYCLE.BIN\S-1-5-21-25329115-1288955257-3199750000-1001 10/01/2013 19:37 <DIR> . 10/01/2013 19:37 <DIR> .. 10/01/2013 19:37 129 desktop.ini 1 File(s) 129 bytes Directory of G:\$RECYCLE.BIN\S-1-5-21-2840249066-1808354765-502258188-1001 29/09/2014 15:54 <DIR> . 29/09/2014 15:54 <DIR> .. 11/01/2013 22:08 129 desktop.ini 1 File(s) 129 bytes Total Files Listed: 4 File(s) 516 bytes 16 Dir(s) 96 992 628 736 bytes free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmehdi Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 If I admit there's a difference, why the comparison tools can't find anything ? There"s something suspiscious. I wish I could find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BudMan MVC Posted October 1, 2014 MVC Share Posted October 1, 2014 well if you have stuff in the recycle bin.. Those could be quite large example 10/01/2013 04:02 <DIR> S-1-5-21-1361396589-2356774225-1261531009-1001 04/01/2013 00:33 <DIR> S-1-5-21-1361396589-2356774225-1261531009-1003 10/01/2013 19:37 <DIR> S-1-5-21-25329115-1288955257-3199750000-1001 29/09/2014 15:54 <DIR> S-1-5-21-2840249066-1808354765-502258188-1001 So those 1001, 1003 are the RID of the user accounts that owns those recycled files. You can go in via cmd line and clear those for sure - or look in them. Your command is only showing hidden - but the files in the bin might not have H attribute set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmehdi Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 well if you have stuff in the recycle bin.. Those could be quite large Well, I can force a permanent delete of the hidden system Recycle folder, and this doesn't help me to recover the missing Gb. This folder, is automatically re-created , so I don't think it's a problem. Sorry, can't see the pic you posted. Otherwise do you think that a malware/rootkit could hide files from explorer ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BudMan MVC Posted October 2, 2014 MVC Share Posted October 2, 2014 1GB malware/rootkit - yeah I don't think so.. I just don't understand why your so worried about 1GB.. Clearly your disk is showing different sizes and different number of files.. If your worried about root kit on it, then wipe it and copy your files over again. Yeah not seeing the image either - even though I saw it when I posted it.. They are having problems with images that is clear.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmehdi Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 Ok, you are right , this doesn't look like a big issue. Thanks for trying anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BudMan MVC Posted October 4, 2014 MVC Share Posted October 4, 2014 You notice the huge difference in fragmentation.. That could account for quite a bit of space actually.. Try defrag Files: Fragmented files = 523 Total file fragments = 62732 Files: Fragmented files = 14 Total file fragments = 25 Keep in mind these drives are not the same out of the gate Number Sectors : 0x00000000746f5fff = 1953456127 Total Clusters : 0x000000000e8debff Number Sectors : 0x00000000747057ff = 1953519615 Total Clusters : 0x000000000e8e0aff If you look at free clusters 23681163 - 23681874 = 711 There is so many things different with this disk, trying to figure out where 1 GB is crazy ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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