uk School marked down by Ofsted for being 'too white'

[Stealthy_Singh]

 

 

The issue isn't the number of minority students but the lack of first-hand exposure to them, something that can be addressed via numerous methods (listed earlier).

 

To be fair that's not an issue in the report either.

 

The idea that pupils can't find out about other cultures without meeting them is absurd. They can be taught, and they should be as it will equip them for a globalised future not just multicultural here. 

[theyarecomingforyou]

To be fair that's not an issue in the report either.

 

The idea that pupils can't find out about other cultures without meeting them is absurd. They can be taught, and they should be as it will equip them for a globalised future not just multicultural here. 

I'm just going by the article, which stated that the school lacked "first-hand experience of the diverse make up of modern British society". I would imagine that first-hand experience is much more influential than watching a DVD or reading a textbook about it, though obviously the decision should be evidence based (if the same result can be achieved without first-hand experience then so be it). Don't forget that this is the criteria for the 'outstanding' rating, not the 'good' or 'requires improvement' rating. A school should have to work hard to achieve such a rating and in this case the school was found to have fallen short.

[compl3x]

I'm just going by the article, which stated that the school lacked "first-hand experience of the diverse make up of modern British society". I would imagine that first-hand experience is much more influential than watching a DVD or reading a textbook about it, though obviously the decision should be evidence based (if the same result can be achieved without first-hand experience then so be it). 

 

 

But how can the school achieve the first hand experience with diversity if they lack diversity? Wouldn't that be like failing a boys'  school for a lack of gender interaction? 

 

?It all sounds like a rather ham-fisted approach to teaching tolerance. Instead of objectively teaching kids about cultural differences and diversity they just force feed them a bunch of platitudes about multiculturalism. To this day, it is still fresh in my mind how teachers and administrators were always blabbering on about multiculturalism while turning a blind-eye to a lot of the ethnic hatred and violence which occurred in the schools I attended. Much of it encouraged by the adults in the kids' lives (parents, uncles, grandparents etc.)

[Stealthy_Singh]

I'm just going by the article, which stated that the school lacked "first-hand experience of the diverse make up of modern British society". I would imagine that first-hand experience is much more influential than watching a DVD or reading a textbook about it, though obviously the decision should be evidence based (if the same result can be achieved without first-hand experience then so be it). Don't forget that this is the criteria for the 'outstanding' rating, not the 'good' or 'requires improvement' rating. A school should have to work hard to achieve such a rating and in this case the school was found to have fallen short.

 

Are you based in the UK? If so you most likely would have learnt about the Victorians. Are you telling me that you learned nothing by the fact that you didn't meet any? Evidence aside you've got to look at what is practical. I went to an inner city school with what I thought was a good ethnic mix. But looking back I never anyone from the Arab states, Iran,Africa or most the east Asian countries and many more places. Did I lose out? No. The schools are there to teach and many schools teach about other cultures. Now weather there is ethnic hate or not in my opinion is not down to the schools alone, it's what the kids are taught at home. But we are getting down a different road here and a bit off topic.

 

Again the report did not make any value judgement about the diversity make up of the school whatsoever. So the point is moot in this situation. With regards to teaching about other cultures aside from potentially increasing social cohesion in a multicultural society it's also self serving for those who learn if they are going to be successful in more globalised world.

[theyarecomingforyou]

But how can the school achieve the first hand experience with diversity if they lack diversity?

I've answered that numerous times already and am not going to bother repeating myself any further.  :sleep:

 

Wouldn't that be like failing a boys'  school for a lack of gender interaction?

Firstly, there is no talk of 'failing' here; we're talking about a school not achieving the 'outstanding' certification. Secondly, as long as such a school ensures students can interact with other genders first-hand then it wouldn't be marked down. However, I would argue that gender segregation is outdated and should not be tolerated.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Are you based in the UK? If so you most likely would have learnt about the Victorians. Are you telling me that you learned nothing by the fact that you didn't meet any?

What an asinine remark. As I said, first-hand experience is preferable to that of other forms of learning and is perfectly attainable. Even if it isn't, that just means a school won't be classed as 'outstanding' - hardly a serious problem. The Ofsted report merely pointed out a shortcoming of the school. The school wasn't marked down for a lack of non-white students but for not doing enough to ensure first-hand access to different cultures.

 

From the report:

 

"The large majority of pupils are white British. Very few are from other ethnic groups, and currently no pupils speak English as an additional language.

 

"The school needs to extend pupils' understanding of the cultural diversity of modern British Society by creating opportunities for them to have first-hand interaction with their counterparts from different backgrounds beyond the immediate vicinity."

 

I see nothing objectionable in that assessment.

[compl3x]

I've answered that numerous times already and am not going to bother repeating myself any further.  :sleep:

 

 

 

Sorry, I hate going through these topics reading everyone's bickering and unnecessarily long replies. You could have linked me directly to your post explaining why a school is being judge on an irrelevant criteria.

 

I don't know how you could practically create situations where you would expose kids to different cultures for enough time to have any useful effect. Taking them down to Chinatown or giving them some African cuisine probably wouldn't do it.

[FloatingFatMan]

I don't know how you could practically create situations where you would expose kids to different cultures for enough time to have any useful effect. Taking them down to Chinatown or giving them some African cuisine probably wouldn't do it.

 

It wouldn't even come close to doing it, which is why theyarecomingforyou is blowing smoke out of his rear.  Not living in the UK, he doesn't have a clue how things work here so he tries to apply HIS society, to ours.  That won't work.

[theyarecomingforyou]

It wouldn't even come close to doing it, which is why theyarecomingforyou is blowing smoke out of his rear.  Not living in the UK, he doesn't have a clue how things work here so he tries to apply HIS society, to ours.  That won't work.

I do live in the UK.  :huh:

 

I don't know how you could practically create situations where you would expose kids to different cultures for enough time to have any useful effect. Taking them down to Chinatown or giving them some African cuisine probably wouldn't do it.

There is no stipulation as to how much time is required, just that students are given first-hand experience of other cultures. One obvious solution would be to Skype chat with children from other schools, something that would not carry any financial burden and which could be done throughout the school year rather than just as a one-off event.

[FloatingFatMan]

I do live in the UK.  :huh:

Sorry, I thought you were in Norway for some reason...

 

There is no stipulation as to how much time is required, just that students are given first-hand experience of other cultures. One obvious solution would be to Skype chat with children from other schools, something that would not carry any financial burden and which could be done throughout the school year rather than just as a one-off event.

Riiiight... A Skype chat, with complete strangers, during which they will learn NOTHING of any consequence, and probably not even talk much without teacher prompting.

 

The ONLY way for kids to learn other cultures as you describe, is for them to be spending lots and lots of time with them, which means having minorities in school, which isn't possible in this scenario.

 

Therefore, school cannot comply with Ofsted requirements.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Riiiight... A Skype chat, with complete strangers, during which they will learn NOTHING of any consequence, and probably not even talk much without teacher prompting.

 

The ONLY way for kids to learn other cultures as you describe, is for them to be spending lots and lots of time with them, which means having minorities in school, which isn't possible in this scenario.

 

Therefore, school cannot comply with Ofsted requirements.

The school believes otherwise and is actively working to comply with Ofsted's recommendations, as the article points out. The issue isn't how it's done but just that it is done. You've taken a perfectly reasonable recommendation and twisted it to be an attack on the school for not having enough non-white students, which it isn't. You've come up with excuse after excuse why it can't be done and criticised all those who point out how easy it would be. You still haven't explained why a student exchange programme couldn't work, as schools in the UK have been doing that for decades - heck, my Dad went to Germany on a student exchange when he was at school.

 

As I said earlier, even if the school can't meet the recommendations?which seems unlikely?all that would mean is that at worst it can't achieve the 'outstanding' rating, which is only fair if the school is failing to adequately teach about cultural diversity. Not that it matters, as the school is actively working to comply with the recommendations.

[compl3x]

 

There is no stipulation as to how much time is required, just that students are given first-hand experience of other cultures. One obvious solution would be to Skype chat with children from other schools, something that would not carry any financial burden and which could be done throughout the school year rather than just as a one-off event.

 

Which seems more like tokenism. There is no specifics on how much should be done, or if any other methods besides first-hand experience will be effective, just that they should try something. I guess even if it is entirely ineffective it can give everyone that warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Which seems more like tokenism. There is no specifics on how much should be done, or if any other methods besides first-hand experience will be effective, just that they should try something. I guess even if it is entirely ineffective it can give everyone that warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

You've misconstrued my point. Obviously Ofsted will determine whether such teaching methods are effective but there is no stipulation as to how the subject is taught, aside from it requiring first-hand experience. Nobody is advocating ineffective teaching methods.

[Kravex]

all that would mean is that at worst it can't achieve the 'outstanding' rating, which is only fair if the school is failing to adequately teach about cultural diversity. Not that it matters, as the school is actively working to comply with the recommendations.

 

Isn't that like saying no school can ever get outstanding in geography because they didn't visit the countries they discussed? 

[compl3x]

You've misconstrued my point. Obviously Ofsted will determine whether such teaching methods are effective but there is no stipulation as to how the subject is taught, aside from it requiring first-hand experience. Nobody is advocating ineffective teaching methods.

 

 

...And first-hand experience is something they can't provide because of a lack of diversity at the school, which isn't deliberate on their part. If first-hand experience is the only way to attain the "outstanding" rating, any substitution will inevitably fall short. What other method do you think would be as good as constant interaction with people from different cultures? I honestly can't think of anything that wouldn't seem at least tokenistic or at worst potentially offensive.

 

 

It just seems pointless to apply certain criteria to a school when you know they can't attain a passing grade in it. If the ratings don't really matter, that is, not achieving an outstanding rating has no real consequence, then what is the whole point of doing it in the first place?

[Chicane-UK Veteran]

This country is really going down the toilet :(

[FloatingFatMan]

The school believes otherwise and is actively working to comply with Ofsted's recommendations, as the article points out. The issue isn't how it's done but just that it is done. You've taken a perfectly reasonable recommendation and twisted it to be an attack on the school for not having enough non-white students, which it isn't. You've come up with excuse after excuse why it can't be done and criticised all those who point out how easy it would be. You still haven't explained why a student exchange programme couldn't work, as schools in the UK have been doing that for decades - heck, my Dad went to Germany on a student exchange when he was at school.

 

As I said earlier, even if the school can't meet the recommendations?which seems unlikely?all that would mean is that at worst it can't achieve the 'outstanding' rating, which is only fair if the school is failing to adequately teach about cultural diversity. Not that it matters, as the school is actively working to comply with the recommendations.

 

And you keep coming up with half-assed "solutions", which will be nothing more then completely ineffective and temporary measures with zero long-term affect.

 

I have two kids in school, so I'm well aware of all these issues.  I'm also aware of the high cost of these exchange programmes you speak off, and they're generally out of the range of most families except those most well off, especially in the current economic climate.  They're NOT a viable solution for most families, by any means.

 

A school shouldn't be denied an outstanding rating just because of multiculturalism, when said school excels in all other areas and isn't in a region with a high multicultural population. That's just not acceptable.

This country is really going down the toilet :(

 

Going?  It went down there a looong time ago. 

[theyarecomingforyou]

Isn't that like saying no school can ever get outstanding in geography because they didn't visit the countries they discussed? 

No, it's not. Music and art can be taught academically but in schools they're taught first-hand because it achieves better results. A great example of the problem is the way in which languages are taught in school. In the UK languages are typically taught academically rather than through first-hand exposure and the UK has a terrible record when it comes to second languages, especially in comparison to mainland Europe where it is taught first-hand.

 

...And first-hand experience is something they can't provide because of a lack of diversity at the school, which isn't deliberate on their part.

Nobody ever asserted it was deliberate, just that it was a shortcoming of the school.

 

And you keep coming up with half-assed "solutions", which will be nothing more then completely ineffective and temporary measures with zero long-term affect.

 

I have two kids in school, so I'm well aware of all these issues.  I'm also aware of the high cost of these exchange programmes you speak off, and they're generally out of the range of most families except those most well off, especially in the current economic climate.  They're NOT a viable solution for most families, by any means.

You have not provided any evidence that the solutions I proposed would be ineffective or have zero long-term effect. I don't think there is any doubt that first-hand experience is better for learning and therefore is better for teaching about cultural diversity. Further, there is no implication that families would have to front the costs for participation in a student exchange program and after the cost of transport the cost is minimal (an extra mouth to feed) - that would be something that would have to be determined if it was the preferred solution. That was simply one suggestion of many.

 

You seem opposed to the idea of first-hand experience when it comes to cultural diversity and seem to be doing all you can to criticise any proposals to address it.

 

A school shouldn't be denied an outstanding rating just because of multiculturalism, when said school excels in all other areas and isn't in a region with a high multicultural population. That's just not acceptable.

And if you'd read the article you'd see that it wasn't. It was simply one factor highlighted by Ofsted. The school was NOT marked down solely for the lack of cultural diversity.

 

Anyway, I don't see the point in taking this discussion any further. Ofsted pointed out a flaw of the school - said school is addressing it. The school added a school trip to a mosque as a result of the report, which is proof that it can easily be done. The cost isn't even mentioned in the article. None of this would even be an issue were it not for the race-baiting of The Telegraph, a right-wing rag with an agenda.