Kirkburn Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I sense a spike in home schooling on the way, and a sudden boom in home school teachers. All this bullying BS is just that BS. Anyone over the age of hmm lets say 25, had to deal with bullying, it made most of us stronger. I fear for this generation of kids when they hit the real world, and they get a boss that is "mean" or a "bully". Infact, where are the laws to protect adults from bullies, these same kids are going to need those too. So on and so forth. It's a parents job to protect their children and to police them, NOT the school. If your child is getting bullied and you dont bother to notice whos fault is that? //edit: I have a teenage daughter, I police her accounts. Its not that difficult. First, some kids kill themselves over bullying. You don't 'get over' that. Seconds, how the heck is a parent to know that bullying is occurring if their child doesn't tell or show them? It's not always an obvious thing, especially if the child is quite introverted. What do you even expect the parents to do if they find out it is happening, without involving the school? Are they expected to come in and berate the bully during lunchbreak? So, no, it can't solely be down to the parents to police, either. (Note: I'm not saying I agree with this law) DConnell, Shiranui and TPreston 3 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim K Global Moderator Posted January 22, 2015 Global Moderator Share Posted January 22, 2015 I assure you I am not arguing for the sake of arguing... Remember, the US Constitution wasn't drafted as a limit on State Government. It was drafted as a setup and limitation on Federal government power only. This was reaffirmed with the "truism" 10th amendment that stated this clearly in case anyone missed in their reading of the base constitution. http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/amdt10_user.html#amdt10_hd4 a good writeup explaining this reality. Additionally, keep in mind the wording of the Bill of Rights that are the bedrock of our "rights". It opens with the following: "CONGRESS shall make no law..." again, reasserting its limits stopping at the Federal government. Congress, obviously, doesn't pass laws governing everything that can happen in Pennsylvania or any other state. It wasn't until we got the 14th Amendment that we had the bulk of the Bill of Rights protections forced onto the States and the redefinition of citizenship to the Federal level and away from the States; even this really took until the 1920s to solidify. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_Rights For the sake of keeping this simple and not to turn it into a full-fledged constitutional law thread. 10th Amendment, as you mentioned, states "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution" ... for which I have not argued. This does not mean that a state can enact a law which trumps the Constitution for example: -Would you agree that no state can enact a law to reestablish slavery (violating the 13th Amendment)? -Would you not also agree that no state can pass laws that interfere with the Constitution, treaties, etc (Article 6)? -A state passing a law allowing random inspections of one's home (violating the 4th Amendment)? Anyway, I've read more in depth the original article at http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/22/illlinois-students-facebook-password/ Which references a letter stating that: "If your child has an account on a social networking website, e.g., Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, ask.fm, etc., please be aware that State law requires school authorities to notify you that your child may be asked to provide his or her password for these accounts to school officials in certain circumstances." But that is not in Public Act 098-0801 (nor are the words Facebook. Instagram, Twitter, social networking, etc.) So, this really isn't a state vs. federal debate anyway. This appears to be just the public school system using the Public Act as a cover to enact a policy which may be successful in instilling fear into the parent/child so that they will reveal the requested password. However, I doubt (if brought to court) it would hold up. R.S. et al v. Minnewaska Area School District No. 2149 et al as an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Don't see the issue. Don't be a dick in school or online. Shiranui 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I sense a spike in home schooling on the way, and a sudden boom in home school teachers. All this bullying BS is just that BS. Anyone over the age of hmm lets say 25, had to deal with bullying, it made most of us stronger. I fear for this generation of kids when they hit the real world, and they get a boss that is "mean" or a "bully". Infact, where are the laws to protect adults from bullies, these same kids are going to need those too. So on and so forth. It's a parents job to protect their children and to police them, NOT the school. If your child is getting bullied and you dont bother to notice whos fault is that? //edit: I have a teenage daughter, I police her accounts. Its not that difficult. How to spot if a person was a bully and not the bullied... then again, there's a lot of bullies who think they are bullied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim K Global Moderator Posted January 22, 2015 Global Moderator Share Posted January 22, 2015 Don't see the issue. Don't be a dick in school or online. The issue is that the student, who has reasonable expectation of privacy, could have his/her fourth amendment rights violated just because someone claimed that he/she was bullying them. Example: Student A gave up their password and the school started looking through the emails, private postings, etc. This student mentioned not liking the teachers or the school (note: nothing illegal / no bullying) ... would that student then face possible repercussions even though no evidence of bullying was found? Furthermore, what if said student started mentioning a medical condition that they had (let's say an STD) and was seeking private help from a friend...does the school need to know or have a privilege to access that private communication (let's just say the parents already know and the student is getting treated). Does the school need to see that student A just had sex for the first time with student B? See...you can open a whole can of stuff that they don't need to know. What you are saying, is that you have no problem for the school to access their private communications. That, I do have a problem with. If they are having an issue at school...deal with it at the school and have the parents involved. The schools should not be sifting through private communications. Parents need to parent and take an active role in their child's online and offline behavior...not the school. The school needs to maintain a learning environment seek involvement from the parents psmoked 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The issue is that the student, who has reasonable expectation of privacy, could have his/her fourth amendment rights violated just because someone claimed that he/she was bullying them. Example: Student A gave up their password and the school started looking through the emails, private postings, etc. This student mentioned not liking the teachers or the school (note: nothing illegal / no bullying) ... would that student then face possible repercussions even though no evidence of bullying was found? Furthermore, what if said student started mentioning a medical condition that they had (let's say an STD) and was seeking private help from a friend...does the school need to know or have a privilege to access that private communication (let's just say the parents already know and the student is getting treated). Does the school need to see that student A just had sex for the first time with student B? See...you can open a whole can of stuff that they don't need to know. What you are saying, is that you have no problem for the school to access their private communications. That, I do have a problem with. If they are having an issue at school...deal with it at the school and have the parents involved. The schools should not be sifting through private communications. Parents need to parent and take an active role in their child's online and offline behavior...not the school. The school needs to maintain a learning environment seek involvement from the parents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim K Global Moderator Posted January 22, 2015 Global Moderator Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yes, but a lot of parents don't parent, so someone needs to. Also your slippery slope argument doesn't really carry any weight with me. Not to mention your first premise is just entirely false based on the actual letter sent out, which states that they need reasonable cause to believe that a student's account has proof they've violated rules before they can obtain a password. That would really rule out someone just saying they've been bullied via FB, but if that person could show the staff on their own FB evidence, than they would have a reasonable belief. The school should let law enforcement handle it, through a warrant, especially since bullying is in the criminal code. The school should not be allowed to say..."we have reasonable suspicion so hand it over". They are not investigators. psmoked and Brandon H 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Observer Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 If it was my kid, i would tell them to say " I wish to call my lawyer " to the school. Jim K and psmoked 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 If it was my kid, i would tell them to say " I wish to call my lawyer " to the school. Your kid would of course be looking for a new school shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim K Global Moderator Posted January 22, 2015 Global Moderator Share Posted January 22, 2015 Your kid would of course be looking for a new school shortly. ...or the school would be facing a lawsuit. The_Observer and psmoked 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notyours Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Heck, think I would tell my kid, make a secondary account to use for religion and I want to see it being used !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 The school should let law enforcement handle it, through a warrant, especially since bullying is in the criminal code. The school should not be allowed to say..."we have reasonable suspicion so hand it over". They are not investigators. They are in charge of taking care of children and investigating issues that affect children while at school. I would expect any school doing whatever they can to stop bullying and other such things, along with law enforcement if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim K Global Moderator Posted January 23, 2015 Global Moderator Share Posted January 23, 2015 They are in charge of taking care of children and investigating issues that affect children while at school. I would expect any school doing whatever they can to stop bullying and other such things, along with law enforcement if necessary. Agreed, however, not their private communication. Once again I Tews, psmoked and Brandon H 3 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Agreed, however, not their private communication. Once again I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LogicalApex MVC Posted January 23, 2015 MVC Share Posted January 23, 2015 For the sake of keeping this simple and not to turn it into a full-fledged constitutional law thread. 10th Amendment, as you mentioned, states "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution" ... for which I have not argued. This does not mean that a state can enact a law which trumps the Constitution for example: -Would you agree that no state can enact a law to reestablish slavery (violating the 13th Amendment)? -Would you not also agree that no state can pass laws that interfere with the Constitution, treaties, etc (Article 6)? -A state passing a law allowing random inspections of one's home (violating the 4th Amendment)? Anyway, I've read more in depth the original article at http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/22/illlinois-students-facebook-password/ Which references a letter stating that: "If your child has an account on a social networking website, e.g., Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, ask.fm, etc., please be aware that State law requires school authorities to notify you that your child may be asked to provide his or her password for these accounts to school officials in certain circumstances." But that is not in Public Act 098-0801 (nor are the words Facebook. Instagram, Twitter, social networking, etc.) So, this really isn't a state vs. federal debate anyway. This appears to be just the public school system using the Public Act as a cover to enact a policy which may be successful in instilling fear into the parent/child so that they will reveal the requested password. However, I doubt (if brought to court) it would hold up. R.S. et al v. Minnewaska Area School District No. 2149 et al as an example. The confusion that you're deriving is that you're seeing the Constitution as supreme in all respects. My point, as is the legal reality, is that the Constitution is supreme only in the areas that the Constitution is given authority. To make my point a little clearer... Prior to the 14th Amendment the Constitution didn't mention what defined a citizen in the United States. As a result, the power of determining citizenship was up to each individual state. The US Congress couldn't pass a law regarding who was and wasn't a citizen until the 14th amended the Constitution to enumerate this power to the Constitution and, by extension, to Congress. As a result, the Constitution is supreme in areas it has been given authority. Otherwise, the Constitution of the state prevails. So, no, the Constitution isn't always the top law. It depends heavily on the actual area of law... So even though you don't think you're arguing against the truism of the 10th amendment you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim K Global Moderator Posted January 23, 2015 Global Moderator Share Posted January 23, 2015 We are saying the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remixedcat Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 My god alot of peoople have turned into pissy pants pansies. you know who's the bigger bully? TEACHERS!!! You know what I did when I was bullied in school? I WHOOPED ASS!!! I didn't stand there and take it like a sissy. people have gotten too soft and too politically correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolol Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 now that you mention it, why its only student and not the all citizen of Illinois? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starman444 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 The way around that is too have two facebook acounts. One for uni, one for home Or say u dont use Facebook and only use it on 3g or home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 ...or the school would be facing a lawsuit. no they wouldn't, they are responsible for what goes on on their grounds, you can't sue them because they don't put your child on a pedestal. in fact if you are warned your child might be a bully and they want to check his FB your reaction shouldn't be to sue, it should be to talk with him and check his Facebook yourself. DConnell 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skiver Veteran Posted January 23, 2015 Veteran Share Posted January 23, 2015 I'm sorry, but I find all this privacy crap a joke. The bigger problem here is that the kid is a bully - no sympathy for them if it happens. Maybe if they learn to be a decent human being then this crap won't happen and they have nothing to worry about. spenser.d 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clirion Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I'm sorry, but I find all this privacy crap a joke. The bigger problem here is that the kid is a bully - no sympathy for them if it happens. Maybe if they learn to be a decent human being then this crap won't happen and they have nothing to worry about. Not really. Its a question of what rights does the school have vs the attendee of the school. There has been a report that X is a bully, hand over personal information now. Has it been proved? Remember, this is not something that physically exists on the property of the school. While the student may be attending the school. More interesting is, by extension, Please provide all information by X student, no matter where it is stored. So a school would have more powers to get information (In Illinois) than the Federal Government has, because if that information is not on US soil........ I believe there is currently a big dust up about this. psmoked 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skiver Veteran Posted January 23, 2015 Veteran Share Posted January 23, 2015 Not really. Its a question of what rights does the school have vs the attendee of the school. There has been a report that X is a bully, hand over personal information now. Has it been proved? Remember, this is not something that physically exists on the property of the school. While the student may be attending the school. More interesting is, by extension, Please provide all information by X student, no matter where it is stored. So a school would have more powers to get information (In Illinois) than the Federal Government has, because if that information is not on US soil........ I believe there is currently a big dust up about this. Whilst I agree with you to an extent, this refers to cyber bullying, therefore if person a sends a hurtful message to person b, person b has a full track of these messages etc. Proof will not be difficult to get hold of. DConnell and spenser.d 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolol Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 and again, why this only applicable to Illionois students and not for the non-student bullies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyfrog Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 What next, the school has the right to your house keys so they can come into your home and look through the student's closet? Jim K and psmoked 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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