Illinois students might have to forfeit their Facebook password

[Jim K Global Moderator]

What next, the school has the right to your house keys so they can come into your home and look through the student's closet?

 

Don't be silly...the house isn't on school grounds.

 

ooo...right.  Neither is Facebook.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

no they wouldn't, they are responsible for what goes on on their grounds, you can't sue them because they don't put your child on a pedestal. in fact if you are warned your child might be a bully and they want to check his FB your reaction shouldn't be to sue, it should be to talk with him and check his Facebook yourself.

 

You're right...I would check her Facebook myself if they communicated to me troublesome information.  However, I do not want the school to strong arm her into revealing the password so that they can sift through her private communication.  That is my job (if warranted)...not theirs.

 

If they want her password...they need to get a warrant.  

[Ryoken]

You all do realize this is the school trying to keep it out of the courts.. You say no, it gets elevated from a complaint against Bullying being delt with in school, to them calling the cops and reporting harassment.

Second, if they accessed it on school grounds, and they will have.. don't give me your fantasy world where they only access it from home, they will have accessed it there cause this generation can't help it, then they are justified in asking to see it... Same way they can read your notes.

 

And for the people saying "Bullying happened before they should just deal with it..".. I lived as we were moving from the old style to the new. Old bullying was being called names in class, and pelted with bits of eraser or spitballs. It was annoying by not that serious.. (not counting the outright violent acts of a thug..). Now it's able to be digital, it's not just some people in your class/grade, it can be everyone in the whole school reading something on you. Seeing pictures online instantly (when before it would take days just to develop a picture, that would have to be shown to one person at a time).. Anything said to/about you is online forever, it never goes away.

 

Simple fact it, things have changed. Some of it, sure, HTFU and move on. But I've seen stuff that if you tried it with an adult, you'd get your head bashed in, or a visit from the cops. Too bad students can't do the former (generally) and won't do the latter because regardless of what the police do, the next day at school is gonna be worse because most of the student body will loathe you. As an adult we can leave situations, change jobs, departments, whatever. As a student, you are screwed. You are legally required to go there. Most parents don't understand.. we had a case here of pictures being shared after a RAPE, and I know of parents who said "Boys will be boys, who cares, it'll be forgotten in a few weeks.." not grasping the fact that it's online, it's ALWAYS going to be there.. Now of course that's an extreme example, but even just an embarrassing picture is now tagged to you forever, and there's lots more of them because unlike my day where you needed a proper Camera, with FILM, now every student has a cellphone with a camera and the ability to send it to just about everyone in seconds.

 

Parents need to step up and realize this isn't like it was when they were kids. Teach their children some respect. And for ###### sakes, stop treating their little Timmy or Tammy like they are royalty and can do no wrong. If the school comes to you with issues like this, your first response shouldn't be call my lawyer, it should be to ask your child if it's true, then demand they prove it. Cause if it's true, they world of hurt coming down would make them wish only the school was involved.

[Clirion]

Whilst I agree with you to an extent, this refers to cyber bullying, therefore if person a sends a hurtful message to person b, person b has a full track of these messages etc.

 

Proof will not be difficult to get hold of.

 

Illinois also has a Criminal Code directly addressing Cyberbullying.  Again the School systems job in this is to be investigative branch?

My understanding is that the Police is the investigative branch in Illinois.  The Judicial Branch decides if there is a breach in the law, and if so, what the punishment should be.

The Executive Branch then enforces the verdict from the Judicial Branch.

 

Nowhere in this circle are the Various School Districts in the State of Illinois. 

 

Now think of this, would you hand this type of power to a Company, via a Law. 

 

 

 

*edit, The more I think it if, I believe that this very tactic is not legal from a corporation.

[Ryoken]

Whilst I agree with you to an extent, this refers to cyber bullying, therefore if person a sends a hurtful message to person b, person b has a full track of these messages etc.

 

Proof will not be difficult to get hold of.

Depends on what they are searching for. 

 

I can make an annon account to send the messages with, and they could be checking to see if I talked about it to others on my main account. Or if others are involved in the harassment.. etc.

[DConnell Member]

no they wouldn't, they are responsible for what goes on on their grounds, you can't sue them because they don't put your child on a pedestal. in fact if you are warned your child might be a bully and they want to check his FB your reaction shouldn't be to sue, it should be to talk with him and check his Facebook yourself.

 

Exactly. See if the accusation is warranted, and then take appropriate action. Either dealing with the bullying, or telling the school that there doesn't seem to be any bullying going on. There should certainly be some evidence required that some bullying is going on. And this is from someone who was bullied mercilessly in school.

 

I'm glad to see that bullying is being taken more seriously than when I was a kid, but there needs to be some protection for the alleged bully as well as the apparent victim. Otherwise it could become far too easy a way to get someone in trouble.

[Skiver Veteran]

Illinois also has a Criminal Code directly addressing Cyberbullying.  Again the School systems job in this is to be investigative branch?

My understanding is that the Police is the investigative branch in Illinois.  The Judicial Branch decides if there is a breach in the law, and if so, what the punishment should be.

The Executive Branch then enforces the verdict from the Judicial Branch.

 

Nowhere in this circle are the Various School Districts in the State of Illinois. 

 

Now think of this, would you hand this type of power to a Company, via a Law. 

 

 

 

*edit, The more I think it if, I believe that this very tactic is not legal from a corporation.

 

Apologies, maybe I am missing something here but I unfortunately don't follow. What company?

 

 

 

Depends on what they are searching for. 

 

I can make an annon account to send the messages with, and they could be checking to see if I talked about it to others on my main account. Or if others are involved in the harassment.. etc.

 

You're over complicating it a tad imo. We know what they are searching for, cyber-bullying. If you have an anonymous account, then they will have no way of tracking these types of messages down to any one person. This is about getting the details from someone when they have grounds for suspicion, they aren't going to just pick random people and say it might be you. Like any law, when you accuse someone you have to be pretty sure they did it before you do because it will just come back to bite you on the ass.

[Beyond Godlike]

I would set my password to something really offensive and enable 2-factor.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Illinois also has a Criminal Code directly addressing Cyberbullying.  Again the School systems job in this is to be investigative branch?

My understanding is that the Police is the investigative branch in Illinois.  The Judicial Branch decides if there is a breach in the law, and if so, what the punishment should be.

The Executive Branch then enforces the verdict from the Judicial Branch.

 

Nowhere in this circle are the Various School Districts in the State of Illinois. 

 

Now think of this, would you hand this type of power to a Company, via a Law. 

 

 

 

*edit, The more I think it if, I believe that this very tactic is not legal from a corporation.

I'm not sure I'm following what you're attempting to say. Likely an error on my part, but can you clarify for me?

 

The legislative branch is allowed to delegate the job of law enforcement to anyone it pleases. As such, you have police and non-police in a variety of capacities who are able to arrest someone and present a claim of law violating behavior to the prosecutor whom will bring the case before the court. Everything from simple citizen arrest authorizations onto the police sitting in the court house who answer to the court and not to the executive branch...

 

Additionally, the constant assertion that this be solely a court matter makes no sense at all.  The job of the school is to ensure a safe environment for all students attending the school. Police and courts are often very slow to react and involving them without enough evidence may take a very long time to hunt that evidence down in a court appropriate manner. Meanwhile, the student victim (or multiple student victims) are at risk on an ongoing basis. The school doesn't call the police for every single rule violation done on its grounds before acting. This is no different.

 

Obviously, if the investigation uncovers evidence of bullying, especially serious cases, the police would be involved and a proper penal case sought, but the school doesn't have weeks or months to delay... There is no "victim protection" for school students...

[Clirion]

I'm not sure I'm following what you're attempting to say. Likely an error on my part, but can you clarify for me?

 

The legislative branch is allowed to delegate the job of law enforcement to anyone it pleases. As such, you have police and non-police in a variety of capacities who are able to arrest someone and present a claim of law violating behavior to the prosecutor whom will bring the case before the court. Everything from simple citizen arrest authorizations onto the police sitting in the court house who answer to the court and not to the executive branch...

 

Additionally, the constant assertion that this be solely a court matter makes no sense at all.  The job of the school is to ensure a safe environment for all students attending the school. Police and courts are often very slow to react and involving them without enough evidence may take a very long time to hunt that evidence down in a court appropriate manner. Meanwhile, the student victim (or multiple student victims) are at risk on an ongoing basis. The school doesn't call the police for every single rule violation done on its grounds before acting. This is no different.

 

Obviously, if the investigation uncovers evidence of bullying, especially serious cases, the police would be involved and a proper penal case sought, but the school doesn't have weeks or months to delay... There is no "victim protection" for school students...

 

Actually it is very different.  Via this law, students are required to hand over information that is not contained in the school.  It is not in their preview and it is not in plain sight.

This requires a warrant from every other agency of the government.  How many lawsuits have been filed about employers requiring Facebook access to find out what is going on with their employees Facebook account.  Customs requiring passwords to access equipment to make sure nothing is there.  The NSA tapping information without a warrant.  Each and everyone one of the examples given is no different.  If the school is being placed in an investigative position, then they will need to get a warrant.  Just like the rest of the government is required.

 

Now if it is, the school is required to act quickly,  there are other steps the school is allowed to take that is well within their purview, ie.  Transfer the "alleged" bully (and I say that because it is an unknown at the time) to a different school, monitor all behavior inside of the school. If there is reasonable suspicion, they can suspend them from school.

 

At the high school level, in and around Chicago, there is a Police Officer on campus.  Reports can go directly to them. 

 

 

I am not thrilled with the Patriot Act at the National level.  I am not happy with its smaller cousin at the State level either.

[Clirion]

Apologies, maybe I am missing something here but I unfortunately don't follow. What company?

 

Companies were starting to ask for Social Media Passwords or have people login to their Social Media accounts to check them.   From that practice sprung this:

 

Illinois State Law from 2013  H.B. 1047:

 

Amends provisions of the Right to Privacy in the Workplace Act prohibiting certain inquiries by an employer; deletes language in those provisions regarding an employee's social networking website account information; provides that: an employer may not request or require an employee or prospective employee to provide a user name, password, or other means to gain access to the employee's or prospective employee's personal online account.

 

State Law in Illinois does not allow a company to do exactly what they are asking the school districts to do. 

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Actually it is very different.  Via this law, students are required to hand over information that is not contained in the school.  It is not in their preview and it is not in plain sight.

This requires a warrant from every other agency of the government.  How many lawsuits have been filed about employers requiring Facebook access to find out what is going on with their employees Facebook account.  Customs requiring passwords to access equipment to make sure nothing is there.  The NSA tapping information without a warrant.  Each and everyone one of the examples given is no different.  If the school is being placed in an investigative position, then they will need to get a warrant.  Just like the rest of the government is required.

 

Now if it is, the school is required to act quickly,  there are other steps the school is allowed to take that is well within their purview, ie.  Transfer the "alleged" bully (and I say that because it is an unknown at the time) to a different school, monitor all behavior inside of the school. If there is reasonable suspicion, they can suspend them from school.

 

At the high school level, in and around Chicago, there is a Police Officer on campus.  Reports can go directly to them. 

 

 

I am not thrilled with the Patriot Act at the National level.  I am not happy with its smaller cousin at the State level either.

No, the information requested isn't protected by warrant requirements in the 4th amendment... The information requested in stored via a third party like Facebook where SCOTUS has already ruled is not protected by 4th amendment restrictions...

 

SCOTUS has routinely ruled that your 4th amendment rights do not extend to information you have shared publicly or have furnished to third parties.

 

Maybe the law should be amended to remove to requesting of the password at all and just require Facebook, and other services, to furnish the information on demand of the school district...

[Clirion]

No, the information requested isn't protected by warrant requirements in the 4th amendment... The information requested in stored via a third party like Facebook where SCOTUS has already ruled is not protected by 4th amendment restrictions...

 

SCOTUS has routinely ruled that your 4th amendment rights do not extend to information you have shared publicly or have furnished to third parties.

 

Maybe the law should be amended to remove to requesting of the password at all and just require Facebook, and other services, to furnish the information on demand of the school district...

 

This has never been about the information on Facebook or any other Social Media site.  If you put it out in the public, then it is there.  I could argue that if it is on Facebook it is in plain sight.

My entire problem with this is the requirement to turn over the password.  That is where my problem is.

 

As the post just above this shows, they have a problem when companies have this ability (so do I), but they have no problem with the School Districts having that ability (I have one there).

[Skiver Veteran]

Companies were starting to ask for Social Media Passwords or have people login to their Social Media accounts to check them.   From that practice sprung this:

 

Illinois State Law from 2013  H.B. 1047:

 

Amends provisions of the Right to Privacy in the Workplace Act prohibiting certain inquiries by an employer; deletes language in those provisions regarding an employee's social networking website account information; provides that: an employer may not request or require an employee or prospective employee to provide a user name, password, or other means to gain access to the employee's or prospective employee's personal online account.

 

State Law in Illinois does not allow a company to do exactly what they are asking the school districts to do. 

 

Again, I could be wrong here but, are these schools not state schools? The difference obviously that the state is still in control here, a private company is a lot harder to control without laws, the schools will not be.

 

This has never been about the information on Facebook or any other Social Media site.  If you put it out in the public, then it is there.  I could argue that if it is on Facebook it is in plain sight.

My entire problem with this is the requirement to turn over the password.  That is where my problem is.

 

As the post just above this shows, they have a problem when companies have this ability (so do I), but they have no problem with the School Districts having that ability (I have one there).

 

People can easily hide things on Facebook, the vast majority of my information on Facebook is hidden so it is not always in plain sight at all. As I mentioned above (unless I'm wrong about the state school part), they are fully in control of a state school, if they want to do or change something they can do so very easily. For a private company that is not so easy.

 

I understand where you are coming from on this, there is a slight hypocritical side to this (do as I say, not as I do). However as I said before the problem here is bullying and guess what, if you aren't a bully then you aren't ever going to be forced to give your password up so there shouldn't be a problem. If you are a bully then I'm sorry but you don't deserve the privacy IMO. 

[Tews]

I was in school in the 60' where cyber bulling was not something you had to worry about. If you had a problem with another student, you would go across the street and settle the matter and the fight would last a few nimutes,and that was the end of the matter.

[Arachno 1D]

Lets just go back to the concept of proof.If I was a computer technician looking for evidence of a criminal act I need to enact a chain of evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that any evidence I found was genuine and not manufactured.I cannot see any school skilled or able to provide this chain of evidence in any way, shape or form

Despite what ever the accused is stated to have done they are asked to hand of private information only shared with those they have selected to receive such information hence it is private unless proven otherwise.Nothing I have read so far seems in my mind to give any right by said parties or others,to either read or access such data when accusations are unproven.

 

This is the thin end of a wedge and the next thing you know the Schools would be asking for access to all online media storage,email accounts and bookmarked websites just in case it compromises school or state regulations or reflects badly on the school or its teaching staff.

[Clirion]

Again, I could be wrong here but, are these schools not state schools? The difference obviously that the state is still in control here, a private company is a lot harder to control without laws, the schools will not be.

 

 

People can easily hide things on Facebook, the vast majority of my information on Facebook is hidden so it is not always in plain sight at all. As I mentioned above (unless I'm wrong about the state school part), they are fully in control of a state school, if they want to do or change something they can do so very easily. For a private company that is not so easy.

 

I understand where you are coming from on this, there is a slight hypocritical side to this (do as I say, not as I do). However as I said before the problem here is bullying and guess what, if you aren't a bully then you aren't ever going to be forced to give your password up so there shouldn't be a problem. If you are a bully then I'm sorry but you don't deserve the privacy IMO. 

Substitute any crime you want in there and change school to the police department.  Still happy with the result?   You have not done X you should not have a problem.

 

To answer the question about schools, some are private some are public (More public than private).  So this is not apply to private schools and does apply to public schools?   Private schools are not under the control of the School district other to verify credentials and coursework.

[Arachno 1D]

Lawyer:Officer please describe to the court how you obtained this evidence

Officer: Well your Honor we applied to a Judge for a warrant to access the stipulated portion of data that applied to the course of our inquiry.I then used the services of a computer forensic scientist to gain access and record such data as pertaining to the court order.After collating and weighing the evidence the CPS began prosecution of the accused in court.

 

 

Defence barrister: Describe how you obtained this evidence

School Head: Well we threatened Mr X that we would expel them from class unless they gave us their Facebook password then Teacher X logged on to the account and printed of a variety of pages which we passed round the all the staff to discuss the claim of harassment.Whilst we were there we noted Mr X and Mr Y disparaged the school and their teacher and whilst the original claim of harassment was unproven we expelled Mr X and Mr Y for this later breech of newly written School regulations .

[Rohdekill]

This has always been the case and it makes sense...

 

For instance, in the "old days" you couldn't stuff a gun in your locker and have the luxury of waiting for the school to seek out a court order to search the locker before opening it. It seems uncool that they can request this information, but cyber-bulling is a serious problem and schools should have tools to combat that threat. Kids aren't adults and they don't get the same protections as them...

What old days are you referring to?  When I went to H.S. in the early 80's, they had the right to go through every locker, whenever they wanted, without a warrant.  The locker is property of the school.  They are only letting you use it.