Question about switches and routers

5,219 · February 20, 2015

In my home I have a cable modem connected to a Netgear wifi router. I have a cable running to the basement connected to a switch to which is connected my Synology NAS and then a longer connection up to my bedroom which has another switch connected to my HTPC, AppleTV, and GoogleTV. My problem is that I get lots of pauses and buffering while watching content on my bedroom HTPC. Could it be because I have 2 switches along the way and I should have used routers? A cable runs from my cable modem to a router in the living room and connected to that is another HTPC, Xbox one, ps4, av receiver. I don't have the same problem on that HTPC. It does buffer once in a blue moon and even that doesn't seem like it should happen on a gigabit network. Is having those two switches on the network actually degrading network performance?

6,710 · February 20, 2015

In my home I have a cable modem connected to a Netgear wifi router. I have a cable running to the basement connected to a switch to which is connected my Synology NAS and then a longer connection up to my bedroom which has another switch connected to my HTPC, AppleTV, and GoogleTV. My problem is that I get lots of pauses and buffering while watching content on my bedroom HTPC. Could it be because I have 2 switches along the way and I should have used routers? A cable runs from my cable modem to a router in the living room and connected to that is another HTPC, Xbox one, ps4, av receiver. I don't have the same problem on that HTPC. It does buffer once in a blue moon and even that doesn't seem like it should happen on a gigabit network. Is having those two switches on the network actually degrading network performance?

A diagram would be great. You know budman is going to ask for one anyways when he pops in this thread.

5,219 · February 20, 2015

A diagram would be great. You know budman is going to ask for one anyways when he pops in this thread.

Yeah, I forgot his name but I hoped budman would chime in. I'll see if I can make a diagram.

1,116 · February 20, 2015

No, you shouldn't be using routers instead of switches. If everything's on the same IP network then switches should move the data through the network just fine.

Are the switches managed or unmanaged? If they're managed can you get stats from the ports in the chain about transmit/receive errors? Are you sure everything running at Gigabit speeds, including the link between the two switches? Do you know if the cables are shielded? Does the problem manifest itself if you disconnect all other devices from the network (including turning off the wifi)?

11,851 · February 20, 2015

NEVER EVER use a range extender. those halve your b/w and co-channel with your router and degrade it.

Also diagram plox.

Also don't double NAT with routers. Use one switch and wire up and wire up APs as needed.

11,094 · February 20, 2015

Diagram would help with ips associated with devices and interfaces. Gliffy.com if you want to use something professional looking.

31,898 · February 20, 2015

Yup a drawing would be good.. So you have 2 routers off your cable modem? Yeah that is not possible - a cable "modem" doesn't do NAT and would only have 1 ethernet port. So you have a cable gateway and into that you have 2 routers, and off one router you have 2 switches?

Please draw this - does not have to be fancy. Gliffy is easy free site to make nice drawings with.. http://www.gliffy.com/

But as stated, you should really only have 1 router! Which I have a feeling is your "modem" is really a gateway modem/router combo and then you have 2 routers off that your double natting for sure - and could even have isolated networks.

Also what are these switches? A listing of make and model of all your hardware would be fantastic.

You can link switches together for sure, You can run multiple switches off a router, you can daisy chain them, etc. Where does wifi come into play are you trying view video via wifi? Keep in mind that if you have gig switches that if off router or connected together you can run into a bottleneck.

So you have this with gig switches.

So A and B can talk to each other full gig, you could even have x any y on that same switch talking to each other at same time at full gig. C and D talking to each other at full gig. But your connection between them is only 1 gig.

So If A is talking to C and B is talking to D at the same time they have to share the 1 gig connection between switches. If you have a problem and that connection between switches is only 100 for some reason, then Yeah A to C could be slower than A talking to B.

Lets see a drawing and we can work out if your doing anything wrong, where to check for a problem, etc. Please post make and model of switches, routers, modem, etc. As to a smart/managed switch - that can come in handy for troubleshooting issues and getting fancy with lagg or vlans, etc. But in general home doesn't really need that. Comes down to what your wanting to do and your skill set - for example I wouldn't really use anything but a managed switch in my setup unless I just needed a couple of ports in a room or something. And even then I would most likely use smart switch, without it you could only have 1 vlan in that location.

5,330 · February 20, 2015

Does the buffering happen at a specific time throughout the day (such as when you are generally in the room using it)? Does it happen if you try testing it out at a time your normally don't use it? When it has the buffering issues does your other HTPC run fine (no buffering)?

Generally speaking switches work as well as (if not better than) routers when it comes to home networking and not needing extra management features. Switches are easier to configure (no configuration needed if they are unmanaged) and shouldn't degrade performance unless something is wrong with them.

31,898 · February 20, 2015

So for example here is a really horrific drawing of my network. Really needs to be proper drawing vs something that just keeps getting edited from a quick layout did way back when, etc.

But as you can see I have 2 switch between my nas that is a VM and the device that plays my video on my TVs - the popcorn hour.

The popcorn that is in the living room is only 100mbit connection. I Leverage my wlan segment for more than just wifi, there is printer and my dvrs, etc. And then there is a guest wireless that all gets trunked between 2 switches and then to a router that is running in VM.

I have no problems watching video be it on my TV or my tablets/laptops/phones..

5,219 · February 21, 2015

Is there a good tool for properly diagramming my network?

I don't know if it helps, but picture this. In my computer room, I gave my cable modem and connected to it in bridge mode is a 5 port Netgear wireless router. In the computer room, my PC and Mac are wired to the router. A cable runs to a router in my living room to which is connected an HTPC, Xbox one, ps4, TV, Fire TV. Another cable runs to a switch in the basement which connects to a Synology NAS and also to another switch in my bedroom which has another HTPC, AppleTV, GoogleTV. The things that connect wirelessly are my iOS devices, Hue, Nest. The bedroom HTPC is the one with the buffering issues. The only difference between that HTPC and my living room one is that the living room one only connects to a router and the bedroom one connects to 2 switches. This leaves me wondering if the switches have degraded performance and I should have run routers.

31,898 · February 21, 2015

dude 2 people already stated http://www.gliffy.com/

Draw it -- take a crayon and napkin if you need to and then take a picture of that with your phone if need be..

"This leaves me wondering if the switches have degraded performance and I should have run routers."

And again - NO you shouldn't be running routers.. From what I can tell your running too many already

And still no make and model numbers.. I love nothing more to help people - but why is it always like pulling teeth with a pair of chopsticks to get any info worth anything to actually help them??

5,219 · February 21, 2015

OK here we go. Not very good drawing but hopefully it illustrates the setup OK. Note that I originally thought I had a router in the living room but it is in fact an 8 port switch.

The HTPC with the buffering problem is the bedroom machine which has 2 switches between it and the wireless router. I'm not sure how I would do this with fewer switches as I needed 3 in the room. the first switch in the basement has the Synology NAS connected to it and then that switch has a wire connected to the 2nd switch in the bedroom to which is the problem HTPC, AppleTV, and GoogleTV.

Also, the HTPC's are OpenElec so I won't be able to run diagnostics on the machines themselves.

11,094 · February 21, 2015

May be an issue with the htpc more than the network. As a test move it to where it is directly connected to the netgear.

31,898 · February 22, 2015

So do your appleTV and googleTV have issues playing stuff from internet?

So they run openelec - install the iperf addon

http://wiki.openelec.tv/index.php/Add-on:iperf

And test speed from windows pc

Unless you have an issue with this connection

Its most likely the htpc itself causing you problems. As you can see from my drawing I have actuall 3 switches, 2 physical and one virtual without any issues. Ping your htpc from your PC.. Is the response time under 1ms - these are typical lan speeds

D:\Dropbox\tools>hrping.exe storage.local.lan
This is hrPING v5.06.1143 by cFos Software GmbH -- http://www.cfos.de

Source address is 192.168.1.100; using ICMP echo-request, ID=7401
Pinging storage.local.lan [192.168.1.8]
with 32 bytes data (60 bytes IP):

From 192.168.1.8: bytes=60 seq=0001 TTL=128 ID=1402 time=0.572ms
From 192.168.1.8: bytes=60 seq=0002 TTL=128 ID=1403 time=0.536ms
From 192.168.1.8: bytes=60 seq=0003 TTL=128 ID=1404 time=0.620ms
From 192.168.1.8: bytes=60 seq=0004 TTL=128 ID=1405 time=0.698ms

Packets: sent=4, rcvd=4, error=0, lost=0 (0.0% loss) in 1.501638 sec
RTTs in ms: min/avg/max/dev: 0.536 / 0.606 / 0.698 / 0.060
Bandwidth in kbytes/sec: sent=0.159, rcvd=0.159

So this is across those 2 switches and the vswitch to a VM and as you can see below 1 ms.. Doesn't matter if you took 1 switch out or added another one, unless it was the crappest of crap switches your not going to see any issues. That switch going to have better switching than the switch in your router that is for sure.

February 22, 2015

Yup a drawing would be good.. So you have 2 routers off your cable modem? Yeah that is not possible - a cable "modem" doesn't do NAT and would only have 1 ethernet port. So you have a cable gateway and into that you have 2 routers, and off one router you have 2 switches?

This is not completely applicable, since he clearly has two switches coming off his Netgear router, but I thought I'd point out that most cable modems provided by the major US providers most certainly do perform NAT/PAT and usually come with at least a 4 or 5 port switch integrated. Most can also be configured for 1 to 1 NAT (Comcast, for example, calls it "true-static IP").

It is very likely that his modem is already performing NAT and assigning a DHCP outside address to the Netgear. If this is the case, he is double-NATing which, while usually not a problem, can cause issues in some edge cases. The better configuration would be to connect the Netgear router to one of the numbered ports of the cable router, change the LAN address on the Netgear to match the one assigned by the cable router, and disable DHCP on the Netgear (if the cable router is performing NAT and DHCP, the Netgear only needs to function as a switch and wireless access point).

Beyond that, I'd move equipment around to see if there is a bad cable or bad switch. Swapping the switches should be an easy way to see if that "moves" the problem. Or, as someone else suggested, moving the HTPC. In addition, swapping cables might be revealing.

Are all of the components gigabit? Are the little switches of decent quality or are they "budget" items? How old are they?

-Forjo

31,898 · February 22, 2015

"most cable modems"

This is my point "modems" do not do nat! Period - its not a "modem" if it does nat, has wifi.. If it is doing nat and modem then its a "gateway" If it does not do the modem functions and just does nat then its a router.

I understand the freaking providers use the wrong term as well.. But sorry a modem dos not do routing/wifi functions.

I have gone over this multiple times, maybe we should get them as a sticky.. While I agree yes most of the devices that they give to the users do nat and have multiple switch ports.. My whole point is that not a modem..

Here is a cable modem - it does not nat, it does not wifi -- it takes the cable connection coming in on coax and changes it to ethernet. That is all..

http://www.amazon.com/ARRIS-Motorola-SurfBoard-SB6141-DOCSIS/dp/B00AJHDZSI

This is a gateway - and since OP did not give model number, I am guessing with he ubee this is what he has or something very sim??

http://www.ubeeinteractive.com/service-providers/time-warner-cable

This is a router

http://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Nighthawk-AC1900-Gigabit-Router/dp/B00F0DD0I6

4,139 · February 22, 2015

The length of the wire could also affect performance. I know a guy who tried to run a 300 ft. Ethernet cable to his r.v. Guess what happened? He was sad because cat 5 cables have a distance limitation. I tried to explain it to him, but I may as well been beating my face with a brick. He went to WiFi, after numerous suggestions, and now he lives happily. I'm not saying that's what your problem is, hell, Budman is the best at this kind of thing, I'm just throwing it out there.

31,898 · February 22, 2015

^ quite possible could be cable issue be it bad or length.. Normally in a home its not likely to see a issue because of length..

300ft from his computer to his basement, or from basement to his bedroom.. That is one big house hehehe

4,831 · February 22, 2015

This is not completely applicable, since he clearly has two switches coming off his Netgear router, but I thought I'd point out that most cable modems provided by the major US providers most certainly do perform NAT/PAT and usually come with at least a 4 or 5 port switch integrated. Most can also be configured for 1 to 1 NAT (Comcast, for example, calls it "true-static IP").

It is very likely that his modem is already performing NAT and assigning a DHCP outside address to the Netgear. If this is the case, he is double-NATing which, while usually not a problem, can cause issues in some edge cases. The better configuration would be to connect the Netgear router to one of the numbered ports of the cable router, change the LAN address on the Netgear to match the one assigned by the cable router, and disable DHCP on the Netgear (if the cable router is performing NAT and DHCP, the Netgear only needs to function as a switch and wireless access point).

Beyond that, I'd move equipment around to see if there is a bad cable or bad switch. Swapping the switches should be an easy way to see if that "moves" the problem. Or, as someone else suggested, moving the HTPC. In addition, swapping cables might be revealing.

Are all of the components gigabit? Are the little switches of decent quality or are they "budget" items? How old are they?

-Forjo

I've seen quite the opposite for cable modems. With Suddenlink, Time Warner, and Mediacom is Missouri. NONE of them use anything besides a gateway. On the other hand, Centurylink DSL usually uses a router of some type, although, I've seen a few that aren't.

5,219 · February 22, 2015

So do your appleTV and googleTV have issues playing stuff from internet?

So they run openelec - install the iperf addon

http://wiki.openelec.tv/index.php/Add-on:iperf

And test speed from windows pc

Unless you have an issue with this connection

thisconnection.png

Its most likely the htpc itself causing you problems. As you can see from my drawing I have actuall 3 switches, 2 physical and one virtual without any issues. Ping your htpc from your PC.. Is the response time under 1ms - these are typical lan speeds

D:\Dropbox\tools>hrping.exe storage.local.lan

This is hrPING v5.06.1143 by cFos Software GmbH -- http://www.cfos.de

Source address is 192.168.1.100; using ICMP echo-request, ID=7401

Pinging storage.local.lan [192.168.1.8]

with 32 bytes data (60 bytes IP):

From 192.168.1.8: bytes=60 seq=0001 TTL=128 ID=1402 time=0.572ms

From 192.168.1.8: bytes=60 seq=0002 TTL=128 ID=1403 time=0.536ms

From 192.168.1.8: bytes=60 seq=0003 TTL=128 ID=1404 time=0.620ms

From 192.168.1.8: bytes=60 seq=0004 TTL=128 ID=1405 time=0.698ms

Packets: sent=4, rcvd=4, error=0, lost=0 (0.0% loss) in 1.501638 sec

RTTs in ms: min/avg/max/dev: 0.536 / 0.606 / 0.698 / 0.060

Bandwidth in kbytes/sec: sent=0.159, rcvd=0.159

So this is across those 2 switches and the vswitch to a VM and as you can see below 1 ms.. Doesn't matter if you took 1 switch out or added another one, unless it was the crappest of crap switches your not going to see any issues. That switch going to have better switching than the switch in your router that is for sure.

I don't use the AppleTV and GoogleTV all that much in there. I'll have to use the AppleTV a bit and see if I have any issues. I pinged the HTPC and all of them were well below 1ms.

I installed iperf but don't know what to do with it now.

Since there are no instructions anywhere, I tried ssh'ing in and typed iperf -s 192.168.1.10 (Synology NAS) and it said connection refused.

31,898 · February 22, 2015

Did you start it on the server? And that is the wrong command -s is all you need for the server, the client then connects -c ipaddress or name

So example

On my storage box I run

iperf3 -s

and on my pc iperf3 -c storage.local.lan

So lets see what kind of speeds you get.. I would hope to see in the 700s for sure.

11,851 · February 22, 2015

Roku's even have an iperf test on the "wifi secret screen"

5,219 · February 22, 2015

Did you start it on the server? And that is the wrong command -s is all you need for the server, the client then connects -c ipaddress or name

So example

On my storage box I run

iperf3 -s

and on my pc iperf3 -c storage.local.lan

ipefftest.png

So lets see what kind of speeds you get.. I would hope to see in the 700s for sure.

Oh, I thought I just had to install it on the OpenElec box. I don't think there is a package for Synology NAS's.

I ran iperf -s on the OE box and I just see "Server listening on TCP port 5001. TCP windows size..." and it just stays like that. For -c I have no idea what IP address to use. I put in 192.168.1.18 which is the IP of the OE box and I get connection refused. I tried 192.168.1.10 which is the Synology NAS and I get connection refused.

31,898 · February 22, 2015

So you need it running in 2 places. The exe can run in server mode (listen for connections) or client mode (connects to listening server)

So yes you need to run it on your openelec box, be it client or server. And then run it on your PC either client or server. And yes iperf can run on lots of different OSes and devices. I was not aware that roku had it built in - that is slick

Server side

ifperf3 -s

Client side

iperf3 -c ipaddress/nameofserver

This is the most basic simple way to run it - there are many other options you could do, etc. But this will be a basic test of bandwidth between the too boxes not taking into account any bottle necks there might be with reading/writing to a disk, etc.

5,219 · February 22, 2015

So you need it running in 2 places. The exe can run in server mode (listen for connections) or client mode (connects to listening server)

So yes you need to run it on your openelec box, be it client or server. And then run it on your PC either client or server. And yes iperf can run on lots of different OSes and devices. I was not aware that roku had it built in - that is slick

Server side

ifperf3 -s

Client side

iperf3 -c ipaddress/nameofserver

This is the most basic simple way to run it - there are many other options you could do, etc. But this will be a basic test of bandwidth between the too boxes not taking into account any bottle necks there might be with reading/writing to a disk, etc.

OK I ran iperf -s on my Windows 10 PC. I'm not aware of a way to run it on the Synology NAS so I did it on my Windows PC. I then ran iperf -c 192.168.1.40 (IP of Windows 10 PC) from my bedroom OE box.

I got a single line that said "[ 3] 0.0-10.0 sec 691 MBytes 580 Mbits/sec"

I then than it on my living room OE box which doesn't have the buffer issue and got "[ 3] 0.0-10.0 sec 1.02 GBytes 878 Mbits/sec"

These numbers are lower than what yours are, even on my living room box. Assuming we've found an issue, how do I further nail it down?

Sign In

Question about switches and routers

Recommended Posts

patseguin Global Moderator

Link to comment

Share on other sites

#Michael

Link to comment

Share on other sites

patseguin Global Moderator

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+Cryton Subscriber²

Link to comment

Share on other sites

remixedcat

Link to comment

Share on other sites

sc302 Veteran

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+BudMan MVC

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nagisan

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+BudMan MVC

Link to comment

Share on other sites

patseguin Global Moderator

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+BudMan MVC

Link to comment

Share on other sites

patseguin Global Moderator

Link to comment

Share on other sites

sc302 Veteran

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+BudMan MVC

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Forjo

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+BudMan MVC

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Obi-Wan Kenobi

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+BudMan MVC

Link to comment

Share on other sites

farmeunit

Link to comment

Share on other sites

patseguin Global Moderator

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+BudMan MVC

Link to comment

Share on other sites

remixedcat

Link to comment

Share on other sites

patseguin Global Moderator

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+BudMan MVC

Link to comment

Share on other sites

patseguin Global Moderator

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Recently Browsing 0 members